Is abstinance our only option?

[LittleDeb]

Sorry 1cor10:23

This is completely out of context here, but I will say that this is the same verse used by some to say that abortion is moral because it is legal. I pray you are not considering going down that path.

The context of the that scripture is about eating while a guest in an unbeliever’s home. It is about eating “forbidden foods.” Let’s not go there here. If you would like to argue the interpretation of that verse, please start a thread under “Sacred Scripture.”

 

[newbie1234]

This conversation is jumping all over the place. Nowhere in scripture are we commanded to have as many babies as the human is capable of. NFP is self control.

I am sorry.
I am trying to esablish how we can come to the conclusion that contraception is a sin?
Many of the verses in the link you gave are vague at best.
My point on nfp is that if you won’t use contraception because it is agaist the will of God to multiply then you cannot use nfp because it is also against the same will.

 

[newbie1234]

This is completely out of context here, but I will say that this is the same verse used by some to say that abortion is moral because it is legal. I pray you are not considering going down that path.

The context of the that scripture is about eating while a guest in an unbeliever’s home. It is about eating “forbidden foods.” Let’s not go there here. If you would like to argue the interpretation of that verse, please start a thread under “Sacred Scripture.”

If we go to heb13:4, the bed undefiled. How does tradition define that or what are your interpretations?
The verse says God will judge fornicators and adulterers.
Does use of contraception fall under fornication or adultery?

 

[newbie1234]

This conversation is jumping all over the place. Nowhere in scripture are we commanded to have as many babies as the human is capable of. NFP is self control.

I believe self control is abstenance, not trying to get around the system

 

[MilesXpisti]

There seems to be a problem, not in understanding what NFP is, or which it is licit as opposed to ABC, but in when precisely it is licit to use NFP. If you use it for health reasons, or because you could not support children financially, and the internal disposition would be that you would welcome the child otherwise, this is licit. If you use it becaue you just don’t want a child, then the internal disposition is the same as if you were using ABC, and thus makes it illicit. This is what the Church refers to as just reason:

Catechism of the Catholic Church #2368

A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.

 

[newbie1234]

There seems to be a problem, not in understanding what NFP is, or which it is licit as opposed to ABC, but in when precisely it is licit to use NFP. If you use it for health reasons, or because you could not support children financially, and the internal disposition would be that you would welcome the child otherwise, this is licit. If you use it becaue you just don’t want a child, then the internal disposition is the same as if you were using ABC, and thus makes it illicit. This is what the Church refers to as just reason:

That is a good quote.
If we go to 1cor7:4
man and wife- authority over each others body
Do you think the church would have any authority over either of their bodies?

 

[LittleDeb]

I am sorry.
I am trying to esablish how we can come to the conclusion that contraception is a sin?
Many of the verses in the link you gave are vague at best.
My point on nfp is that if you won’t use contraception because it is agaist the will of God to multiply then you cannot use nfp because it is also against the same will.

Ahhhh I see where you are confused. If you would like to have a conversation on why NFP is not contraception we can. It is off-topic here. Please start a new thread and PM me if you would like me to participate. Since I am currently pregnant, no one would say that I am refusing to multiply.

As is often said around here, “NFP is not an alternative to contraception. It is an alternative to total abstinence.”

The main theme here is that contraception is not going to help the OP. Contraception is bad for marriage. If they refuse to chart for NFP then total abstinence is their only option, both morally and for health. Contraception has a terribly high failure rate. It just fails many times when people aren’t fertile.

 

[newbie1234]

Mike, the problem here is that you believe the Church can “revisit” the issue of contraception and alow it. The Church cannot. Contraception is intrinsically disordered, meaning it is always sinful-- and that is a part of the deposit of faith. The Deposit of Faith cannot change.

Your statement above is equivalent of saying “The Church should revisit the stealing issue, at least on a limited basis” or “The Church should revisit the abortion issue, at least on a limited basis”.

It’s not possible to “revisit” what is an intrinsic evil.

Is there any scriptural basis for the statement that contraception is intrinsicly evil. Or is that just your opinion?

 

[MilesXpisti]

That is a good quote.
If we go to 1cor7:4
man and wife- authority over each others body
Do you think the church would have any authority over either of their bodies?

Where all matters of faith and morals are concerned, the Church doesn’t just have authority. It has supreme authority. People often question what business the Chuch has in the goings-on of people’s bedrooms, but sexuality is part of marriage and in its two aspects, procreative and unitive, it is the manner in which God intended His children to live and transmit life.

 

[MilesXpisti]

Is there any scriptural basis for the statement that contraception is intrinsicly evil. Or is that just your opinion?

For Sacred Scripture, see Genesis 38:8-10. But the Magisterium of the Church, best embodied in Paul VI’s Humanum Vitæ, should be cause enough to follow.

 

[newbie1234]

Ahhhh I see where you are confused. If you would like to have a conversation on why NFP is not contraception we can. It is off-topic here. Please start a new thread and PM me if you would like me to participate. Since I am currently pregnant, no one would say that I am refusing to multiply.

