Is all lying mortal sin?

[Pug]

BibleReader:

Sometimes, one is morally required to tell really effective lies.

I am a terrible liar. Are you saying I am authorized or even obligated to practice? There is no other way that I will be up to the task of telling really effective lies on those few occassions where is it morally obligatory for me to be good at it.

I find it unlikely that I am morally required to tell effective lies. Since when does the morality of our actions depend on the success of the endeavor? If I plan on killing my mother, deliberately aim and shoot her eight times, but somehow fail to kill her, I am still very, very guilty. My heart is just as black either way, live or die.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi,

DJMarshall85:

Ok. I’m sure I might get a few disagreements…

Yes

DJMarshall85:

Person: No, there are no Jews here! You look hungry soldier, would you care to have a small pastry?

This person did not lie. In fact, he was refering to the exact spot he and the soldier were standing on. He was using discreet language (even though the soldier did not know that). So he was telling the truth.

He was still using deception which is the essence of lying. It’s the spirit of the law not the letter of the law.

I only consider lying intrinsically evil if the definition of “lying” includes “not for a just cause”.

I consider that deception, like any other act, can be accepted if it is the only means to prevent a greater evil such as serious harm.

As someone else pointed out, lying is no different than any other act that is wrong unless for a just cause.

 

[BibleReader]

DJMarshall85: Soldier: Do you have any Jewish families in this house? Tell us the truth, or you will all be taken away to Auschwitz!

Person: No, there are no Jews here! You look hungry soldier, would you care to have a small pastry?

This person did not lie. In fact, he was refering to the exact spot he and the soldier were standing on. He was using discreet language (even though the soldier did not know that). So he was telling the truth. It would be different if he said In this house (which would be lying) instead of here. And he also distracted the soldier further by changing the subject.

So, it is possible to not lie in these situations. But then again, if you did, it would be with minimal fault, and would not be mortal sin (although it would still be a small venial sin, as lying is intrinsically evil, and a person cannot commit a bad act, even if the intention is good.)

So long as you agree that ethics are situational, such that the people who risked their lives for the Jewish children hidden in their home are *saints, *then we agree.

In that situation, God doesn’t want your mind to be filled with moral quibbles. He wants you to tell really, really good lies, for the sake of those Jewish children.

There is not even minimal fault in the lies told in this hypothetical. The liar in the hypothetical is a moral hero.

 

[deb1]

DJMarshall85:

Now, notice it does not say that it is OK to lie in these situations! You can be silent, which would bear consequences for yourself in the fact that the soldiers would still come in. Or the conversation could go something like this:

Soldier: Do you have any Jewish families in this house? Tell us the truth, or you will all be taken away to Auschwitz!

Person: No, there are no Jews here! You look hungry soldier, would you care to have a small pastry?

This person did not lie. In fact, he was refering to the exact spot he and the soldier were standing on. He was using discreet language (even though the soldier did not know that). So he was telling the truth. It would be different if he said In this house (which would be lying) instead of here. And he also distracted the soldier further by changing the subject.

So, it is possible to not lie in these situations. But then again, if you did, it would be with minimal fault, and would not be mortal sin (although it would still be a small venial sin, as lying is intrinsically evil, and a person cannot commit a bad act, even if the intention is good.)

This is still deception. There are people who use such reasoning in everyday life. My mother was one. If a question wasn’t asked in a specific manner then she would simply leave out information. Oddly, enough she still claims that she has never lied in her life and I suppose by her distorted reasoning that she hasn’t. I’d much rather know someone who understands the difference between a lie and truth then someone, like my mom, who undergoes mental gymnastics to justify their dishonesty.

I still see only two responses to the OP. You lie to protect an innocent life.

You’re honest and admit that the people are hiding in your house, making you partially responsible for their subsequent murder.

 

[Joan_M]

Why is it so hard to understand? In the hypothetical position used to validate lying the person still cannot lie - but can use “discrete language” (as per DJMarshall85) because the questioner has absolutely no right to the truth.

Evading giving a direct answer is not lying. No one is required to give information to someone who has no right to that information. There is no need to lie, and using language that confuses the issue is not lying.

