Is American in Schism?

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Agomemnon

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Is the Church in American in Schism?

How many pro-abortion catholics have been excommunicated for what Vatican II called an ‘abominable crime’??

Has the ‘instrinsically evil’ act of contraception been condemned and heretics proposing the church change been excommunicated and/or formally condemned every time they state this?

Why is every intention of the Pope ingored and liturgical abuse runs rampant?

Perhaps the single aswer is “American is in Schism”. What do you think?
 
In schism? Certainly not. The Vatican has asked the bishops in the United States to come up with a way of addressing the pro-abortion politicos, and this is underway. Liturgical corrections are taking place, but they are following the correct legal process that the Church has put in place.

Deacon Ed
 
Because in America, according to many modenism = good. Tradition = evil. In other words, they have everything backwards if you get my drift.
 
I personally think that the Church in America is coming to a breaking point. As everyone is probably aware, there are two basic factions out there - Those who want to vote for their priests and bishops and for what is moral/immoral, have female priests, etc, etc. Then there are those who have the mind of the Church and wish to follow faithfully that which has been passed on. I can’t be sure, of course, but I think that either JPII, or the pope that succeeds him will make a declaration that will cause a break in Church in America. The rift between orthodoxy and orthopraxis is becoming too large. I think the pedulum will swing the other way within my lifetime. As it is with abortion, those who espouse a belief that is contrary to the truth will destroy themselves by the practice of that belief.
 
Schism is a formal state, not an informal one. The American Church is, IMHO, passively disobedient in some of its parts, but that will change as younger, more conservative priests are appointed as bishops. I do not say “orthodox,” because for all I know, most of our current bishops are orthodox, but unwilling to take a hard line in terms of discipline. I think they want to be beloved by their people or they simply don’t want problems. I’ve just never understood why anyone thinks that problems will go away if ignored. The tooth will ache until you go to the dentist. I don’t think that the American Church will break with the Holy See. We may see an exodus of people from it (though perhaps not…the Episcopal Church is loosing members in droves), but didn’t Archbishop Chaput say something about a leaner, more dynamic Church? I don’t think that anyone is going to say they can be Catholic and not be in union with the Holy Father.
 
In schism? No way…

However the only real reason I can see for the Vatican not doing more to the Church in the USA is the fear of schism.

Self-professed pundits can mouth-off with excuses about how the Church is structured, the arcane complexities of canon law, the traditions of doing things a certain way, etc. etc. etc. but they all fall flat. I think if the fear of schism was not present, JPII would have cracked down a lot harder during his tenure.

The fact that the Church has not reformed a great deal in the past 20 years or so (particularly with respect to the liturgy) is the single thing that ever makes me doubt Matthew 16:17-18.

Your reductionist plan of excommunicating half the faithful is certainly not the right way to go, but I am amazed that more bishops have no been replaced in the past 10 years or so…
 
so far I’ve seen some very good reflective responses. Thank you.

Here’s my question that developed in my belief that America is ‘essentially in schism’ even if not formally.

Contraception is intrinsically evil and a mortal sin. It can never be made good.
John Paul II has called contraception the anti-sacrament and the destroyer of grace…I think he’s right on this one.

According to statistics 80% (or higher) of Catholic either practice contraception or don’t believe that its intrinsically evil.

Since 80% of professed Catholics are in a state of mortal sin they are denying themselves the graces through the Eucharist and every time they go up…are risking condemnation upon themselves.

If the Cardinals, Bishops and Preists cared for the souls of their faithful…why aren’t we combating the heresy of contraception with full force and furry?

It is HERE that I believe the liturgical abuses and modernist heresies have taken full root. We need to pull the weed from the root of evil…Contraception.

If in combatting this heresy a hugely large group of the faithful leave the pews than so be it. Better to expose the faithful to the Truth than to let them continue in mortal sin and lose their souls forever.
 
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Agomemnon:
so far I’ve seen some very good reflective responses. Thank you.

Here’s my question that developed in my belief that America is ‘essentially in schism’ even if not formally.

Contraception is intrinsically evil and a mortal sin. It can never be made good.
John Paul II has called contraception the anti-sacrament and the destroyer of grace…I think he’s right on this one.

According to statistics 80% (or higher) of Catholic either practice contraception or don’t believe that its intrinsically evil.

Since 80% of professed Catholics are in a state of mortal sin they are denying themselves the graces through the Eucharist and every time they go up…are risking condemnation upon themselves.

If the Cardinals, Bishops and Preists cared for the souls of their faithful…why aren’t we combating the heresy of contraception with full force and furry?