As is often said around here, “NFP is not an alternative to contraception. It is an alternative to total abstinence.”

The main theme here is that contraception is not going to help the OP. Contraception is bad for marriage. If they refuse to chart for NFP then total abstinence is their only option, both morally and for health. Contraception has a terribly high failure rate. It just fails many times when people aren’t fertile.

Are you saying that condoms have a high failure rate and they are bad for marriage or that they are a sin against God and they should not be used for that reason.
Oh and congratulations on the baby

 

[katy]

Please remember that abc FAILS rather frequently. Believe me, I know.

 

[mikew262]

Contraception has a terribly high failure rate.

Huh? What is your definition of high failure rate? 1%, 3%, 10%, etc. If used properly, contraception has a very low failure (under 5%) rate, depending upon the method. NFP, on the other hand, if not followed perfectly, can have a failure rate as high as 25%, If procedures are followed almost perfectly, the rate is about 3%. My source is Wikipedia which gets it’s stats from stated sources.

 

[Karin]

Huh? What is your definition of high failure rate? 1%, 3%, 10%, etc. If used properly, contraception has a very low failure (under 5%) rate, depending upon the method. NFP, on the other hand, if not followed perfectly, can have a failure rate as high as 25%, If procedures are followed almost perfectly, the rate is about 3%. My source is Wikipedia which gets it’s stats from stated sources.

I think you will find certain forms of NFP (Creighton) low failure rates

 

[newbie1234]

For Sacred Scripture, see Genesis 38:8-10. But the Magisterium of the Church, best embodied in Paul VI’s Humanum Vitæ, should be cause enough to follow.

Onan disobeyed Judah’s request to make an heir for his brother. So he was killed.
The disobedience was in not obeying the fathers command, not that he emmited on the ground.
If Onan refused to have sex with her, he probably would have been killed for disobedience also.

 

[newbie1234]

Please remember that abc FAILS rather frequently. Believe me, I know.

Do you feel it is a sin to use birth control?

 

[Karin]

Do you feel it is a sin to use birth control?

I know you where not asking me personally but I will answer YES it is a sin to use ABC for birth control purposes…

 

[LittleDeb]

Are you saying that condoms have a high failure rate and they are bad for marriage or that they are a sin against God and they should not be used for that reason.
Oh and congratulations on the baby

Yes, contraception is bad for marriage. Contracepting couples have a 50% divorce rate while non-contracepting couples have a rate of less than 5%. You tell me. Does that mean contraception is a sin against God?

I am a Catholic. When you ask me a question about sin, I am going to use both faith and reason to come up with a response. I am not against contraception just because “the Church says so.” Although that alone would be a good enough reason. As a Catholic I am encouraged to do the research and find out why the Church has always taught this Truth. That is why I gave the link with the Early Church Fathers’ teachings about it.

Condoms have a very high real use failure rate. The stats touted on condom success always have to include the words “constant and consistent use.” We have had many threads on the topic. Condoms don’t stop conception (or diseases) with any real consistency.

As I said, please do the research into your own religion and find out what it taught about contraception prior to 1930. Scripture has always said contraception is a sin. Scripture hasn’t changed since it was finally compiled around 390. (Well except for protestant scripture which changed around 1500.)

I even did the research from a secular point of view and found that contraception was bad. It led me back to full union with the Church.

Thanks for the congrats on the baby. God has truly blessed us. Please pray for a healthy pregnancy.

 

[newbie1234]

Where all matters of faith and morals are concerned, the Church doesn’t just have authority. It has supreme authority. People often question what business the Chuch has in the goings-on of people’s bedrooms, but sexuality is part of marriage and in its two aspects, procreative and unitive, it is the manner in which God intended His children to live and transmit life.

In 1cor7:2 it says that man and woman should marry to avoid sexual immorality. It doesn’t say anything about children in this verse.

 

[newbie1234]

Yes, contraception is bad for marriage. Contracepting couples have a 50% divorce rate while non-contracepting couples have a rate of less than 5%. You tell me. Does that mean contraception is a sin against God?

I am a Catholic. When you ask me a question about sin, I am going to use both faith and reason to come up with a response. I am not against contraception just because “the Church says so.” Although that alone would be a good enough reason. As a Catholic I am encouraged to do the research and find out why the Church has always taught this Truth. That is why I gave the link with the Early Church Fathers’ teachings about it.

Condoms have a very high real use failure rate. The stats touted on condom success always have to include the words “constant and consistent use.” We have had many threads on the topic. Condoms don’t stop conception (or diseases) with any real consistency.

As I said, please do the research into your own religion and find out what it taught about contraception prior to 1930. Scripture has always said contraception is a sin. Scripture hasn’t changed since it was finally compiled around 390. (Well except for protestant scripture which changed around 1500.)

I even did the research from a secular point of view and found that contraception was bad. It led me back to full union with the Church.

Thanks for the congrats on the baby. God has truly blessed us. Please pray for a healthy pregnancy.

I can find no verse in the bible with the word contraception in it.
So how could the bible address it as sin?