Is an intermediary required?

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

rien

Guest
I have a devout former Catholic friend who accepts prayers to the Saints and asking prayers of other Chritians per Paul.

But she has a valid point and I quote:

The issue is not having ever used an intermediary. Instead it is is an intermediary required.

She is saying that priests are fine and prayers to the Saints are fine.

But that in the end they are not required, I think she makes a good point. I really can’t rebut it from Scripture.

This person, formerly a devout SSPX traditionalist catholic, is “liberal” in a sense. She is now evangelical but believes catholics can and will be saved too.

So, while prayers to Sainst may be fine and priests too, isn’t Christ all that is required. And we can get there w/o priests or bishops or a Pope? So she argues.
 
Your friend is right in that intercessory prayer is not mandatory for your individual salvation. This, however, misses the point. It is the importance of intercessory prayer and the good associated with it that make it worthwhile. Intercessory prayer can help someone come to salvation.

This is what scripture says:

1 Timothy 2:1-4
FIRST OF all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now, it is clear from scripture that we are to engage in intercessory prayer. Moreover, the apostle James tells us that “the prayer of a just man availeth much.” In the book of Hebrews 12:22-23 it says that, “…you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,” If the prayers of a just man availeth much, surely the prayers of “just men made perfect” will be of even greater effect.

Rev 5:8 says:
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Obiously, the saints in heaven are interceding and carrying our prayers to God. This is not an exhaustive list of passages that speak to intercessory prayer, but it is sufficient to show that this is all part of God’s divine plan. God’s plan works only for good and everything within it magnifies and glorifies the Lord. If the inspired of word of God in scripture encourages intercessory prayer then it would seem highly problematic to discount it or otherwise ignore the practice.
 
Your friend is right in that intercessory prayer is not mandatory for your individual salvation. This, however, misses the point. It is the importance of intercessory prayer and the good associated with it that make it worthwhile. Intercessory prayer can help someone come to salvation.

This is what scripture says:

1 Timothy 2:1-4
FIRST OF all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now, it is clear from scripture that we are to engage in intercessory prayer. Moreover, the apostle James tells us that “the prayer of a just man availeth much.” In the book of Hebrews 12:22-23 it says that, “…you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,” If the prayers of a just man availeth much, surely the prayers of “just men made perfect” will be of even greater effect.

Rev 5:8 says:
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Obiously, the saints in heaven are interceding and carrying our prayers to God. This is not an exhaustive list of passages that speak to intercessory prayer, but it is sufficient to show that this is all part of God’s divine plan. God’s plan works only for good and everything within it magnifies and glorifies the Lord. If the inspired of word of God in scripture encourages intercessory prayer then it would seem highly problematic to discount it or otherwise ignore the practice.
But bottom line it is not required for salvation. And priests are neither.

Her SSPX congreagation has lost half its members to evnagelicalism because of this “ah ha”.

Intercessory prayers not required, priest not required. Not prohbited either but an add on to Scripture. Even thn SSPX priest converted to evangelicalism over this and i can’t find an argument that really counters it from Scripture.
 
But bottom line it is not required for salvation. And priests are neither.

Her SSPX congreagation has lost half its members to evnagelicalism because of this “ah ha”.

Intercessory prayers not required, priest not required. Not prohbited either but an add on to Scripture. Even thn SSPX priest converted to evangelicalism over this and i can’t find an argument that really counters it from Scripture.
Actually, the part about priests is totally erroneous. Priests offer sacrifice. Malachi 1:11 says: " For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts."

This quote from Malachi is a prophecy and this prophecy is fulfilled in only one way. The prophecy refers to the sacrifice of the mass and the Eucharist. This prophetic passage is even one of the Eucharistic prayers said by the priest at mass.

Is mass necessary for salvation? In John 6:53-54 Jesus says "So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Unnecessary?..I don’t think so.
 
Intercession is part of God’s plan for us. Sure, anyone can have it their way, or they can have it according to God’s design. It is not to say the first one won’t work, it means the second way is better.

*In practice the Fundamentalist does not go to Jesus “alone”. He is nurtured by his minister, his Bible teacher, his church and other such “support groups” in forming his understanding of Jesus and then “goes” to Jesus on the basis of the training and guidance he gets from these groups, often with the groups or individuals actually praying with him and guiding him. To go to Jesus through Mary is simply to embrace another “support” or “fellowship” group in our journey - one whose role in this regard has been biblically mandated. True, we cannot see Mary. But we cannot see our guardian angels either - and we are perfectly justified in seeking their help.

To put it another way, a father who helps his son learn to pray, corrects his misconceptions about God, teaches him the Bible, and directs him in leading a Christian life is not “supplanting” Jesus or acting as an obstacle between his son and Jesus. He is helping his son establish a full and lasting commitment to his Savior. Of course the son could try to “go” to Jesus alone - but how much easier and how much safer it is to have the guidance of someone who is an experienced Christian and who loves him with a father’s tenderness. This is all that is involved in going to Jesus through Mary. “Do whatever he tells you” is her constant encouragement.

“To Jesus through Mary”: according to the historic Faith this is the path to salvation ordained by the Trinity. “To Jesus through Calvinism, Dispensationalism, the Faith Movement, etc.”: this is the path to salvation taught by Fundamentalism. The historic Faith is authoritative simply because it originates from the apostolic community. It is also more true to our experience. No one came to Jesus alone. Apostles, missionaries, preachers, theologians, writers, parents, and the Church brought us to Jesus. God could have chosen to act directly but he did not. He chose to act through human beings. These human beings were pathways to Him not obstacles. So it is with Mary.*
mariology.com/content/view/9/28/
 
I have a devout former Catholic friend who accepts prayers to the Saints and asking prayers of other Chritians per Paul.

But she has a valid point and I quote:

The issue is not having ever used an intermediary. Instead it is is an intermediary required.

She is saying that priests are fine and prayers to the Saints are fine.

But that in the end they are not required, I think she makes a good point. I really can’t rebut it from Scripture.

This person, formerly a devout SSPX traditionalist catholic, is “liberal” in a sense. She is now evangelical but believes catholics can and will be saved too.

So, while prayers to Sainst may be fine and priests too, isn’t Christ all that is required. And we can get there w/o priests or bishops or a Pope? So she argues.
***Hi, rien!

…without exaggerations… your friend’s problem is with Jesus Christ for it is He who instituted both:

Intercessory Prayer***:
37 Then he saith to his disciples, The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send forth labourers into his harvest. (St. Matthew 9:37-38–DRV)

The Priesthood:
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (St. Matthew 16:18-19–DRV)

(14-22) And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed. (Acts 14:23)

And when Paul and Barnabas had no small contest with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of the other side should go up to the apostles and priests to Jerusalem, about this question. (Acts 15:2)

Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. (1 Timmothy 5:17)

For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee: (Titus 1:5)

Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. (St. James 5:14)

And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father. To him be glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen. (Apocalypse 1:6)

And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth. (Apocalypse 5:10)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power. But they shall be priests of God and of Christ: and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Apocalypse 20:6)

…so it seems that Jesus had it all wrong, according to your devout friend… :confused:

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top