You are not deceiving the person. You are, quite simply, not giving them something they have no right to.

This subject comes up time and time again. The answer does not change. If someone has the right to the truth - give it to them, no matter how hard for you. If they have no right to the truth, do not, but do not lie.

 

[DJMarshall85]

deb1:

This is still deception. There are people who use such reasoning in everyday life.

You are just witholding information from someone who has no right to it… Like I said before, culpability is at a minimum if you do lie, but it is still lie, still a sin (most likely venial), so you should not do it. Lying in it self is an intrinsically evil act, and nothing good can come from it. This is why we use the method I stated base on the CCC. People are just as much a hero, and they avoid the sin of lying. Also, just becuase a sin is venial vs. mortal, does not make it alright to do it. For love of God, we should distance our selves from ALL sin, no matter how small, because it is all offending to God.

And for people who continually use this method in every day life (such as your mom), that is wrong. In your heart you are using the discreet language as a way of lying, which is just as sinful as actually telling a non-truth. This is why the method of discreet language should only be used in the most desperate circumstances (Nazi Germany) and in all other situations a person should tell the truth.

Pax,
Dean

Well, there I go again with my two cents… :twocents:

 

[MeaCulpa]

Catholic morality traditionally holds that lies, of themselves, are venial sins. They may, of course, become grave under extraordinary circumstances, such as telling a lie under oath or denying one’s religion as a Catholic or a lie that results in harming another person’s reputation, etc.

 

[BibleReader]

Joan M:

Why is it so hard to understand? In the hypothetical position used to validate lying the person still cannot lie - but can use “discrete language” (as per DJMarshall85) because the questioner has absolutely no right to the truth.

Evading giving a direct answer is not lying. No one is required to give information to someone who has no right to that information. There is no need to lie, and using language that confuses the issue is not lying.

You are not deceiving the person. You are, quite simply, not giving them something they have no right to.

This subject comes up time and time again. The answer does not change. If someone has the right to the truth - give it to them, no matter how hard for you. If they have no right to the truth, do not, but do not lie.

Nah! You’re wrong on this one, JoanM. The Merchants of Evil listen for “discreet answers.” Don’t give “discreet answers.” Tell the best, mostly-skillfully told lies you can think of – lie, lie, lie, lie, lie! Even ask for God’s HELP in your prayers in composing your lies to save the children.

Once again, if you are excepting-out of your definition of “lying” deception having a moral purpose, so that the deceitful things you say and do look and sound like precisely what I am referring to, when I say, "Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie to save the children," then we agree.

 

[Maariia59]

I know this is an old thread, but I don’t feel like starting a new one haha.

So just to get clear things up, because I tend to get confused really easily.

Lying is only a mortal sin when it includes: harming someone in general, denying your religion as a Catholic and lying under an oath. But if the lie doesn’t include any of that and is simply just a false statement then it is venial, am I correct?

 

[spirocatania]

can you help me to determine if this is grave.

i lied to a customer today.

she wanted more chicken wings and i said we dont have anymore we only have whats in the case. i was in a situation where the one for sale was at a cheaper price then the one in the cool room and once the one in the case which is cheaper was gone i was going to change the price back to normal

once i lied i felt I did commit a sin and i was going to just say we have and give her what she wanted but then there is the problem of selling the extra wings i got from the coolroom at the wrong price.

i’m thinking this would only be a venial sin. but i knew i did it, i know lying is wrong but i do not think this is a big lie. but still a lie.

what do you think. just a venial sin or is it a mortal sin. today is ash wednesday and in a few hours i’m going to mass. wanting to take communion.

 

[Rence]

can you help me to determine if this is grave.

i lied to a customer today.

she wanted more chicken wings and i said we dont have anymore we only have whats in the case. i was in a situation where the one for sale was at a cheaper price then the one in the cool room and once the one in the case which is cheaper was gone i was going to change the price back to normal

once i lied i felt I did commit a sin and i was going to just say we have and give her what she wanted but then there is the problem of selling the extra wings i got from the coolroom at the wrong price.

i’m thinking this would only be a venial sin. but i knew i did it, i know lying is wrong but i do not think this is a big lie. but still a lie.

what do you think. just a venial sin or is it a mortal sin. today is ash wednesday and in a few hours i’m going to mass. wanting to take communion.

