Is Animal Testing Necessary?

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And testing shampoo on animals is a far cry from the experimentation that takes place in the development of drugs, medical research, surgical technique, and even psychological research. All of which are highly beneficial to human beings and that which would not be possible if it weren’t for experimentation on animals. Needlessly making animals suffer for the sake of suffering is not acceptable, but then, inflicting suffering on animals by drug companies and the medical profession just for the sport of it is not a very commonplace practice.
We are not talking about the sport of it. Some scientists like to play God (not only scientists of course). Trying to create life whether human or animal is wrong in my opinion. Experiments that do nothing but satisfy some sort of curiousity but does not really help humans, is wrong in my opinion. That famous two heads on one dog experiment for example. I do not know whether it is still done.

Humans are so desperate to live longer and longer that we forget that this world is a trial. We are promised the best when we die, heaven. There is no necessity to do all and everything, to forget compassion to prolong life. The Church says that extrordinary means are not required to prolong life.

There are new things now. They can grow blood vessels form your own cells. They are trying to grow organs from your own cells. No rejection by the body and no anti rejection drugs for your whole life.

Some scientists are looking for alternatives. Why not?
 
severus68: I’m glad that you started this thread. The most surprising thing to me is that the majority of the general public has no idea how medical research/drug research uses animals, and it is assumed that all the suffering endured is for the benefit of humans, and it serves some positive end. It is my understanding that the vast majority of animal experiments are unnecessary, repetitive, and do not contribute anything significant to our (human) well being.

Case in point are the maternal deprivation experiments on monkeys. Remarkably cruel, and ***completely useless ***to the understanding of human psychology. releasechimps.org/harm-suffering/research-history/maternal-deprivation/

"Human psychological and sociological data is replete with information about the importance of maternal bonding and the consequences to the human child when it is disrupted. Yet, apparently there are scientists who support “apple-dropping” types of experiments which simply show over and over an already-known phenomenon so that some researcher somewhere can continue to use animals, be funded, demonstrate already known facts, and call it “research.”
 
severus68: I’m glad that you started this thread. The most surprising thing to me is that the majority of the general public has no idea how medical research/drug research uses animals, and it is assumed that all the suffering endured is for the benefit of humans, and it serves some positive end. It is my understanding that the vast majority of animal experiments are unnecessary, repetitive, and do not contribute anything significant to our (human) well being.

Case in point are the maternal deprivation experiments on monkeys. Remarkably cruel, and ***completely useless ***to the understanding of human psychology. releasechimps.org/harm-suffering/research-history/maternal-deprivation/

"Human psychological and sociological data is replete with information about the importance of maternal bonding and the consequences to the human child when it is disrupted. Yet, apparently there are scientists who support “apple-dropping” types of experiments which simply show over and over an already-known phenomenon so that some researcher somewhere can continue to use animals, be funded, demonstrate already known facts, and call it “research.”
Exactly. We need animals to show us how important maternal bonding is? If we need to then how can they be lesser to us and if they are not lesser to us, how can we experiment on them?
 
severus68: I’m glad that you started this thread. The most surprising thing to me is that the majority of the general public has no idea how medical research/drug research uses animals, and it is assumed that all the suffering endured is for the benefit of humans, and it serves some positive end. It is my understanding that the vast majority of animal experiments are unnecessary, repetitive, and do not contribute anything significant to our (human) well being.

Case in point are the maternal deprivation experiments on monkeys. Remarkably cruel, and ***completely useless ***to the understanding of human psychology. releasechimps.org/harm-suffering/research-history/maternal-deprivation/

"Human psychological and sociological data is replete with information about the importance of maternal bonding and the consequences to the human child when it is disrupted. Yet, apparently there are scientists who support “apple-dropping” types of experiments which simply show over and over an already-known phenomenon so that some researcher somewhere can continue to use animals, be funded, demonstrate already known facts, and call it “research.”
What terrible sickening experiments!
 
