Is Answering To Pro Abortion/choice Poster Taking You Away From What You Need To Do About The Issue Of Abortion

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Hi all. I have decided all the twiddle twadlle of the muddle headed pro choicers/abortionists is taking me away from time well spent getting the word out to others who may be better influenced and willing to help spread our values.

Go to Frank Pavone National Director Priests for Life at www.priestsforlife.org to download a copy of WHAT TO DO BEFORE THE END OF ELECTION DAY.

Good luck and God bless to all you pro-lifers. 👍
I love Father Pavone’s site. I finished his book “Ending Abortion” a couple of months ago, and since then I’ve returned to more pro-life activity.

And yes, our resources of time, effort, energy and money must be spent wisely, as in any war. Banning abortion doesn’t require convincing everyone. Instead of spending an hour debating online with one pro-death ideologue, it’s more efficient to spend an hour demonstrating outside an abortion mill, or a half hour writing a letter to a politician regarding a life issue, or ten minutes signing up for a pro-life e-mail action list, or five minutes mailing a check to a pro-life group. I’m not concerned about winning over every last holocaust collaborator. If every person who already opposes the horror of abortion actually took action, this movement would be electrified (yes, I chose that word on purpose, General Powell).
 
I agree. As of now, I quit arguing on these forums with stubborn people who will not be convinced. It is pointless, and I will just spend my time praying for an end to abortion.
God bless everyone.😛
 
Here we have some truth freely mixed with misinformation.
There is a world of difference between a zygote and a baby.
1/ There is a world of difference betyween a zygote and a blastocyst.
2/ There is a world of difference between a blastocyst and an embryo.
3/ There is a world of difference between an embryo and a foetus.
4/ And though it might not be obvious, there is a world of difference bewteen a foetus and a baby waiting to be born.
5/ There is a world of difference between an infant and a toddler.
6/ There is a world of difference between a toddler and an adolescent
7/ There is a world of difference between an adolescent and an adult

Yet all are equally human.
 
That ignorant, fluff-ball, no-experienced empty power suit Sarah Palin doesn’t scare anyone?

marietta
I am not in the least amazed that you didn’t notice that the sum total of your post is nothing more than unsubstantiated name-calling.

JG
 
It has been said before, and will be said again:
You are not voting for the Pope, or the next Messiah.
USA is not, and G_d help us, never shall be a Christian Caliphate.
Of the people
By the people
For the people
Or something very much like that, I believe.

As for when life begins: We do not know.
Best estimates are a few million years after the Earth became cool enough to support liquid water.
But that is not the context you are trying to define, even if that is what your words mean.

The fusion of a spermatazoan and an oocite is not the beginning of life.
It is the beginning of the possibility of a new individual, or several.
Yes, it is certainly the beginning of a new form of, (in our context, here), humanity.
You might call it a human being, for it is definitely human, and definitely a being, ie alive.
However, by that definition, both spermatazoa, and oocites are also human beings.

If you want to define absolutes, then your language needs to be absolute.
Mother Church says, and this is true, that the beginning of every new human life is conception.
That is, the cause of A is B.
That does not mean that for every B there will be an A, or that one B causes one A.
There is much between B and A.
Actually one might say, more accurately:
B:=> n x A, where n is any whole number from zero to, possibly more than four.

So conception does not initiate an individual, for the zygote is free to fission ito identical siblings.

Mother Church has agonized much over when the new individual receives its imortal soul, and left the verdict open.

His Holiness, JP23, in his epistle favoured conception, buit that was just his opinion. You might agree, or disagree.

This is all angels dancing on the head of a pin.
It is undefined, and undefinable.

No-one has yet come up with a better guess than the quickening, or about week 16.

Scientifically, this is feasible, for it represents the infant beginning to run on internal systems, ie, it is the beginning of its independence.
It is certainly a major improvement on birth.

