Is anyone else bothered

[tecvba]

If the only reason for the SSPX to exist was that the Traditional Latin mass was not observed then there really is no longer a reason to withhold total reconciliation with Rome now that Our Holy Father has given the TLM back to us. Even before that there were masses offered by the FSSP but these were probably limited to isolated areas where the bishops allowed the TLM to be said. Now, however, any priest can say the TLM without his bishop’s permission. I think people will find there is more than just the mass that separates the SSPX from full unity because if the TLM was all, they would not need to exist anymore. The SSPV is a totally different thing though. They don’t recognize the pope at all.

 

[KindredSoul]

. Although I have to differ in one thing - if you keep attending a Mass rife with abuses, one can very definitely be affected spiritually / morally after some time. Its best to try and find a reverent and orthodox Mass to avoid the attacks on the soul.

I do agree with this; my point in that particular matter was that, if there absolutely is no better Mass available (due to a matter of gross impracticality, etc.) then it is better and acceptable to attend the Mass rife with abuses, guarding yourself by a very strong resolve and firm foundation in the Faith, rather than not to attend Mass at all…the abuses in that case do not count against the individual Catholic who remains orthodox despite them, while missing Mass altogether would. That was my only meaning in that regard. But I agree with you completely that if there is a more orthodox and reverent option available, a person should go there…because Mass, of all things, should be a time of sanctuary from the errors and abuses of the world, rather than present examples of those very things.

Blessings in Christ.

 

[franklinf]

I do agree with this; my point in that particular matter was that, if there absolutely is no better Mass available (due to a matter of gross impracticality, etc.) then it is better and acceptable to attend the Mass rife with abuses, guarding yourself by a very strong resolve and firm foundation in the Faith, rather than not to attend Mass at all…the abuses in that case do not count against the individual Catholic who remains orthodox despite them, while missing Mass altogether would. That was my only meaning in that regard. But I agree with you completely that if there is a more orthodox and reverent option available, a person should go there…because Mass, of all things, should be a time of sanctuary from the errors and abuses of the world, rather than present examples of those very things.

Blessings in Christ.

Well put! I see what your saying now - misunderstanding on my part.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

And somehow it’s the SSPX that has the 99.9% Mass attendance rate and a general lack of confusion regarding all things Catholic. Even the children know their faith. You should be wary of calling the SSPX’s manoeuvers “twisting”. In a modern church fraught with ambiguity, emotionally based arguments, and political belly-upping, the SSPX is a bastian of clearheaded thinking. Case in point: Their claim that the EF hadn’t been abrogated. SSPX clerics, 1, modern church clerics, 0. Another case in point: the recent election where the majority of ‘modern’ Catholics voted for the most pro-baby murder, pro-gay ‘marriage’ candidate that government has seen. I suppose the economy and the lives of 4,000 volunteer soldiers are more important than the lives of 50 million+ unborn children…speaking of ‘twisting’ and ‘satisfying arguments’…ahem, everybody vote for Obama, YAY!

The OF in and of itself isn’t invalid, and I don’t know any SSPX person who has said otherwise. However, the OF can be invalid given the disposition of trad priests versus many, many OF priests. Trad priests take their job seriously and it is quite obvious that many OF priests don’t. The Masses are equal insofar as they turn bread and wine into Christ, however, if you could either choose a TLM versus an oft abuse-filled OF, which would you choose? Why take the bad with the good?

What liturgical abuses have you wintessed at the EF? Was this pre-Vatican II? I ask because perhaps once the OF came on the scene and people realized what had been lost, perhaps then they made sure to celebrate the TLM perfectly. To date I can’t say that I’ve seen an abuse at a TLM and it’s been about 4 years now.

Perhaps it is time for OF priests to realize that the OF can be very solemn and beautiful. I think that this is the dividing issue. My 22 years in the OF showed that priests wanted to perpetuate more and more banal ‘worship services’. Who here attends an abuse free OF?

I don’t know about you, but I have a wife and children to think about. I cannot “simply attend the other”. I haven’t been to any NO church since I’ve lived here, and I wouldn’t arbitrarily go to one and possibly endager the faiths of my wife and sons by showing up at a veritable circus full of who knows what.

Very nice post here. You said it.

My wife & I (& a friend) visited the beautiful new Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in La Crosse, WI, yesterday. The entire grounds and especially the church are incredible. And, we were stunned to find, attending Mass, that they built a Communion rail, and Communion is given kneeling and on the tongue in the (novus ordo) Masses there!

Things are coming around.