I sort of skimmed through this thread, so sorry if I’m repeating something, but I just wanted to mention that I’ve noticed a huge difference in the quality of products tested on animals, vs. those not tested on animals. Maybe it’s because companies that don’t test on animals feel they have more to prove, but their products are so much better than those tested on animals; they’re usually gentler, smell better, clean better, and are packaged more attractively. Not always, but usually. I’ve always thought it was because a company that doesn’t choose to test on animals is already going against the grain - and in the corporate world, that usually indicates a passion for quality.

I think sometimes Catholics think that paying attention to where and how a product is made, and making a conscience decision to avoid products that are produced in an undesireable way, that they will look like ‘liberals’ or that they will seem judgemental. We’ve been sucked into this idea that “Christians are conservative” and conservative means mindless shopping, eating fast food, and never caring about ingredients or production methods. But Christians are called to live in radical imitation of Christ - which means applying our faith to every aspect of life, and which necessitates a turning away from the use, abuse, abandon attitude our culture currently has towards all living things - not only the earth and the animals we are commanded to care for, but our fellow men as well.
 
I sort of skimmed through this thread, so sorry if I’m repeating something, but I just wanted to mention that I’ve noticed a huge difference in the quality of products tested on animals, vs. those not tested on animals. Maybe it’s because companies that don’t test on animals feel they have more to prove, but their products are so much better than those tested on animals; they’re usually gentler, smell better, clean better, and are packaged more attractively. Not always, but usually. I’ve always thought it was because a company that doesn’t choose to test on animals is already going against the grain - and in the corporate world, that usually indicates a passion for quality.

I think sometimes Catholics think that paying attention to where and how a product is made, and making a conscience decision to avoid products that are produced in an undesireable way, that they will look like ‘liberals’ or that they will seem judgemental. We’ve been sucked into this idea that “Christians are conservative” and conservative means mindless shopping, eating fast food, and never caring about ingredients or production methods. But Christians are called to live in radical imitation of Christ - which means applying our faith to every aspect of life, and which necessitates a turning away from the use, abuse, abandon attitude our culture currently has towards all living things - not only the earth and the animals we are commanded to care for, but our fellow men as well.
👍👍 Great post! Christ was radical too in stressing the spirit of the law rather than the letter and stating that God’s greatest commandment is love.
 
I sort of skimmed through this thread, so sorry if I’m repeating something, but I just wanted to mention that I’ve noticed a huge difference in the quality of products tested on animals, vs. those not tested on animals. Maybe it’s because companies that don’t test on animals feel they have more to prove, but their products are so much better than those tested on animals; they’re usually gentler, smell better, clean better, and are packaged more attractively. Not always, but usually. I’ve always thought it was because a company that doesn’t choose to test on animals is already going against the grain - and in the corporate world, that usually indicates a passion for quality.

I think sometimes Catholics think that paying attention to where and how a product is made, and making a conscience decision to avoid products that are produced in an undesireable way, that they will look like ‘liberals’ or that they will seem judgemental. We’ve been sucked into this idea that “Christians are conservative” and conservative means mindless shopping, eating fast food, and never caring about ingredients or production methods. But Christians are called to live in radical imitation of Christ - which means applying our faith to every aspect of life, and which necessitates a turning away from the use, abuse, abandon attitude our culture currently has towards all living things - not only the earth and the animals we are commanded to care for, but our fellow men as well.
How very, very, very well said! 👍
 
Wow, thanks you guys! 🙂

I was really excited to see this thread, its great to see some serious discussion on our role on this earth in relation to the rest of the natural world. I wonder - and again, maybe I missed this somewhere earlier - but what made you stop and take notice, and make the decision to avoid buying products tested on animals. I know I never even thought about it until I first notice a bottle of something that said “This product has not been tested on animals” and I thought - “they test these things on animals?”, then I looked up the type of tests they run on animals, and I was horrified - I’d sort of imagined the tests were along the lines of rubbing lotion on hairless animals, shampooing dogs and cats, and putting the tiniest drop of perfume on classy little white rats. If anyone here hasn’t seen the actual tests they do, it’s terrifying - I felt as though I was watching dozens of vicious men perfecting their torture techniques. It’s painful to watch, and painfult to think about - but it is something that, if you don’t have your eyes open each day, it would be easy to miss. So what made you open your eyes?

