is antisemitism and anti zionism anti Christian?

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chosen_people said:
Is antisemitism and anti zionism anti Christian?
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This looks like a loaded question…but here’s my own perspective.

The failure to see any human being as one of God’s children, and treat them as such, is anti Christian. So anti-semitism is anti-Christian.

In terms of Zionism, I needed to look up the definition to be sure I knew what it meant.

Here’s the on-line definition from m-w.com…“an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel.”

This looks to me to be more of a political question rather than a religious one. But most Christians (in the USA) seem to support Israel with more fervor than Jews do (in the USA) - from my own limited observations. In fact, I’d say that American Christians are the best friends the Israelis have right now 🙂
 
Thank you for responding

I didn’t intend to ask a “loaded” question but one in which I have a real interest and one in which I would greatly appreciate the views of Christians

one example: My grandmother’s great great great great great great grandfather was a local village rabbi in Russia. Christians came to his village and demanded that he convert to Christianity in the belief that if he converted so would all the Jews of the village (I require an explanation of the importance of converting Jews even by force and coercion). When he refused he was burnt alive at the stake (needless to say he is an historical Jewish martyr). We’re the Christians who attempted to force convert him and all the Jews of the village and subsequently murdered the Rabbi for refusing, acting in the Christian faith as “good” Christians or as “bad” Christians? If as bad Christians to be condemned, why does Christianity not revile the Crusades where the Crusaders on the way to the Holyland massacred over a hundred thousand Jews? Why is the word “Crusade” used even today in Christian circles in a positive sense?

The inclusion of zionism in the dialogue is not to enter into a political discussion but because of my feeling that certain Christian groups, especially in North America where outward
antisemitism is politically incorrect, have adopted anti zionism to give vent to underlying religious antisemitism ( I am aware that certain other Christian groups are vehemently pro zionist, to the best of my knowledge because of their belief that the return of the Jews to their land signals the “second coming”
 
chosen_people said:
Is antisemitism and anti zionism anti Christian?
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Anti-Semitism is (I have never met an anti-Zionist that was not an anti-semite just beneath the surface or overtly). Jesus is a Jew. If you hate Jews, you hate the race Jesus chose to be incarnated into.

Mel
 
Melchior said:
I have never met an anti-Zionist that was not an anti-semite just beneath the surface or overtly
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Hello, it’s a pleasure 🙂

I object to Zionism on the grounds that it carved out territory and told the inhabitants ‘this is someone else’s country now’. Very similar in my view to the actions of the colonialists in central Africa, which is now in chaos in large part because of the drawing of borders without regard for the inhabitants.
 
chosen_people said:
Thank you for responding

I didn’t intend to ask a “loaded” question but one in which I have a real interest and one in which I would greatly appreciate the views of Christians

one example: My grandmother’s great great great great great great grandfather was a local village rabbi in Russia. Christians came to his village and demanded that he convert to Christianity in the belief that if he converted so would all the Jews of the village (I require an explanation of the importance of converting Jews even by force and coercion). When he refused he was burnt alive at the stake (needless to say he is an historical Jewish martyr). We’re the Christians who attempted to force convert him and all the Jews of the village and subsequently murdered the Rabbi for refusing, acting in the Christian faith as “good” Christians or as “bad” Christians? If as bad Christians to be condemned, why does Christianity not revile the Crusades where the Crusaders on the way to the Holyland massacred over a hundred thousand Jews? Why is the word “Crusade” used even today in Christian circles in a positive sense?

The inclusion of zionism in the dialogue is not to enter into a political discussion but because of my feeling that certain Christian groups, especially in North America where outward
antisemitism is politically incorrect, have adopted anti zionism to give vent to underlying religious antisemitism ( I am aware that certain other Christian groups are vehemently pro zionist, to the best of my knowledge because of their belief that the return of the Jews to their land signals the “second coming”
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You know more of this “burning at the stake” incident than I do obviously. If it was in Russia, then it would have been Orthodox Catholics involved most likely. So far as I know, for both Orthodox and Latin Rite Catholics, the people involved would be “bad Catholics”.

So far as the Crusades, they had some good points and some bad points. Generally speaking, the Muslims had conquered, by forced conversion, about 2/3 of the “known” world - which had previously been Catholic (which did not happen by forced conversion). The Crusades were intended as a defensive action to halt Islam in its tracks (and what better motive could you come up with than to re-capture the Holy Land?)

On the bad side - yes, some of the Crusaders got out of control (for reasons not always religious i.e. greed). I’ve read that the 100K number of Jews killed is highly exagerrated, but I do not doubt that many were killed. The crusaders also looted and killed many in Byzantium, which was the last remaining Christian enclave in that area of the world. So their misdeeds were not merely confined to the Jews. They were “equal opportunity” invaders :o

Actually - It was my understanding that the Pope had formally apologized for the misdeeds of the Crusaders.