So logically, when, and under what circumstances might a pregnancy be terminated?
1/ When there is a real and present mortal danger to the mother, and thereby to the pregnancy. For the pregnancy cannot be saved, and the mother will also be lost.
2/ Where the pregnancy will not produce a viable delivery, ie, the foetus is ancephalic.
3/ Getting into grey areas: where the pregnancy will result in a hopelessly disabled birth.
Honest judgements would, to varying degrees, support the above.
Below this line, ther are no simple judgements.
Inconvenience, non mortal danger, non-hopeless disability.
Let the objector pay.
If the mother is incapable of raising a severely disabled infant, then thoe who insist that the pregnancy must come to term, are responsible for the upkeep, and development of that disabled child.
In nature, a disabled infant would rapidly come to a sticky end, and so be removed from the genetic pool. Euthanasia is surely preferable to a sticky end.

Pre-quickening termination is a suitable means of euthanasing non viable pregnancies, and involves no suffering to the foetus, as there is then no operable nervous system.

Yes, in the Kingdom of G-d, where non of these bad things happen, let there be no abortions.
But Our Lord also said that in the Kingdom, there would be no marrying, or giving in marriage, no birth, and no death, for we will all be as the angels.

But for now, we have this precious planet to care for, and we must follow the rule imposed upon us by the limited resources of this blessed blue sphere

Don’t get me wrong,
Abortion is not an acceptable means of birth control.
There is only one acceptable means of birth control.

ps.
My view is that once the infant has quickened, it is a baby waiting to be born, and, every effort should be made to ensure a viable live birth, once this moment has passed.
That means that if a termination is then required for urgent reasons, for the welfare of the mother, it must be put off as long as is physically possible, so that the premature nbirth has the best possible chance of survival.
Partial birth termination is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.
What is your religious preference?

JG
 
5/ There is a world of difference between an infant and a toddler.
6/ There is a world of difference between a toddler and an adolescent
7/ There is a world of difference between an adolescent and an adult

Yet all are equally human.
As are the oocite and the spermatazoan.
And they, being alive, and passing through an independent phase of existence, are in that phase at least human beings, in accordance with your definitions.

So LIFE does not begin with conception.
Conception is indeed a very important intersection on a path without end in this world.
It is the start of a new road in an unending journey on the pathway of LIFE.

Your additional statements of 5/, 6/, and 7/, show the arrant nonsense of you logic, resulting from the fuzziness of your language.
Scientific and legal arguements require precise language.

The state changes involved there involve only minor changes to existing systems.
The four examples I gave illucidated a case, in each, where a system, which did not exist before the change, in any form whatever, is not only present after the change, but is fully functional.
It is like comparing a caterpillar with a butterfly.
 
I am not in the least amazed that you didn’t notice that the sum total of your post is nothing more than unsubstantiated name-calling.

JG
When you read posts number 6 and number 7, I’m fairly certain you will pronounce them to be substantial, informed and non-partisan.

That’s the way it works here.

marietta
 
As are the oocite and the spermatazoan.
And they, being alive, and passing through an independent phase of existence, are in that phase at least human beings, in accordance with your definitions.

So LIFE does not begin with conception.
“My definitions?” How on earth do you claim to know my definitions? I never said anything that would support the proposition that a sperm constitutes human life.
Conception is indeed a very important intersection on a path without end in this world.
It is the start of a new road in an unending journey on the pathway of LIFE.

Your additional statements of 5/, 6/, and 7/, show the arrant nonsense of you logic, resulting from the fuzziness of your language.
Scientific and legal arguements require precise language.
I’ve been a practicing attorney since 1991. I therefore have a passing familirity with the notion that “legal arguements require precise language.” Thanks anyway, though. My language was quite precise. I meant exactly what I said. Every human being is equally human.
The state changes involved there involve only minor changes to existing systems.
The four examples I gave illucidated a case, in each, where a system, which did not exist before the change, in any form whatever, is not only present after the change, but is fully functional.
It is like comparing a caterpillar with a butterfly.
Where do you get the assumption that a “minor change” occurs in one case while a “major change” occurs in another? By what criteria do you choose to distinguish a minor change from a major change? What kind of change increases a person’s degree of humanity, and what kind of charnge decreases a person’s degree of humanity?
 