And please, I’ve read some posts by people who really aren’t concerned about products being testing on animals, why not? for clarification: I’m not refering to medicine or medical supplies, or other life saving, exciting developements. I’m refering to cosmetics, cleaners, washes, shampoos, and the like. I’d really like to know why this isn’t something that you’ve considered.

Thanks! I’m really interested in where we’re all coming from.
🙂
Masha
 
Yes, for medical purposes animal testing is absolutely necessary. I test on animals. It’s my job. Of course if you want to skip animal trials and go right to human testing, you can step right up to volunteer yourself.
I, for one, do not want to start testing on humans.
And, no, animals are not a perfect analog to humans, but they’re more similar that one might think.
The difference between testing on animals and using other, non-living test subjects is just that - they’re not LIVING and there is NOTHING that can recreate the medium of a living creature.
Seriously, how else do you think we can verify ANY safety in drugs if we don’t test on animals?
I test on animals for my job. It’s mice now, but I’ve done testing on other animals, too - digs, cats, chimps, pigs. Do you know how WELL those mice get treated? Sheesh, they might as well be running a mouse hotel! To change ANYTHING we do to those mice, we must submit plans of work to two independent agencies who have to review them and make sure that the mice are well treated. Honestly, the mice in our facility live a FAR more pleasant experience than their brothers and sisters out in the field. More than four mice to a cage? That’s a red flag, adn we get written up. Bedding not high enough? That’s a write up. One from your control group is looking a little woozy? Get her medical treatment, or it’s a write up.
This is what they do for MICE. For the bigger animals, there’s even MORE paperwork and safeguards in place.
 
wow, thanks you guys! 🙂

i was really excited to see this thread, its great to see some serious discussion on our role on this earth in relation to the rest of the natural world. I wonder - and again, maybe i missed this somewhere earlier - but what made you stop and take notice, and make the decision to avoid buying products tested on animals. I know i never even thought about it until i first notice a bottle of something that said “this product has not been tested on animals” and i thought - “they test these things on animals?”, then i looked up the type of tests they run on animals, and i was horrified - i’d sort of imagined the tests were along the lines of rubbing lotion on hairless animals, shampooing dogs and cats, and putting the tiniest drop of perfume on classy little white rats. If anyone here hasn’t seen the actual tests they do, it’s terrifying - i felt as though i was watching dozens of vicious men perfecting their torture techniques. It’s painful to watch, and painfult to think about - but it is something that, if you don’t have your eyes open each day, it would be easy to miss. So what made you open your eyes?

And please, i’ve read some posts by people who really aren’t concerned about products being testing on animals, why not? for clarification: I’m not refering to medicine or medical supplies, or other life saving, exciting developements. I’m refering to cosmetics, cleaners, washes, shampoos, and the like. i’d really like to know why this isn’t something that you’ve considered.

Thanks! I’m really interested in where we’re all coming from.
🙂
masha
Great post!!!
 
Wow, thanks you guys! 🙂

I was really excited to see this thread, its great to see some serious discussion on our role on this earth in relation to the rest of the natural world. I wonder - and again, maybe I missed this somewhere earlier - but what made you stop and take notice, and make the decision to avoid buying products tested on animals. I know I never even thought about it until I first notice a bottle of something that said “This product has not been tested on animals” and I thought - “they test these things on animals?”, then I looked up the type of tests they run on animals, and I was horrified - I’d sort of imagined the tests were along the lines of rubbing lotion on hairless animals, shampooing dogs and cats, and putting the tiniest drop of perfume on classy little white rats. If anyone here hasn’t seen the actual tests they do, it’s terrifying - I felt as though I was watching dozens of vicious men perfecting their torture techniques. It’s painful to watch, and painfult to think about - but it is something that, if you don’t have your eyes open each day, it would be easy to miss. So what made you open your eyes?

And please, I’ve read some posts by people who really aren’t concerned about products being testing on animals, why not? for clarification: I’m not refering to medicine or medical supplies, or other life saving, exciting developements. I’m refering to cosmetics, cleaners, washes, shampoos, and the like. I’d really like to know why this isn’t something that you’ve considered.

