Is almost everyone in Hell?

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Sorry, Luigi, Fr. Barron’s view on hell is that of a modernist. I’ve already seen his video on hell. I can’t watch his videos anymore lest I endanger my soul. I’m sorry that we disagree with each other. Please know that I mean you no harm: I just think it is more charitable to warn people about what Jesus, the Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and many Saints have taught about the fewness of the saved, then not to warn them. I’m not trying to get people to be hopeless, but vigilant. I want as many souls in heaven as possible! Best wishes and God bless you.🙂
Okie dokie. 🙂
 
Not looking forward to my time in Purgatory now :o
Purgatory can be avoided if you atone for all your sins on earth. Love and make sacrifices for the love of God. Charity is more purifying than the flames of purgatory, says St. Therese. To have perfect charity, strive for a perfect union with God: pray, do everything for God’s glory and for the salvation of souls, make many sacrifices for the love of God and love Him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus – He’ll lead you right up to heaven via the Way of the Cross! God bless you.
 
Luigi Daniele responded : "But you can in no way “earn” your salvation. Only God could do that, and He did – in the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ."

Well, that sounds real nice, but it means little.

For instance, if I went from place-to-place raping and pillaging, most people (myself included) would assume that I have NOT earned my Salvation (which means I am saved from Hell).

The way you present things, raping and pillaging have NOTHING to do with my ability to go to Heaven.
While in the abstract, I can “BUY” this (that God can do whatever God wants to do), it would seem counterproductive for God to behave this way.
Of course, men think like men, but GOD thinks like God.
 
The Church teaches that hell exists, and the possibility of ending up there also exists. It has been rightly pointed out that we on earth do not know who, if any, are actually damned.

What bothers me is when I hear people sound as though they are perhaps secretly hoping that hell will be well-populated! I am probably misunderstanding their well-intentioned warnings, but the message can come across to me as all cold, hard justice, with no trace of mercy. How can such a pessimistic view be reconciled with the infinite mercy of God?

When I hear more talk of hell than of heaven, I am reminded of our Holy Father Francis’ words, “There are Christians whose lives seem like Lent without Easter.”

I fully appreciate the warnings, and like others here I try to live my own life so as not to end up in hell. But when it come to the fate of any one else, I side with Von Balthasar, as he proposed in his book, Dare we Hope “That All Men Be Saved”? This is the hope I have, that all will be saved.
Perhaps the difference is that I don’t view God as having anything to do with it. God has everything to do with man’s salvation, but nothing to do with man’s damnation. God is not a variable, he is a constant. If it is the case that most of the world dies clinging to mortal sin, then most of the world will be in Hell.

When a person dies, they will go to where they belong, 100% of the time. That means the right thing always happens. This is not pessimistic.
 
Luigi Daniele responded : "But you can in no way “earn” your salvation. Only God could do that, and He did – in the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ."

Well, that sounds real nice, but it means little.

For instance, if I went from place-to-place raping and pillaging, most people (myself included) would assume that I have NOT earned my Salvation (which means I am saved from Hell).
They can certainly assume that, but they would/might be wrong. 😉 And they’d be “judging their neighbor”, no?
The way you present things, raping and pillaging have NOTHING to do with my ability to go to Heaven.
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Didn’t say that. It is better to follow the rules because you love Him than because you fear Him, no? 😉

Obviously either will get you to Heaven. 🙂 Loving Him is just more satisfying and a better way of showing your appreciation for His sacrifice.

And, again, I wouldn’t take the chance of not making it into Heaven by raping and pillaging. You never know. 😉
 
God is all merciful and all just (fair). He has given us the law: if we ignore it and die in mortal sin we will certainly be damned: if we obey it, and die in a state of grace we shall certainly be saved. Because God is merciful, he gives us many helps throughout our lives to obey him. Because he is just, he rewards the good and punishes the evil that we do … and he will not be mocked – those who deny him in this life, he will deny in the next. Jesus Himself has spoken these words in the holy Scriptures. If we do not merit heaven: if we are not justified, that is, if we do not have faith and are without charitable works, then we can’t expect to be rewarded with heaven without being presumptuous. Presumption is a sin against the Holy Ghost which will not be forgiven, so let us never be presumptuous.
 