When you read posts number 6 and number 7, I’m fairly certain you will pronounce them to be substantial, informed and non-partisan.

That’s the way it works here.

marietta
I read them. They are partisan political opinions backed up by actual voting records and verbalized positions of the candidate.

“Substance”, anyway.
 
“My definitions?” How on earth do you claim to know my definitions? I never said anything that would support the proposition that a sperm constitutes human life.
The parameters you used to define a zygote as a human being, can easily be applied to the spermatazoan and the oocite, to qualify them as such.
Prior to conception, they are both free living independent human entities, which under the lingustics which define a zygote as a human being, also qualify them.
I’ve been a practicing attorney since 1991. I therefore have a passing familirity with the notion that “legal arguements require precise language.” Thanks anyway, though. My language was quite precise. I meant exactly what I said. Every human being is equally human.
Good, then you know better than to use imprecise language in these arguments.
Where do you get the assumption that a “minor change” occurs in one case while a “major change” occurs in another? By what criteria do you choose to distinguish a minor change from a major change?
Consider a car, (sorry, automobile), under construction…
The chassis, (frame), is built, and the body work is attached, as are the wheels and tyres.
There might be no seats or glass, but it looks like a car.
But as yet, there is no engine or transmission fitted.
Consider another. The engine has been fitted, and the gearbox, and all the electrics and control gear, but there is no fuel in the tank.
This second one, now moves to the testing and tuning area, where fuel is added, and the engine is started, and tuned, and the inherent characteristics of the new engine are learnt by the electronic control gear.
Of the three cases, it is surely clear, that there is a significantly different state between the first two cases, whereas between the second two cases, there is only a development of the same state.
The cases I illucidated were of the first kind, those you did, were of the second kind.
Now, that is scientifically clear.
Yes, I know that attorneys have been trained in the misuse of language to score oratorical points, but they should be aware of scientific equivalences.
I am not here for oratorical point scoring, I am chasing scientific truth.
The change in the presence or absence of a system is a major change, the adjustment of an existing system is a minor change.
If the system under discussion is a major system, such as the CNS, then that makes a world of difference.
What kind of change increases a person’s degree of humanity, and what kind of change decreases a person’s degree of humanity?
Do you mean genetic humanity, or do you mean spiritual humanity?
Again, a world of difference.
An ancephalic foetus is fully genetically human, but will never be to any extent at all spiritually human.
Apply your considerations to two kinds of conjoined twins:
Case one: two heads, but only one trunk, two arms and two legs.
A viable organism, comprising in every sense, two persons.
Case two: one bifurcated trunk, with only one head, but with four arms and four legs.
Here again, a viable organism, comprising a single person, with extraneous appendages. which are dispensible.

Any reasonable person will thus equate personhood with the presence of a functional brain, the lack of which implies absolutely, the absense of a person.

Is that clear and reasonable?
 
The parameters you used to define a zygote as a human being, can easily be applied to the spermatazoan and the oocite, to qualify them as such.
What parameters? How do you know what parameters I used to define a zygote as a human being? Are you attributing other posters’ words to me?
Good, then you know better than to use imprecise language in these arguments.
And that’s why I haven’t. I meant exactly the words I used.
 
Originally Posted by Jade Tiger
That is nonsense. Every human has the right to life. You yourself admit that the tiniest zygote is human in every sense of the word. The only difference between a foetus and a newborn is size and maturity. The Church teaches that the soul is joined to the body at the moment of conception.

NO, that is FALSE. Mother Church has not given a definitive judgement on this.
His Holiness, JP23 gave his judgement, but that was advisory, and not binding teaching.
Just in case casual readers get confused by this claim, here are the relevant paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not “advisory” and is indeed “binding teaching” for Catholics.

“Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life…” CCC 2270

“Since the fist century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable …” CCC 2271

“From its conception, the child has a right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice gravely contrary to the moral law. The church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.” CCC 2322.

“Because it should be treated as a person from conception, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed like every other human being.” CCC 2323.
 
What parameters? How do you know what parameters I used to define a zygote as a human being? Are you attributing other posters’ words to me?
The parameters you used can be derived from the definition you generated:
1/ single cell organism,
2/ human DNA.,
3/ independent existence.
Haploid vs diploid is in this context irrelevant. Many organisms spend much of their existence in the haploid condition, and only unite to diploid for reproduction. This indeed is exactly what gametes do, but their independent existence is seen to be short.
Consider though the may-fly.
It exists as a ‘worm’ for several years, but as a fly, for only a day.
And that’s why I haven’t. I meant exactly the words I used.
Excellent.
Now we both fully understand the ‘rules’ of this logic.
 
The parameters you used can be derived from the definition you generated:
1/ single cell organism,
2/ human DNA.,
3/ independent existence.
Haploid vs diploid is in this context irrelevant. Many organisms spend much of their existence in the haploid condition, and only unite to diploid for reproduction. This indeed is exactly what gametes do, but their independent existence is seen to be short.
Consider though the may-fly.
It exists as a ‘worm’ for several years, but as a fly, for only a day.Excellent.
Now we both fully understand the ‘rules’ of this logic.
That wasn’t me. That was Timbothefiveth. I never posted the definition you cited. Go back and read the thread. You have attributed another poster’s words to me.

Thanks for the lecture on precision. 🙂
 
That wasn’t me. That was Timbothefiveth. I never posted the definition you cited. Go back and read the thread. You have attributed another poster’s words to me.

Thanks for the lecture on precision. 🙂
Sorry, my error, but you used that definition as a basis in your arguement, that is why I attributed it to you.
 
Just in case casual readers get confused by this claim, here are the relevant paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not “advisory” and is indeed “binding teaching” for Catholics.

“Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life…” CCC 2270

“Since the fist century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable …” CCC 2271

“From its conception, the child has a right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice gravely contrary to the moral law. The church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.” CCC 2322.

“Because it should be treated as a person from conception, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed like every other human being.” CCC 2323.
I agree, but read carefully what you have quoted, and what I posted.

I never mentioned human rights, and the catechism makes no reference to the soul.

You are conflating the two concepts.

You are entitled to the opinion that the two concepts might be conflated, but Mother Church does not teach that.
 
No, I didn’t use that definition as a basis for my argument.
I checked your reference, and all I could find was this:[sign] Timbothefiveth
New Member
You might call it a human being, for it is definitely human, and definitely a being, ie alive.
However, by that definition, both spermatazoa, and oocites are also human beings.
Wrong! The sperm and egg are merely cells of the parent, once they fuse, they have their own DNA pattern, and are human.
:[/sign]
So the definition was mine, but was not rejected or disproved, and seems to have been built upon by subsequent poster, including you.
For if you assert that a zygote is a human being, then you are subscribing to the logical chain in the definition I made, claiming that oocites and spermatazoans are also human beings.
In ordinary language, of course, that claim is absurd, but we are not using ordinary language, but scientificly precise language, in which, the definition stands, as do the seemingly absurd conclusions.
I hope this clears the matter, No insult was here intended.
 
Consider a car, (sorry, automobile), under construction…
So under this analogy of human life to a car, it would be fair to assume that let’s say an grown human adult that served in war, lost his eyesite and hearing and maybe a limb in battle. He is no longer a human? I mean, take the motor and wheels off the car, it resembles a car, but its no longer a “car” anymore, according to your analogy, is it?

Life begins at conception, you can use all the a+b=c **** you want, but when take the time to get out of your head and look into your heart there is a whole different explanation of things.

Edited by moderator to remove political statement.
 
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