Thanks! I’m really interested in where we’re all coming from.
🙂
Masha
I have always been fond of animals. As I grew up, I became more aware of what was happening. I used to see abuse of dogs and cats. My Mum would climb into huge drains to pick up puppies and kittens thrown in. I live in an urban area so it was more about pets at first. When I realised tests like the Draize Test was used for things like shampoo, I made a point to check what I bought. Non animal tested products do not necessarily cost more. Basically I decided “to put my money where my mouth is”. I could not say I loved animals and do nothing about it. I feel good about my choices.
 
Yes, for medical purposes animal testing is absolutely necessary. I test on animals. It’s my job. Of course if you want to skip animal trials and go right to human testing, you can step right up to volunteer yourself.
I, for one, do not want to start testing on humans.
And, no, animals are not a perfect analog to humans, but they’re more similar that one might think.
The difference between testing on animals and using other, non-living test subjects is just that - they’re not LIVING and there is NOTHING that can recreate the medium of a living creature.
Seriously, how else do you think we can verify ANY safety in drugs if we don’t test on animals?
I test on animals for my job. It’s mice now, but I’ve done testing on other animals, too - digs, cats, chimps, pigs. Do you know how WELL those mice get treated? Sheesh, they might as well be running a mouse hotel! To change ANYTHING we do to those mice, we must submit plans of work to two independent agencies who have to review them and make sure that the mice are well treated. Honestly, the mice in our facility live a FAR more pleasant experience than their brothers and sisters out in the field. More than four mice to a cage? That’s a red flag, adn we get written up. Bedding not high enough? That’s a write up. One from your control group is looking a little woozy? Get her medical treatment, or it’s a write up.
This is what they do for MICE. For the bigger animals, there’s even MORE paperwork and safeguards in place.
Well its good that your research facility treats the animals humanely. They are not all like that.

There are viable alternatives and some medical researchers are looking for more. I posted on the John Hopkins research facility. There is a Physicians Committee for Rsponsible Medicine. pcrm.org/

Maybe we can’t do away with all medical testing on animals right now but we should look for possible alternatives. I posted about Viox as I was prescribed it. It had been tested on animals so what happened?

What is the purpose of testing some drugs at all on animals, for example, anti depressants?

BTW I was asked to take part and did of a new drug that was being tested.
 
Well its good that your research facility treats the animals humanely. They are not all like that.

There are viable alternatives and some medical researchers are looking for more. I posted on the John Hopkins research facility. There is a Physicians Committee for Rsponsible Medicine. pcrm.org/

Maybe we can’t do away with all medical testing on animals right now but we should look for possible alternatives. I posted about Viox as I was prescribed it. It had been tested on animals so what happened?

What is the purpose of testing some drugs at all on animals, for example, anti depressants?