The word Crusade, despite it’s checkered history, does retain a positive sense in that it means “A bunch of people coming together, with a single purpose, to do God’s (good) will.” Noboby who uses this word today is thinking of finding a bunch of Jews (or Byzantines, or Muslims) and massacring them.

Most Christians have a great love for, and respect for the Jews (as a historical people, not necessarily for any one particular Jew). The whole basis of Christianity is Judaism. As the (religious) bumper sticker says “My boss is a Jewish carpenter.” I said in a previous post that Judaism is the great pyramid upon which the capstone (Christianity) is placed. This is totally independent of the “second coming.” Some small Christian sects have that interpertation, but the mainstream Christian religions accept Judaism as [excuse this somewhat insensitive analogy] the tool by which God brought Salvation to all of mankind - through Jesus.

Of course there are some anti-semites in the world, even in the Christian churches. As for anti-zionism being a vent for an underlying anti-semitism…it seems to me that most anti-zionists in the USA are actually Jewish :confused:

Perhaps I live a sheltered life 😉
 
Mirdath said:
Hello, it’s a pleasure 🙂

I object to Zionism on the grounds that it carved out territory and told the inhabitants ‘this is someone else’s country now’. Very similar in my view to the actions of the colonialists in central Africa, which is now in chaos in large part because of the drawing of borders without regard for the inhabitants.
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OK - so you’re an anti-zionist. Is that an official policy of the “etc.” religion? 🙂

Are you anti-semitic?

So throughout history (at least middle east history), after conquering the place, has ANYONE actually “regarded the inhabitants” when drawing the borders? It’s a good idea. But was it ever done? Just curious why you expect it to be different now.
 
ricmat said:
OK - so you’re an anti-zionist.
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YUP.
zionism: the movement dedicated to establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine
Are you anti-semitic?
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NOPE!
*anti-semitic:discrimination against or persecution of Jews
*
Also can we please note that there are many Jews that are anti-zionists so does that make them anti-semitic too?
 
Karin said:
Also can we please note that there are many Jews that are anti-zionists so does that make them anti-semitic too?
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I actually referred to that in my post immediately above.

I also noted in my first post that the anti-semitism thing is a religious question and the anti-zionist thing is more of a political question, therefore they don’t have to be connected.

So far as the establishment of Israel after WW2, it probably seemed like a good idea at the time.
 
If being pro-Zionism means that it’s alright to throw Arabs out of their homes in order to establish a state ruled by non-Arabs, then I would say that it’s anti-Christian and anti-Justice.
 
pro_universal said:
If being pro-Zionism means that it’s alright to throw Arabs out of their homes in order to establish a state ruled by non-Arabs, then I would say that it’s anti-Christian and anti-Justice.
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I don’t have a horse in this race, but I’ll play the devil’s advocate for a while 🙂

The way I heard it was that Arabs in Israel are better off economically, and have more freedoms (including the freedom to vote) than Arabs outside Israel. And watching the news, it seems that more often than not, it’s Israelis that are being forced out of their houses in order to trade “land for peace”.

So…who should own Palestine / Israel / Holy Land?

Seriously.
 
ricmat said:
I don’t have a horse in this race, but I’ll play the devil’s advocate for a while 🙂

The way I heard it was that Arabs in Israel are better off economically, and have more freedoms (including the freedom to vote) than Arabs outside Israel.
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There are two problems with this justification:
  1. Improving the economy doesn’t justify depriving people of self-determination. That was the classic reason offered for colonialism, and I think we can all agree that colonization and disenfranchisement is unjust.
  2. The Arabs in Israel proper are only 10 percent of the Arabs who used to live there. 90 percent of the Arab population was expelled in the first war by Jewish terrorist organizations and other military means.
And the Arabs who live in the West Bank (which is claimed as Israeli land by Israel) do not have the right to vote, and are living in a state of poverty comparable to that of Haiti’s. So many of the Arabs under Israeli rule are far, far worse off today than before.
And watching the news, it seems that more often than not, it’s Israelis that are being forced out of their houses in order to trade “land for peace”.
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So…who should own Palestine / Israel / Holy Land?
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Seriously.
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If this is your perception, you are not watching the news. There are about 400,000 settlers living in Jewish-only neighborhoods built on the West Bank (which legally isn’t Israel, but Israel claims it anyway) and all of East Jerusalem has been annexed. “Land for peace” never happened, and Israel does not currently recognize any legitimate Palestinian property claims.

The people who should own Palestine are the people who were unjustly expelled, and who continue to be a majority of the people living there. That means the Arabs.
 
My 3 questions:

1) When and how did Arabs go to Palestine and possess the land?
2)Does pro-Arabism have anything to do with Islam and the anti-Judaism it fervently supports?
**3)**What would Israel do if the Arabs in Palestine were non-Muslim?

Theos Mazi sas,
Angelos N. T.
 