 

[Col317]

Sometimes more traditional? Masses should always be traditional. The Catholic Faith and her Traditions do not change. I am saddened that there needs to be a distinction made for traditional Catholics. It just goes to show how much modernism and liberalism has infiltrated the Church. Although, to be honest if one is not traditional is one Catholic? If one ignores the dogmas and doctrines of the Church (i.e. Mass attendance, Real Presence in the Eucharist, abortion, etc) is one really Catholic? In that sense there is no distinction between traditional Catholics and Catholics. The teachings of the Church and what the Faithful believe are today what they were in 1950, 1850, 1750, 1250, 450, etc regardless of what some may say.

franklinf,

You must have been looking for something that I wasn’t saying. I said traditional… not Traditional. All of the Masses I go to are Traditional. As far as the music, etc., not so “traditional”. Is that really that important? I don’t think so.

Actually, you know what, I probably go to the most conservative Church in the area. Please show some charity and don’t ASSUME that I hold beliefs contrary to the Church.

Col317

 

[franklinf]

franklinf,

You must have been looking for something that I wasn’t saying.

I said traditional… not Traditional.

All of the Masses I go to are Traditional.

As far as the music, etc., not so “traditional”.

Actually, you know what, I probably go to the most conservative Church I know of… I’m really surprised you would “go there”… why don’t you at least ask me what I believe before assuming all those views you mentioned are mine. On EVERY single belief, I hold the Church’s teaching.

It really bothers me (as this post says) that YOU would assume that I don’t obey the Church. Somewhere, I think, that is called being judgmental. Watch your step.

Col317

You are the one that is mistaken. I never went there nor assumed that is what you believe. Reread my post. Where did I call out your positions? I am not the one trying to find something that is not there.

The first sentence alone was in reference to what you wrote. The remainder is in a response towards what the OP wrote.

“I am saddened that there needs to be a distinction made for traditional Catholics…”

**I **am saddened - this is in reference to you how?

 

[Col317]

You are the one that is mistaken. I never went there nor assumed that is what you believe. Reread my post. Where did I call out your positions? I am not the one trying to find something that is not there.

The first sentence alone was in reference to what you wrote. The remainder is in a response towards what the OP wrote.

As you can tell I revised my post a few times. I was quite… hurt/insulted/annoyed because I thought you had assumed I was a liberal Catholic who specifically trumpeted that I went to a non-Traditional (note the “T”) Church…

I’m glad to know that’s not the case. Thank you. Please accept my apology.

I guess I’m still bothered by the approach one uses to reach out to “fallen away” Catholics (all those out of step with the Church).

Can we follow Jesus’ approach and…

Pray

live in community with

and serve in charity those who disagree with Catholic teaching.

Example is more persuasive than argument. Would you agree?

Col317

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Very nice post here. You said it.

My wife & I (& a friend) visited the beautiful new Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in La Crosse, WI, yesterday. The entire grounds and especially the church are incredible. And, we were stunned to find, attending Mass, that they built a Communion rail, and Communion is given kneeling and on the tongue in the (novus ordo) Masses there!

Things are coming around.

Excellent. May it continue elsewhere.

 

[CradleCath]

There are many things that “bother” me, first & often foremost is the tendency to equate traditional Catholicsm with the SSPX/SSPV movements. Traditionalism in the Catholic Church…according to the very definition of 'traditional"… cannot be connected to schismatic movements. Tradtitional Latin Catholics, in the Latin rite, do NOT regularly attend non-Catholic Churches. We do not go to a Methodist or Lutheran service to meet our Sun. obligation… nor do we attend an SSPX “Mass”. In order to be considered a Traditionalist Catholic, one nust be in communion with the Pope. The SSPX denigrates the Holy Father, disobeys him & I want nothing to do with them.

 

[requiemaeturnum]

There are many things that “bother” me, first & often foremost is the tendency to equate traditional Catholicsm with the SSPX/SSPV movements. Traditionalism in the Catholic Church…according to the very definition of 'traditional"… cannot be connected to schismatic movements. Tradtitional Latin Catholics, in the Latin rite, do NOT regularly attend non-Catholic Churches. We do not go to a Methodist or Lutheran service to meet our Sun. obligation… nor do we attend an SSPX “Mass”. In order to be considered a Traditionalist Catholic, one nust be in communion with the Pope. The SSPX denigrates the Holy Father, disobeys him & I want nothing to do with them.

SSPX Masses are valid. We do not denigrate the Holy Father- in fact on our homepage, we have a prayer for him right as soon as the page loads. We follow the Pope when he is Catholic. That just about sums it up.

To answer the OP, yes it is disturbing. I am thinking that most Catholics do not even know that the Latin Mass exists or is even still celebrated.

