Is American in Schism?

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Agomemnon:
Lefebvre was excommunicated for disobedience. Period.

Now the question is…why haven’t other truly heretical Bishops (i.e. Weakland, Mahony, Bernadin) been excommunicated?
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Because none of those three are/were heretics, that’s why.
 
jtnova:
The way many I talk to feel about this subject, and I dont mean people who call themeselves Catholic but have not seen the inside of a church for 20 years, is that the church itself is in schism, mostly after Vatican II, that have abandoned the dogma and teachings of the church as it stood for centuries, not the other way around. The only ones who seem to get censured or excommunicated are Catholics who FOLLOW Traditional Teachings, like Archbishop Lefebvre. Actually in Canon Law, if a Pope or Bishop teaches something that is against the codified teachings of the church, they have excommunicated THEMSELVES, and you are not bound to follow these heretical teachings

The purpose of any council is to define and clarify prior chuch teachings and make them clearer and even update them, not throw them all out the window, invent a Protestant Mass and expect everyone, especially the middle of the roaders like my family and I to say, sure I will go.

We feel something is rotten in Denmark and have started seeking Traditional Churches because we cant even get the Indult Mass said anywhere in the entire liberal city of New York!
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You provide crystal-clear evidence why many people look at “traditionalists” with great skepticism. You also provide ammo to those ultra-prograssives who have turned the Church into what it is today. After all, who wantes to be associated within anyone who (for example) suggests the Novus Ordo Mass is a “Protestant Mass?” Certainly not me…

Much of the traditionalist mind-candy may be soothing at first, but I urge you to dig a bit deeper for some real meat because in the end, this mind-candy does nothing but rot one’s brain…
 
Because the chuch tolerates anyone, Protestants, heretics, sexual abusers…all except anyone who adheres to the Traditional Principals of the past 2000 years. They fear conservative and traditionals and excommunicate and censure us faster than anyone because we remind them of what they once were, a church that was in the business of saving souls instead of running a liberal corrupt organization that only promotes homosexual and or left leaning seminarians into the priesthood, as I have many friends who are priests, and I know a thing or two about the seminary, and the church hopes in the next 20 years to first have married priests and then female priests…all the fruits of Vatican II
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katherine2:
Because none of those three are/were heretics, that’s why.
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jtnova said:
Because the chuch tolerates anyone, Protestants, heretics, sexual abusers…all except anyone who adheres to the Traditional Principals of the past 2000 years. They fear conservative and traditionals and excommunicate and censure us faster than anyone because we remind them of what they once were, a church that was in the business of saving souls instead of running a liberal corrupt organization that only promotes homosexual and or left leaning seminarians into the priesthood, as I have many friends who are priests, and I know a thing or two about the seminary, and the church hopes in the next 20 years to first have married priests and then female priests…all the fruits of Vatican II
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That’s flat-out wrong. Nothing but personal conjecture without any back-up.

Your problem seems to stem from the fact that you feel the Church should mold itself to what you feel is good and it simply dosen’t work that way.

You need to begin to follow what the Church actually directs, and not what* you* feel the Church should be doing.

Your frustration and pain seems genuine enough, but you need to strive to educate yourself so you won’t fall into what I term the “traditionalist trap” because it’ll do nothing but embitter you.
 
Tell me, what dogmas of the Church were abandoned at the V2 council? None. disciplines and customs were changed. Certain theological emphases were changed (low Christology vs high). THIS DOES NOT ALTER THE CONTENT OF THE FAITH.

I WOULD ask that if a general council of the church can be heretical (i.e. Vatican II), then what makes you think Trent or Nicea weren’t too? But I won’t ask that because SSPX arguments are against the forum rules!

Being a bishop is tough. Confrontation requires humungous care to be pastoral and not create more harm then good (as about 60% of the threads here amply illustrate!) Pray for them.
Christ chose 12 apostles for a reason. Yes, He gave primacy to Peter, but the others were not just Peter’s minions!
 
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katherine2:
Because none of those three are/were heretics, that’s why.
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Bernedin, Weakland and Mahony were all disobedient to Canon Law, Catholic Tradition, and the clear instruction of the Holy Father. Plus, all 3 are (were for Bernadin) heretics.
Are you really going to defend Bernadin and Weakland??
 
I talked to a friend last week. He said that the problems in the church in America are creating a Schism and I agree. The problem isnt with Abortion. People know Abortion is wrong. Teh problem is with the Bishop in America or maybe even Rome are not in Cannon with the Bishops in the rest of the world. The Bishops here and in Rome are to Damn liberal for their own Good and they have an agenda.
 
The Catholic Church in the United States is not in schism. It is in a state of rebellion against Christ and the Pope. This rebellion could very well lead to schism.

Schism is one thing that the Pope and the bishops are working hard to prevent.
 
I guess I am more of a half-full pollyanna. I see so many strong Catholics and great priest I have confidence that the church in America will survive its scandals and trials. The very presence of this website is a tribute to the future of the Church. Whether through an increase influx from protestant conversions or an increase in hispanic Catholics, the Church will go on.
 
The Bishops are not working hard. If they were they would be putting good people in charge of the seminaries and the situation would rectify itself in about 10 years.
 
I dont think there will be a Schism people who call themselves Catholic and those who attend church on Sunday are two differnt types. And from what I’ve seen the people who fill the pews are the orthodox ones. I’ve never heard of Catholic who belives what the Church teaches and suports the Pope, yet does not attend mass. The people who support the church are the people who fill the pews. If there is a schism church attendance and support will remain virtually unchanged due to a mass “exodus” from the church.
 
Yeah but you dont know the Baltimore Diocese defies Papal decrees on a regular bassis and than claims everything is fine. When in fact its not. Its not the conservative Catholics you mentioned, its the liberal Catholics and the liberals in office.
 
Pray to God that doesn’t happen! There are so many good and honest Catholics all over America. The Church has suffered worse than this, especially in the eleventh century when the Church suffered from married clergy, lay investiture, simony ect… Thank God Pope Gregory VII came along and put a stop to it. The Church needs reform.

Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”
 
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Bill_A:
Yeah but you dont know the Baltimore Diocese defies Papal decrees on a regular bassis and than claims everything is fine. When in fact its not. Its not the conservative Catholics you mentioned, its the liberal Catholics and the liberals in office.
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The Pope doesn’t seem to think Baltimore is defiying his decrees.
 
I wish that the liberal catholics, those who call themselves Catholic and do everything including disobeying every form of church teaching a/k/a Mr. John Kerry would find themselves a nice little Protestant or whatever chapel and start going there. The funny thing is, that many of these Protestant congregations, how anti abortion and righteous they are, probably would not even ACCEPT a heretic such as that. But we have Bishops here in the US who wont deny him Communion, our Lords Body, as they have no Guts whatsoever. I Love our Pope, but he is a weak leader, and he is Old, and the Bishops we have are all relics from the radical 60’s, and we are paying the consequences, sad.
 
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