BTW I was asked to take part and did of a new drug that was being tested.
The reason to test on animals at all is to make sure that the drug has the intended effects and to watch for possible unintended side effects.
First, the drug is tested just on cells maintained in a petri dish. But the problem with that is that it isn’t an entire system. You can, for example, test how a certain substance reacts with certain mammalian cells in a petri dish, but that doesn’t tell you how it would impact the rest of the system. So, it might work fine with the cells in the petri dish, but once it encounters nerve cells for example, it might damage them. You need to see the results in something that is actually living.
Animal testing is EXTREMELY expensive (cheap, though, relative to testing on higher order mammals and people, though). For my work alone (which is one testing, in one lab, in one building, of a really big university) I have 500 mouse cages, with a couple of mice per cage. It costs $1.50 per day per cage. That’s nearly 275K a year on the mice alone. So, I assure you, if there were an equally effective way to test these drugs, researchers would be JUMPING on it. We work very hard for every grant dollar we get, and if I could save a million over a 4 year period, I would absolutely do it. And don’t get me wrong - I’m all for finding alternatives, if only to get the annoying PETA people away from my building. :mad: Seriously, I just want to throw my shoe at their heads!! The problem is that replicating a living creature is nearly impossible (ah, the wonder of God’s creations! Seriously, we’re VERY complicated, don’t let anyone tell you different. :))
I don’t want to sugarcoat or mislead by saying they live in a mouse hotel. I’m half kidding about that. The conditions they live in are pretty swank to be sure, but of course, that time does come to an end for them, and the testing can be downright cruel. I don’t want to get too graphic here, but what I’m working on is for Charcot-Marie-Tooth, which is a nerve disorder. Once its time to test the drugs on the mice, the results aren’t very pretty. But I have to remember that those results could INSTEAD be happening in a person, and that would be even worse.
Most of the time, it does go straight from mouse testing to human testing. Testing on larger animals is pretty infrequent.
Sometimes larger animals ARE used though. For example, if you need to look at the effects a drug has on the heart, a mouse heart is incredibly tiny, so pigs are more often used instead since you can actually LOOK at their heart. Again, it’s 275K a year for mice. I have no idea how much it is for larger animals, but I can’t imagine that would be cheap.
Anti-depressants you asked about specifically…well, it’s sad but here goes. To see if the anti-depressant works, one of the tests they do is a shock test. If the mouse doesn’t care that it’s getting shocked then the drug didn’t work. If it tries to get away or fight, then the drug is working. And that’s the sort of the results researchers are hoping to see. There are other tests, too, which also aren’t pretty, but again, it’s either test them on the animals first or go straight to humans.
One drug I worked on turned out to give the mice heart attacks. 🤷 That’s why you do these tests, to get all the bugs out.
The other HUGE benefit to mouse studies specifically (versus larger animals and people) is that these lines have been bred brother to sister for so long that essentially these mice are clones of one another. You simply can’t get a homogeneous population in humans or higher order mammals. It’s important to test a drug on what are essentially clones because then you can isolate that the results you are seeing are the results of the drugs themselves rather than any differences in the mice. Furthermore, mice breed quickly. One of the effects you are looking for too on some of these drugs is how it affects offspring. And mice have offspring FAST. Remember, in the wild, a mouse only lives about 4 months. You’re talking 50 days til they can get pregnant, and a gestation of 20 days with 10-12 pups. I can get to the fourth generation with mice in no time, and, again, if you want drugs to get to market quickly, you need to test on something that breeds quickly.
Oh, and the entire mouse genome has been mapped and there are strains of mice that have been developed specifically with a gene missing to test the impact of that specific gene, which is pretty helpful, and again, not something you can do with people.
And yes, once the animal testing is done, small scale tests are done on willing members of the population (such as yourself and other willing participants, which here, are generally broke university students), but again, you would NOT want to get a drug before it was even tested on mice. I’ve seen drugs have the unintended consequences of sudden heart attacks, blindness, and death. And, I’ve seen alot of drugs that just went kaput and didn’t do anything at all, not even what we were hoping they would do.🤷
 
cont.
Oh, and yeah, sometimes drugs are tested on animals, and then tested on small populations and then introduced to the general population with disastrous consequences. Personally, I would never take a drug the first two years it’s on the market, but that’s me. I don’t know what happened with Viox specifically, but, it’s like I said before, you simply cannot replicate the human person. And even doing testing on small populations, what you’re REALLY and truly finding out is that drug did not harm THAT SPECIFIC person. You are then extrapolating onto the general population, but people are varied, in ways that we don’t even understand. Let’s say for example, that they tested a drug on 500 people. Were any of them tested on a middle aged woman of European descent with a family history of diabetes, a personal history of alcoholism, who ate a vegetarian diet and who also got acupuncture? No? Then when that person finally starts taking the drug, it might have unintended consequences.
The fact is EVERY drug out there is POISON. That’s what it is. It is something that it designed to break something in the human body. We are just hopeful that it is the type of poison that kills what we want it to and leaves everything else alone. 🤷*
 