If you’re concerned about taking Communion, I would advise you to call the priest beforehand and tell him what you did and answer any relevent questions he may have and have him direct you.

 

[spirocatania]

does anyone know

 

[spirocatania]

please help

 

[Ron_Conte]

can you help me to determine if this is grave.

i lied to a customer today.

she wanted more chicken wings and i said we dont have anymore we only have whats in the case. i was in a situation where the one for sale was at a cheaper price then the one in the cool room and once the one in the case which is cheaper was gone i was going to change the price back to normal

once i lied i felt I did commit a sin and i was going to just say we have and give her what she wanted but then there is the problem of selling the extra wings i got from the coolroom at the wrong price.

i’m thinking this would only be a venial sin. but i knew i did it, i know lying is wrong but i do not think this is a big lie. but still a lie.

what do you think. just a venial sin or is it a mortal sin. today is ash wednesday and in a few hours i’m going to mass. wanting to take communion.

This type of lie is a venial sin.

Lying is intrinsically evil, and therefore always immoral, regardless of intention or circumstances. But unless the lie concerns a grave matter, or is accompanied by a gravely immoral intention or gravely harmful consequences (not outweighed by good consequences), the lie is venial.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Lying is intrinsically evil because the act has an evil moral object.

Lying is the direct and deliberate deprivation of truth from an assertion.

All intrinsically evil acts are direct and deliberate.
All intrinsically evil acts are always immoral because the moral object is evil.
Intrinsically evil acts are only gravely immoral if the moral object is gravely contrary to love of God and neighbor.
Intrinsically evil acts are immoral because the chosen act is inherently ordered to an evil end.

Lying is intrinsically evil:

CCC 1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means.

It is contrary to the teaching of the Church to claim that lying is not always immoral, or that lying is justified by intention or circumstances, or that a change in intention, or a change in circumstances, changes the moral object and makes a lie no longer a lie.

 

[michaeldaniels]

I recently lied to my employer about being out of the office yesterday…I was supposed to visit some businesses to get some new clients, but in all honesty…I was not trained to do that kind of work…I am not a salesman…economic times has required me to take on dual roles…either way, back to the point. I didn’t visit any businesses…instead I went to confession and Mass at a Church close to the city I was supposed to be working in…this morning, he as me how it went and instead of telling him the truth, I said I visited a couple of places and spoke to some people, etc…It was wrong and I should have just been truthful and I did it out of fear of the consequences…Is that a mortal sin…or better, is lying in that situation grave matter?

 

[michaeldaniels]

bump…any advice on the last question I asked??

 

[Pug]

I recently lied to my employer about being out of the office yesterday…I was supposed to visit some businesses to get some new clients, but in all honesty…I was not trained to do that kind of work…I am not a salesman…economic times has required me to take on dual roles…either way, back to the point. I didn’t visit any businesses…instead I went to confession and Mass at a Church close to the city I was supposed to be working in…this morning, he as me how it went and instead of telling him the truth, I said I visited a couple of places and spoke to some people, etc…It was wrong and I should have just been truthful and I did it out of fear of the consequences…Is that a mortal sin…or better, is lying in that situation grave matter?

First, I am answering about grave matter, not mortal sin. Grave matter requires other conditions to be met before it is an actual mortal sin, okay? I am answering more from my perspective, like if I did it at my work. You know ultimately what happened, or, rather, God does, not me.

If it were me, I’d label it grave. If I were required to travel somewhere and do some specific job there, and then report back, but I didn’t do it and lied about it when I got back, I vote for grave. It is clearly not a lie about something that your average employer would consider trivial. I substantially failed to do the work assigned, on my own accord, which is a failure of at least justice. It might also be theft/fraud, depending on factors like if I submitted gas receipts for my trip to my employer. The employer will likely care about such a lie. The employer may make decisions about that territory that could affect his income based upon him thinking the the territory was unreceptive, and if he knew the truth, he also might immediately need to put another person on the territory. If it substantially affects his business, then the lie is a failure in the golden rule and charity, because the lack of truth is harming him, and it could be remedied merely by letting him know the truth about the territory. Depending on how much each of these things weighs in for you, it could be grave.