Von Baltahsar was a Modernist. Listen to what Jesus Christ, the Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, and other Saints (not one of them a Modernist) have taught about the fewness of the saved. saintsquotes.net/Selection%20-%20Fewness.html
Is Pope Emeritus Benedict also a modernist? Because he had some words of praise for Hans Urs Von Balthasar:

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/benxvi_praiseshub_oct05.asp

Now if you are one of those who think Pope Benedict is a modernist, I doubt you and I can find much common ground.

Do you mind if I ask, understanding the reality of Purgatory, if you were to get to Heaven and see Hitler there, or anyone else who had done horrible evil while on earth, would you be greatly disappointed? Angry at God? If so, wouldn’t this be just like the brother of the Prodigal Son, who was incensed that the Father forgave his wicked brother? Now I know that the Prodigal had to ask for forgiveness. But is it not possible that at the moment of death, we each of us will have our eyes opened by God’s mercy so that we will make the choice for God, for Heaven? This is the hope that I hold. It is not a proclamation of Universal Salvation, which is not what Von Balthasar proposed either, but a hope that it might be so.
 
Is Pope Emeritus Benedict also a modernist? Because he had some words of praise for Hans Urs Von Balthasar:

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/benxvi_praiseshub_oct05.asp

Now if you are one of those who think Pope Benedict is a modernist, I doubt you and I can find much common ground.

Do you mind if I ask, understanding the reality of Purgatory, if you were to get to Heaven and see Hitler there, or anyone else who had done horrible evil while on earth, would you be greatly disappointed? Angry at God? If so, wouldn’t this be just like the brother of the Prodigal Son, who was incensed that the Father forgave his wicked brother? Now I know that the Prodigal had to ask for forgiveness. But is it not possible that at the moment of death, we each of us will have our eyes opened by God’s mercy so that we will make the choice for God, for Heaven? This is the hope that I hold. It is not a proclamation of Universal Salvation, which is not what Von Balthasar proposed either, but a hope that it might be so.
I am very well aware that Benedict has said the same thing as Von Balthasar – and I disapprove of his words too. I am a traditionalist, christofirst, and can not say what I think about Benedict on these CA forums without risk, so I won’t. If I called Benedict a Modernist, a moderator could take issue with what I have said and give me an infraction. But I can tell you that if I was in Purgatory or Heaven and saw Hitler there I would not be angry at our Lord in the least – I would be happy that such an evil man while on earth repented just before his death unto the glory of God. God is glorified with each saved soul, chrristofirst, and I rejoice in His goodness and glory. It is very wrong and very unfair of you to think that I could get angry at God for a good thing like a wicked man’s repentance and God’s forgiveness … I have even stated in a previous post that God is all just (fair). Do you doubt that I think He is just, or were you just being unkind and unfair by asking me your question about Hitler?
 
I am very well aware that Benedict has said the same thing as Von Balthasar – and I disapprove of his words too. I am a traditionalist, christofirst, and can not say what I think about Benedict on these CA forums without risk, so I won’t. If I called Benedict a Modernist, a moderator could take issue with what I have said and give me an infraction. But I can tell you that if I was in Purgatory or Heaven and saw Hitler there I would not be angry at our Lord in the least – I would be happy that such an evil man while on earth repented just before his death unto the glory of God. God is glorified with each saved soul, chrristofirst, and I rejoice in His goodness and glory. It is very wrong and very unfair of you to think that I could get angry at God for a good thing like a wicked man’s repentance and God’s forgiveness … I have even stated in a previous post that God is all just (fair). Do you doubt that I think He is just, or were you just being unkind and unfair by asking me your question about Hitler?
Thank you for your response. I did not mean to attack you with the Hitler question. He represents an epitome of human evil, certainly testing the limits of our human capacity for forgiveness (but not God’s), and I am heartened by the way you responded. You are certainly entitled to your convictions regarding Modernism, just as I am free to disagree with you. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but if God is truly as rigid and inflexible as portrayed by some of your posts, then I am in real trouble!! So kindly pray for me, that if I am in error - if it is wrong for me to hope for the salvation of all - that I will see the light before its too late, and I will pray for you too. Then, should we meet in heaven, after we thank God, we can thank each other.
 