The reason to test on animals at all is to make sure that the drug has the intended effects and to watch for possible unintended side effects.
First, the drug is tested just on cells maintained in a petri dish. But the problem with that is that it isn’t an entire system. You can, for example, test how a certain substance reacts with certain mammalian cells in a petri dish, but that doesn’t tell you how it would impact the rest of the system. So, it might work fine with the cells in the petri dish, but once it encounters nerve cells for example, it might damage them. You need to see the results in something that is actually living.
Animal testing is EXTREMELY expensive (cheap, though, relative to testing on higher order mammals and people, though). For my work alone (which is one testing, in one lab, in one building, of a really big university) I have 500 mouse cages, with a couple of mice per cage. It costs $1.50 per day per cage. That’s nearly 275K a year on the mice alone. So, I assure you, if there were an equally effective way to test these drugs, researchers would be JUMPING on it. We work very hard for every grant dollar we get, and if I could save a million over a 4 year period, I would absolutely do it. And don’t get me wrong - I’m all for finding alternatives, if only to get the annoying PETA people away from my building. :mad: Seriously, I just want to throw my shoe at their heads!! The problem is that replicating a living creature is nearly impossible (ah, the wonder of God’s creations! Seriously, we’re VERY complicated, don’t let anyone tell you different. :))
I don’t want to sugarcoat or mislead by saying they live in a mouse hotel. I’m half kidding about that. The conditions they live in are pretty swank to be sure, but of course, that time does come to an end for them, and the testing can be downright cruel. I don’t want to get too graphic here, but what I’m working on is for Charcot-Marie-Tooth, which is a nerve disorder. Once its time to test the drugs on the mice, the results aren’t very pretty. But I have to remember that those results could INSTEAD be happening in a person, and that would be even worse.
Most of the time, it does go straight from mouse testing to human testing. Testing on larger animals is pretty infrequent.
Sometimes larger animals ARE used though. For example, if you need to look at the effects a drug has on the heart, a mouse heart is incredibly tiny, so pigs are more often used instead since you can actually LOOK at their heart. Again, it’s 275K a year for mice. I have no idea how much it is for larger animals, but I can’t imagine that would be cheap.
Anti-depressants you asked about specifically…well, it’s sad but here goes. To see if the anti-depressant works, one of the tests they do is a shock test. If the mouse doesn’t care that it’s getting shocked then the drug didn’t work. If it tries to get away or fight, then the drug is working. And that’s the sort of the results researchers are hoping to see. There are other tests, too, which also aren’t pretty, but again, it’s either test them on the animals first or go straight to humans.
One drug I worked on turned out to give the mice heart attacks. 🤷 That’s why you do these tests, to get all the bugs out.
The other HUGE benefit to mouse studies specifically (versus larger animals and people) is that these lines have been bred brother to sister for so long that essentially these mice are clones of one another. You simply can’t get a homogeneous population in humans or higher order mammals. It’s important to test a drug on what are essentially clones because then you can isolate that the results you are seeing are the results of the drugs themselves rather than any differences in the mice. Furthermore, mice breed quickly. One of the effects you are looking for too on some of these drugs is how it affects offspring. And mice have offspring FAST. Remember, in the wild, a mouse only lives about 4 months. You’re talking 50 days til they can get pregnant, and a gestation of 20 days with 10-12 pups. I can get to the fourth generation with mice in no time, and, again, if you want drugs to get to market quickly, you need to test on something that breeds quickly.
Oh, and the entire mouse genome has been mapped and there are strains of mice that have been developed specifically with a gene missing to test the impact of that specific gene, which is pretty helpful, and again, not something you can do with people.
And yes, once the animal testing is done, small scale tests are done on willing members of the population (such as yourself and other willing participants, which here, are generally broke university students), but again, you would NOT want to get a drug before it was even tested on mice. I’ve seen drugs have the unintended consequences of sudden heart attacks, blindness, and death. And, I’ve seen alot of drugs that just went kaput and didn’t do anything at all, not even what we were hoping they would do.🤷
I am glad you are for finding alternatives. I understand that what you do is done to save human lives. It is still not easy for me to accept the suffering of the animals especially when no anaesthesia is given for neurological tests are done. Those are done on moneys and primates too.

I was not paid BTW, it was a drug for something I have.
 
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