It is HERE that I believe the liturgical abuses and modernist heresies have taken full root. We need to pull the weed from the root of evil…Contraception.

If in combatting this heresy a hugely large group of the faithful leave the pews than so be it. Better to expose the faithful to the Truth than to let them continue in mortal sin and lose their souls forever.
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I would say, IMHO, that contraception is not the root of evil, but rather disobedience is. Of course, the hierarchy could make that a lot easier by doing the whole “to remove all doubt thing” about contraception like the Holy Father did on the issue of ordination of women (I always wonder how anyone can still wonder about the ordination of women when that phrase is in there: “to remove all doubt.” Seems like he intended that to be binding upon the Church), but it isn’t my place to advise the Holy Father. I think disobedience is root of the evil and contraceptions one of the fruits, as is liturgical abuse, etc. But then, liturgical abuse is something the bishops seem reluctant to address! From what I’ve read on this site, some bishops seem to be ignoring GIRM!
 
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Agomemnon:
so far I’ve seen some very good reflective responses. Thank you.

Here’s my question that developed in my belief that America is ‘essentially in schism’ even if not formally.

Contraception is intrinsically evil and a mortal sin. It can never be made good.
John Paul II has called contraception the anti-sacrament and the destroyer of grace…I think he’s right on this one.

According to statistics 80% (or higher) of Catholic either practice contraception or don’t believe that its intrinsically evil.

Since 80% of professed Catholics are in a state of mortal sin they are denying themselves the graces through the Eucharist and every time they go up…are risking condemnation upon themselves.

If the Cardinals, Bishops and Preists cared for the souls of their faithful…why aren’t we combating the heresy of contraception with full force and furry?

It is HERE that I believe the liturgical abuses and modernist heresies have taken full root. We need to pull the weed from the root of evil…Contraception.

If in combatting this heresy a hugely large group of the faithful leave the pews than so be it. Better to expose the faithful to the Truth than to let them continue in mortal sin and lose their souls forever.
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80%?

Sources?
 
if 80% of American Catholics are contracepting, so what? 100% of American Catholics are sinning. We are all sinners. Individual sin, even habitual, intransigent sin, does not make us schismatic, it makes us disobedient and sinful, and suffering because of it, which is pretty much descriptive of the human condition. Schism will occur when one or more bishops formally separates his diocese from allegience and obedience to the Pope, begins ordaining priests and other bishops without permission, and celebrating the sacraments illicitly. It has already occured in our recent history–Polish National church, Old Catholics, SSPX–and some very liberal bishops and cardinals are very close.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I do not say “orthodox,” because for all I know, most of our current bishops are orthodox, but unwilling to take a hard line in terms of discipline.
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This issue of discipline is something that concerns me as someone inquiring into the Catholic faith. In the Archdiocese of Detroit, there’s a bishop who’s apparently been teaching things in opposition to the magisterium for years. The fact that the church hasn’t silenced him leads one to believe that his positions are fully acceptable within Catholicism, and leaves people like me thoroughly confused. If diocesan bishops are indeed orthodox in their theology, wouldn’t they be more concerned about this issue?
 
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djrakowski:
…In the Archdiocese of Detroit, there’s a bishop who’s apparently been teaching things in opposition to the magisterium for years. The fact that the church hasn’t silenced him leads one to believe that his positions are fully acceptable within Catholicism, and leaves people like me thoroughly confused.
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This intrigues me, could you elaborate on what this bishop is teaching, or point me to some sources?

Thanks
 
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Hesychios:
This intrigues me, could you elaborate on what this bishop is teaching, or point me to some sources?

Thanks
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Bp. Gumbleton is an auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of Detroit:

soulforce.org/dc1102/dc_pr012903.shtml
cathfam.org/Gumbleton10.31.04.html
w3.trib.com/~murphy/03-26-97.htm
lifesite.net/ldn/2004/oct/041008a.html
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0405870.htm
catholiccitizens.org/press/pressview.asp?c=20436
ignatius.com/Magazines/scandal/ignore-pf.htm

Do a “Google” on Bishop Gumbleton, and you’ll see that I’ve left out quite a few articles about him. There’s been quite a bit posted about him on these forums, too.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I would say, IMHO, that contraception is not the root of evil, but rather disobedience is. Of course, the hierarchy could make that a lot easier by doing the whole “to remove all doubt thing” about contraception like the Holy Father did on the issue of ordination of women (I always wonder how anyone can still wonder about the ordination of women when that phrase is in there: “to remove all doubt.” Seems like he intended that to be binding upon the Church), but it isn’t my place to advise the Holy Father. I think disobedience is root of the evil and contraceptions one of the fruits, as is liturgical abuse, etc. But then, liturgical abuse is something the bishops seem reluctant to address! From what I’ve read on this site, some bishops seem to be ignoring GIRM!
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And what IS contraception if its not disobedience (in thought and deed) to God’s Plan. All Children are a Gift of Grace.