I am a traditionalist, christofirst, and can not say what I think about Benedict on these CA forums without risk, so I won’t. If I called Benedict a Modernist, a moderator could take issue with what I have said and give me an infraction.
Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, I would also risk many infractions and potential banning if I wrote about the extent of my spiritual interests. This might be a good time to recommend a wonderful film I saw this weekend: its called Thomas Keating: A Rising Tide of Silence. You really should see it if you get the chance! 😃
 
Thank you for your response. I did not mean to attack you with the Hitler question. He represents an epitome of human evil, certainly testing the limits of our human capacity for forgiveness (but not God’s), and I am heartened by the way you responded. You are certainly entitled to your convictions regarding Modernism, just as I am free to disagree with you. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but if God is truly as rigid and inflexible as portrayed by some of your posts, then I am in real trouble!! So kindly pray for me, that if I am in error - if it is wrong for me to hope for the salvation of all - that I will see the light before its too late, and I will pray for you too. Then, should we meet in heaven, after we thank God, we can thank each other.
Thanks so much for your charity and understanding, christoforst. God bless you! I only believe the way that I do because of what has been taught by Jesus, Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and many Saints – not based on any of my own teachings. See the following link for their teachings on the fewness of the saved: saintsquotes.net/Selection%20-%20Fewness.html Not one of these teachings comes from me, but from the Saints- - I just share these quotes with people because I want them to see that they need to be very vigilant (like the Church teaches) if they want to save their souls. These quotes do not point to a rigid God, either – not at all, But he certainly is all just (all fair) and is not mocked – just like he says in the Bible. God bless you and Mary keep you, christochrist! You are in my prayers. I hope to be able to meet you in heaven one day.🙂
 
Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, I would also risk many infractions and potential banning if I wrote about the extent of my spiritual interests. This might be a good time to recommend a wonderful film I saw this weekend: its called Thomas Keating: A Rising Tide of Silence. You really should see it if you get the chance! 😃
Thanks for your thoughtfulness, christochrist, but is the film about centering prayer? CAF doesn’t permit us to post about centering prayer I imagine because it, like Eastern prayer, is not safe. I 'm afraid I shouldn’t watch the film.
 
This is what Jesus was asked about the saved (Luke 13:22 - 30):

"22. And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
  1. Then said one to him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said to them,
  2. Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
  3. When once the master of the house is risen up, and has shut to the door, and you begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence you are:
  4. Then shall you begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in your presence, and you have taught in our streets.
  5. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence you are; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.
  6. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
  7. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
  8. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last."
And He also said this in Luke 18: 26-27:

26 "Those who heard this said, “Then who can be saved?”

27 And he said, “What is impossible for human beings is possible for God."

Could be that when God said, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”, God meant it, what do you think?
 
And He also said this in Luke 18: 26-27:

26 "Those who heard this said, “Then who can be saved?”

27 And he said, “What is impossible for human beings is possible for God."

Could be that when God said, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”, God meant it, what do you think?
Yes, His Ways and Thoughts are not our ways and thoughts. And He is all just (all fair) and will not be mocked, so I fear for the souls who mock him – they will go to hell.
 
Yes, His Ways and Thoughts are not our ways and thoughts. And He is all just (all fair) and will not be mocked, so I fear for the souls who mock him – they will go to hell.
Ever experienced hell?

Do you think/believe that God created hell or allows us to build our own hell or is something else or just don’t know?
 
Ever experienced hell?

Do you think/believe that God created hell or allows us to build our own hell or is something else or just don’t know?
I believe what the Church teaches about hell – that it is a place of fire, torment and punishment reserved for the Devil, the fallen angels and damned souls. It was not created by God during the creation of the heavens and the earth – it wasn’t even needed – but came to be when the Devil and the other fallen Angels had fallen into their apostasy. I believe that the Church teaches that hell was never created by God but simply entered existence as a result of the Devil’s fall. People who live very disobedient to God in this life can experience a foretaste of hell, just as people who live very obedient to him can experience a foretaste of heaven, especially with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Blessed Sacrament with us. Saints who were martyrs went through some extremely painful and ugly torments, but they had peace and joy in their hearts to die for Jesus Christ, and so their very painful and ugly torments weren’t a foretaste of hell for them, but was something quite different – a preparation for heaven. Some good people go through some very painful and ugly experiences that can seem very hellish to them, but all the torments on earth combined can not compare to the torments found in purgatory (not to mention in hell) says Church’s theologians. I’ve lived through some painful and scary experiences, at least two of which were very bad. But as incredibly painful as they were, and as much as one of them had made me feel I had seen a glimpse of hell, I now know that it could never ever truly compare to the extremely painful fires, the utter bitter despair, and the bitter hopelessness found only in that real place the Church calls hell (located, I believe, in the fiery core of the earth). I now know that no experience on earth could ever truly compare to the actual torments of hell, as extremely “hellish” as they may feel (in horrific Communist prisons, etc.) – those living through a hellish experience on earth still have God and Mary to cling to, which the damned do not have in hell. God bless you.
 