Just advice, I think you might want to brainstorm about this problem of having a job that you don’t feel you have the training for. Could your boss send you to a seminar or something to get you up to speed? I think your boss would benefit from knowing you need some training. That way he could reassign some of your duties to someone else or get you trained.

 

[Rence]

I recently lied to my employer about being out of the office yesterday…I was supposed to visit some businesses to get some new clients, but in all honesty…I was not trained to do that kind of work…I am not a salesman…economic times has required me to take on dual roles…either way, back to the point. I didn’t visit any businesses…instead I went to confession and Mass at a Church close to the city I was supposed to be working in…this morning, he as me how it went and instead of telling him the truth, I said I visited a couple of places and spoke to some people, etc…It was wrong and I should have just been truthful and I did it out of fear of the consequences…Is that a mortal sin…or better, is lying in that situation grave matter?

Well, to be honest I don’t know if this is a grave matter or a mortal sin or a venial sin. But I do know that you lied to your employer regarding a job that you are being paid to do, and he is trusting you to do the job. So you didn’t just lie, you didn’t do something you got paid to do, and then you lied about it. Do you feel that it’s the equivalent of stealing wages for work not done? and if so, is that grave, mortal or venial? And it was something you willfully did, after you had been there, attended confession and Mass. I’m assuming you didn’t you talk to your priest in confession about it? What consequences to you fear by being honest with your employer and tell him that you are not trained to do that assignment? Are you worried about getting fired? Or about displeasing him? Or were you embarassed? Or are you worried he might train you and add that to your responsibilities (though, it seems he already has made it a responsibility).

Whatever all the reasons are and regardless of what kind of category the sins fall under, I hope you don’t do it again, because if your employer finds out it could potentially stain your reputation and you could lose your job. It’s better to be honest with him and deal with the consequences than lie and get caught and be fired for cheating/lying or whatever it is. You want to try and avoid putting yourself in a situation where you’re suddenly out of a job. Just MOHO…

 

[michaeldaniels]

Let me clarify…I am a broker…I work on commissions, I do receive a modest draw against my commissions…but I am not a salary employee. I am not even required to be in the office per say…but I was dishonest about why I was absent. While in confession yesterday, I actually told the priest that I had been dishonest about why I wasn’t in the office today…and I had no intention or lying to my boss when asked…I was actually hoping the conversation about my day wouldn’t even come up…but I got caught of guard and when asked, I just blurted out a lie…and then after the initial lie, I made some supporting comments, which were also lies to make the first lie sound believable. I don’t know why…I was just scared…scared of being chastised, being fired…who knows…and I know it doesn’t make it right no matter what. So what you think?

Well, to be honest I don’t know if this is a grave matter or a mortal sin or a venial sin. But I do know that you lied to your employer regarding a job that you are being paid to do, and he is trusting you to do the job. So you didn’t just lie, you didn’t do something you got paid to do, and then you lied about it. Do you feel that it’s the equivalent of stealing wages for work not done? and if so, is that grave, mortal or venial? And it was something you willfully did, after you had been there, attended confession and Mass. I’m assuming you didn’t you talk to your priest in confession about it? What consequences to you fear by being honest with your employer and tell him that you are not trained to do that assignment? Are you worried about getting fired? Or about displeasing him? Or were you embarassed? Or are you worried he might train you and add that to your responsibilities (though, it seems he already has made it a responsibility).

Whatever all the reasons are and regardless of what kind of category the sins fall under, I hope you don’t do it again, because if your employer finds out it could potentially stain your reputation and you could lose your job. It’s better to be honest with him and deal with the consequences than lie and get caught and be fired for cheating/lying or whatever it is. You want to try and avoid putting yourself in a situation where you’re suddenly out of a job. Just MOHO…