 

[tobinatorstark]

SSPX Masses are valid. We do not denigrate the Holy Father- in fact on our homepage, we have a prayer for him right as soon as the page loads. We follow the Pope when he is Catholic. That just about sums it up.

To answer the OP, yes it is disturbing. I am thinking that most Catholics do not even know that the Latin Mass exists or is even still celebrated.

When is the Pope not Catholic?? I do no what the Latin Mass is and I do except the Pre-Tridentine mass, Tridentine Mass and Novus Ordo. Do you??

 

[Col317]

SSPX Masses are valid. We do not denigrate the Holy Father- in fact on our homepage, we have a prayer for him right as soon as the page loads. We follow the Pope when he is Catholic. That just about sums it up.

To answer the OP, yes it is disturbing. I am thinking that most Catholics do not even know that the Latin Mass exists or is even still celebrated.

I agree with the poster above.

This makes no sense.

Logically, if A = A, it’s A. The Pope is Catholic. A = A.

While one is allowed to say I agree with the Pope when A = B (where B is your version of Catholicism), it is IMPOSSIBLE that A will EVER equal B since A = A.

I’m an engineer.

Col317

 

[Col317]

Oh, a follow-up.

If you were about to reply, "well… I agree with the Pope… and I believe ‘A’… "… then why are you SSPX?

Col317

 

[rosarygirl7]

Wow, I thought it was just good Catholics and lazy ones! But you have to stay with the Pope. Not following the leader of the Catholic Church is not being Catholic!

 

[CradleCath]

SSPX Masses are valid. We do not denigrate the Holy Father- in fact on our homepage, we have a prayer for him right as soon as the page loads. We follow the Pope when he is Catholic. That just about sums it up.

You “follow the Pope when he’s Catholic”? How superior you sound.

I read your Superior General’s Letter to Friends & Benefactors #73…written after the Motu Propio was issued. I read the excuses he gave for for rejecting Pope Benedict’s efforts at reconciliation & they WERE excuses, not reasons.

As I said earlier, I want nothing to do with the SSPX as an institution, nor will I give support to it by attending their Mass. I find, however, that I have some things in common with the member’s thoughts & feelings. Having been a 20 yr. old Cradle Catholic when my beloved Mass was turned into a 3 ring circus, my childhood parish Church gutted & I found myself sitting in pews watching 50 yr. old liturgical dancers in the Sanctuary…I wasn’t very happy. However, I did not “cut & run” from the Church created by Christ, Himself. Instead, I prayed & did the best I could, trusting always that…though people would forsake His Church, Christ wouldn’t.

IMO., Pope Benedict is the best thing that’s happened to the Church in decades & he has many enemies. He could use the support of the SSPXers, as they are traditional Catholics just as he is. Instead of support, he gets nothing but rejection & criticism. I hope that he doesn’t offer the hand of reconciliation & peace again. He doesn’t deserve the rejection he’ll face & neither do the Traditional Latin Catholics who could so use people with a mind-set that values the Tridentine Mass.

There have been too many arguments between Catholics & the members of the SSPX on these boards. I’m not going to get involved in another one. I said my piece & I won’t continue to post about it.

 

[CradleCath]

just as he is. Instead of support, he gets nothing but rejection & criticism. I hope that he doesn’t offer the hand of reconciliation & peace again. He doesn’t deserve the rejection he’ll face & neither do the Traditional Latin Catholics who could so use people with a mind-set that values the Tridentine Mass.

Should have been…their beliefs are much like those of Traditional Catholics.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

.

So you’re saying Catholics who attend SSPX churches aren’t actually Catholic?

 

[Genesis315]

Having been a 20 yr. old Cradle Catholic when my beloved Mass was turned into a 3 ring circus, my childhood parish Church gutted & I found myself sitting in pews watching 50 yr. old liturgical dancers in the Sanctuary…I wasn’t very happy. However, I did not “cut & run” from the Church created by Christ, Himself. Instead, I prayed & did the best I could, trusting always that…though people would forsake His Church, Christ wouldn’t.

 

[eelpis]

Yes, there is only one Catholic faith. There has never been 2 or 3, Our Lord Jesus established just one.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Yes, there is only one Catholic faith. There has never been 2 or 3, Our Lord Jesus established just one.

Agreed.

Also, CradleCath, where did you go? I’m wondering about post #56, if what you said was a typo, (or if you really meant that SSPX attendees aren’t Catholic, which is what it looks like to me). I imagine it wasn’t a typo since you don’t use the most charitable language regarding people who attend their Masses anyway, e.g. ‘cut & run’ etc, however, I’ll wait for your reply. Thanks.