I believe what the Church teaches about hell – that it is a place of fire, torment and punishment reserved for the Devil, the fallen angels and damned souls. It was not created by God during the creation of the heavens and the earth – it wasn’t even needed – but came to be when the Devil and the other fallen Angels had fallen into their apostasy. I believe that the Church teaches that hell was never created by God but simply entered existence as a result of the Devil’s fall. People who live very disobedient to God in this life can experience a foretaste of hell, just as people who live very obedient to him can experience a foretaste of heaven, especially with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Blessed Sacrament with us. Saints who were martyrs went through some extremely painful and ugly torments, but they had peace and joy in their hearts to die for Jesus Christ, and so their very painful and ugly torments weren’t a foretaste of hell for them, but was something quite different – a preparation for heaven. Some good people go through some very painful and ugly experiences that can seem very hellish to them, but all the torments on earth combined can not compare to the torments found in purgatory (not to mention in hell) says Church’s theologians. I’ve lived through some painful and scary experiences, at least two of which were very bad. But as incredibly painful as they were, and as much as one of them had made me feel I had seen a glimpse of hell, I now know that it could never ever truly compare to the extremely painful fires, the utter bitter despair, and the bitter hopelessness found only in that real place the Church calls hell (located, I believe, in the fiery core of the earth). I now know that no experience on earth could ever truly compare to the actual torments of hell, as extremely “hellish” as they may feel (in horrific Communist prisons, etc.) – those living through a hellish experience on earth still have God and Mary to cling to, which the damned do not have in hell. God bless you.
I’ve never said that I went thru a hellish experience, I simply said that I experienced hell, I simply mean what I simply said.

It doesn’t matter if anyone believes what I write, but as I have said, I believe that God knew that I needed to know a little to even attempt to do what God chose me to do.
 
I have no idea how many people are in hell, and I don’t think anybody on this earth does.

But as to its nature, I guess I’m inclined to find Ste Therese of Lisieux persuasive. She asserted that, at or about the point of death (possibly shortly thereafter?) one’s life is presented to a person fully and in its true nature. We understand it totally, and we understand how our sins were perhaps much worse than we thought they were; how much mercy was extended to us, and what we did about it. We recognize that we are totally unworthy to be in the presence of God.

We are then extended God’s mercy and love. We know we don’t deserve it. We know we didn’t earn it. We understand it fully, and how it heals but also stings our egos. We then have a clear choice. There is no mistaking it and its consequences. We can admit our faults and our need for mercy and God’s love, or we can reject God’s mercy and choose ourselves as our eternal object of love; knowing full well that it’s also self-hate and hatred of God. We will cocoon ourselves in ourselves forever. And the choice is absolutely clear and we make it in the full exercise of our faculties; enhanced by the clarity of what we have seen presented to us and the clarity of mind God gives us at that moment. So, everyone in hell, she says, is a clear-eyed volunteer. Nobody stumbles into it. We choose it. And why should we doubt this? After all, Lucifer and his cohort were a zillion times smarter than we are. They were in the presence of God, and were totally rational creatures. They weren’t emotional and stupid like we are. And yet, they chose eternal self-worship too, knowing full well what the choice meant.

Kind of hard to imagine anybody doing that; choosing hell. But one can a little, knowing how inclined to self-worship we are and how defiant we can be.