Angelos said:
My 3 questions:

1) When and how did Arabs go to Palestine and possess the land?
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Arabs assimilated the Aramaic and Syriac speakers (both closely related to Arabic) with the support of Jews in 7th century. The Arabs were able, with Jewish support, to take Palestine from the oppressive Byzantine regime.
2)Does pro-Arabism have anything to do with Islam and the anti-Judaism it fervently supports?
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It does not and never has supported anti-Judaism. Before the secular, communist ideology of Zionism (and it is both-secular and communist in origin), Muslims and Jews cooperated and lived in peace.
**3)**What would Israel do if the Arabs in Palestine were non-Muslim?
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Many of the Arabs in Palestine are non-Muslim; they are Christians. Israel treats them just as poorly as it treats Muslims.
 
pro_universal said:
The people who should own Palestine are the people who were unjustly expelled, and who continue to be a majority of the people living there. That means the Arabs.
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Tell me, how many people in the history of the world have had “self determination?”

So…the Arabs that were unjustly expelled. Who owned the land before they took control? Who did they expel? Who did they disinfranchise? Why not give it to them instead?

And so forth and so forth.

The Holy Land has been controlled by [at least]
The Egyptians
The Hittites
The Caananites etc.
The original Israelis
The Assyrians
The Babylonians
The Persians
The Greeks
The Romans
The Muslims (Iraqi based I believe)
The Crusaders (briefly)
The Mongols
The Turks
The British
The “current” Israelis.

Maybe we should give it back to all of them and let them “self determine” things. That’s fair, don’t you agree?

I agree with you that to the extent possible, the Israelis should treat their citizens well, Arab and Jew alike. And I believe that they do. But to keep out the people that want to kill them. Doesn’t that just make sense?

How are Jews treated in the Arab world? Does your compassion extend to them? In all fairness, it should.

BTW - your term “expelled” I believe is more correctly rendered as “chose to leave / desired to leave / couldn’t stand the thought of being in Israel chose to leave”.
 
pro_universal said:
Arabs assimilated the Aramaic and Syriac speakers (both closely related to Arabic) with the support of Jews in 7th century. The Arabs were able, with Jewish support, to take Palestine from the oppressive Byzantine regime.

It does not and never has supported anti-Judaism. Before the secular, communist ideology of Zionism (and it is both-secular and communist in origin), Muslims and Jews cooperated and lived in peace.

Many of the Arabs in Palestine are non-Muslim; they are Christians. Israel treats them just as poorly as it treats Muslims.
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Some posts on this thread remind me of the following:

From Monty Python and The Holy Grail:

DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An’ how’d you get that, eh? By exploitin’ the workers – by ‘angin’ on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic an’ social differences in our society! If there’s ever going to be any progress–

[snip…]

WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we’re all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn’t know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You’re fooling yourself. We’re living in a dictatorship.
A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes–
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That’s what it’s all about if only people would–
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?
WOMAN: No one lives there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don’t have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We’re an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,–
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more–
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh – who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn’t vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don’t vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing]
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen – strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just ‘cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin’ I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they’d put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I’m being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that, eh? That’s what I’m on about – did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn’t you?
 
In regard to zionism - who more than Christians who have adopted the hebrew bible as part of their own (“Old Testament” in their terminology) should be aware of the historical connection of the Jews to their land which begins with Abraham 1200 years before the birth of Jesus ( a Jew) and continues on today over 3000 years later - the first Arabs to invade Israel (which the roman emperor Hadrian renamed Palestine in the second century of the common era to punish the Jews for their uprising against Rome) came more than six hundred years after Jesus and almost two millenium after the Jews arrived.

, Israel is a democracy that respects the right of all to practice their religion of choice (with arab members of knesset (the israeli parliament), arab judges - including a supreme court judge and likely this week an arab minister in the government). It is the only country in the middle east where the Christian population has grown. Yasser Arafat and his palestinian arab supporters took over southern lebanon after their failed coup against King Hussein of Jordan in the seventies and decimated the Christian population. Since Israel’s relinquishing control of Bethlehem to the Palestinian Authority the Christian population has gone from a majority population to an oppressed minority. Try smuggling a bible into Saudi Arabia - its punishable by death. Racism? Aparthied? Its illegal for a Jew (that’s right Jew not just Israeli) to enter Saudi Arabia. So when certain Christian groups are anti zionist and talk about their anti zionism in “moral” terms I too am more than a little suspect that what we have here is nothing more than antisemitism.

I have one more sad personal true story about the morality of the zionist jewish state of Israel. A while back my cousin, a med student, was killed by palestinian arab terrorist bomb while riding a Tel Aviv bus. His family decided to donate his organs for transplant. All transplant recipients were decided by strict medical criteria. By a twist of fate, and here’s irony for you, all the transplant recipients were palestinian arabs.

Finally, while it is true that my ancestor the Rabbi was killed by Christians who were presumably Russian Orthodox it should be remembered that most of the mass murders of Jews and most of the forced coversions of Jews over the centuries have been done by Roman Catholics. A recent example is when Jewish holocaust survivors tried to go back to their homes in Poland after the war many were murdered in pogroms.
 
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