Contraception…the anti-sacrament of the anti-church in america (Amchurch)
 
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Agomemnon:
so far I’ve seen some very good reflective responses. Thank you.

Here’s my question that developed in my belief that America is ‘essentially in schism’ even if not formally.

Contraception is intrinsically evil and a mortal sin. It can never be made good.
John Paul II has called contraception the anti-sacrament and the destroyer of grace…I think he’s right on this one.

According to statistics 80% (or higher) of Catholic either practice contraception or don’t believe that its intrinsically evil.

Since 80% of professed Catholics are in a state of mortal sin they are denying themselves the graces through the Eucharist and every time they go up…are risking condemnation upon themselves.

If the Cardinals, Bishops and Preists cared for the souls of their faithful…why aren’t we combating the heresy of contraception with full force and furry?

It is HERE that I believe the liturgical abuses and modernist heresies have taken full root. We need to pull the weed from the root of evil…Contraception.

If in combatting this heresy a hugely large group of the faithful leave the pews than so be it. Better to expose the faithful to the Truth than to let them continue in mortal sin and lose their souls forever.
Click to expand...
I would guess if you took all the Catholics in the world and subtracted those too young (pre-puberty) and those too old to use artificial contraception, the remainder would only be perhaps 50-60% of all Catholics…
 
Schism is a formal state reflecting a lack of union with the Roman pontiff. He alone can pronounce this state. He has not done so. The church in America is, therefore, not in schism. All other issues are not relevant to the state of schism until such a time that the Pope states that they are relevant.

Despite all the sin in the members of the church and clergy and despite any sin in the future, I will stand by my church and its teaching, from my priest, to my bishop, and the Holy Father.
 
Good heavens no! We have many Catholics here who are loyal to the magisterium and doctrine and are willing to die for the faith. I hope to God this never happens! America is one of most religious countries in the world how could it possibly be in schism? America in schism? God will not allow that to happen. Much damage to the church will be done if this happens, America is a rich source of Catholicism and a nation with a morality like no other. Pray for this beautiful land we call America.

Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”
 
The way many I talk to feel about this subject, and I dont mean people who call themeselves Catholic but have not seen the inside of a church for 20 years, is that the church itself is in schism, mostly after Vatican II, that have abandoned the dogma and teachings of the church as it stood for centuries, not the other way around. The only ones who seem to get censured or excommunicated are Catholics who FOLLOW Traditional Teachings, like Archbishop Lefebvre. Actually in Canon Law, if a Pope or Bishop teaches something that is against the codified teachings of the church, they have excommunicated THEMSELVES, and you are not bound to follow these heretical teachings

The purpose of any council is to define and clarify prior chuch teachings and make them clearer and even update them, not throw them all out the window, invent a Protestant Mass and expect everyone, especially the middle of the roaders like my family and I to say, sure I will go.

We feel something is rotten in Denmark and have started seeking Traditional Churches because we cant even get the Indult Mass said anywhere in the entire liberal city of New York!
 
jtnova:
The only ones who seem to get censured or excommunicated are Catholics who FOLLOW Traditional Teachings, like Archbishop Lefebvre. Actually in Canon Law, if a Pope or Bishop teaches something that is against the codified teachings of the church, they have excommunicated THEMSELVES, and you are not bound to follow these heretical teachings
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Lefebvre was excommunicated for promoting heresy and is a poor example to follow. If one thinks that the Pope and bishops have excommunicated themselves and only the chosen few minority Traditionalist are the true Catholic church, then that person has drifted into sedevacantism.

We must remember that Christ only established one church, which is still lead by his successor, John Paul II. Until he announces a schism, it does not exist. Willfully seperating from the bride of Christ for any reason is dangerous.
 
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pnewton:
Lefebvre was excommunicated for promoting heresy and is a poor example to follow. If one thinks that the Pope and bishops have excommunicated themselves and only the chosen few minority Traditionalist are the true Catholic church, then that person has drifted into sedevacantism.

We must remember that Christ only established one church, which is still lead by his successor, John Paul II. Until he announces a schism, it does not exist. Willfully seperating from the bride of Christ for any reason is dangerous.
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Lefebvre was excommunicated for disobedience. Period.

Now the question is…why haven’t other truly heretical Bishops (i.e. Weakland, Mahony, Bernadin) been excommunicated?

The real answer is both the Pope and Lebebvre were played like a violin.
 
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