For some, perhaps most of us, we choose God but we don’t deem ourselves worthy to join Him in our present state. We therefore choose purgatory, as a total and clear-eyed volunteer, and we know what it will take for us to be purged of selfishness and our inclination to sin, and we know it will be hard, but we do it joyfully because our minds are totally clear. Not so very hard to imagine that. Not hard to picture oneself doing it. Not hard to think of oneself and how hard it might be to really purge oneself of one’s self-centeredness.

Now, if that’s all correct, then I would hazard a guess that not too many are in hell, relatively speaking (though there have been billions of people, which might up the numbers from what we might suppose). I would also guess that a very few go straight to heaven, and that the great mass of us will opt, yes, joyfully, for purgatory; not because we know it’s “safe on base” but because we really do want to love God the way He wants to be loved, and we want to attain that state. We know God wants us to bathe in His love and we want to present ourselves to Him in a way in which we can do that. But purgatory, it seems, is mainly a “state”; a state of self-purgation. We’re connected to God, but not as perfectly as our individual natures can do.

So, if that’s all so, then what are we doing with our lives here? Well, for one thing we’re developing habits of mind. Every little act of love enables us to love more. Every act of selfishness feeds the self-worship that can be so fatal. Every act of self-denial, of humility, strengthens our ability to accept that overwhelming forgiveness and love.

Anyway, that’s one way of seeing it.
 
I have no idea how many people are in hell, and I don’t think anybody on this earth does.

But as to its nature, I guess I’m inclined to find Ste Therese of Lisieux persuasive. She asserted that, at or about the point of death (possibly shortly thereafter?) one’s life is presented to a person fully and in its true nature. We understand it totally, and we understand how our sins were perhaps much worse than we thought they were; how much mercy was extended to us, and what we did about it. We recognize that we are totally unworthy to be in the presence of God.

We are then extended God’s mercy and love. We know we don’t deserve it. We know we didn’t earn it. We understand it fully, and how it heals but also stings our egos. We then have a clear choice. There is no mistaking it and its consequences. We can admit our faults and our need for mercy and God’s love, or we can reject God’s mercy and choose ourselves as our eternal object of love; knowing full well that it’s also self-hate and hatred of God. We will cocoon ourselves in ourselves forever. And the choice is absolutely clear and we make it in the full exercise of our faculties; enhanced by the clarity of what we have seen presented to us and the clarity of mind God gives us at that moment. So, everyone in hell, she says, is a clear-eyed volunteer. Nobody stumbles into it. We choose it. And why should we doubt this? After all, Lucifer and his cohort were a zillion times smarter than we are. They were in the presence of God, and were totally rational creatures. They weren’t emotional and stupid like we are. And yet, they chose eternal self-worship too, knowing full well what the choice meant.

Kind of hard to imagine anybody doing that; choosing hell. But one can a little, knowing how inclined to self-worship we are and how defiant we can be.

For some, perhaps most of us, we choose God but we don’t deem ourselves worthy to join Him in our present state. We therefore choose purgatory, as a total and clear-eyed volunteer, and we know what it will take for us to be purged of selfishness and our inclination to sin, and we know it will be hard, but we do it joyfully because our minds are totally clear. Not so very hard to imagine that. Not hard to picture oneself doing it. Not hard to think of oneself and how hard it might be to really purge oneself of one’s self-centeredness.

Now, if that’s all correct, then I would hazard a guess that not too many are in hell, relatively speaking (though there have been billions of people, which might up the numbers from what we might suppose). I would also guess that a very few go straight to heaven, and that the great mass of us will opt, yes, joyfully, for purgatory; not because we know it’s “safe on base” but because we really do want to love God the way He wants to be loved, and we want to attain that state. We know God wants us to bathe in His love and we want to present ourselves to Him in a way in which we can do that. But purgatory, it seems, is mainly a “state”; a state of self-purgation. We’re connected to God, but not as perfectly as our individual natures can do.

So, if that’s all so, then what are we doing with our lives here? Well, for one thing we’re developing habits of mind. Every little act of love enables us to love more. Every act of selfishness feeds the self-worship that can be so fatal. Every act of self-denial, of humility, strengthens our ability to accept that overwhelming forgiveness and love.

Anyway, that’s one way of seeing it.
I must say, a very good way of seeing it. You’ve expressed it very well. The possibility that this might be so is a real message of hope for me. Thank you.
 
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