Is Anyone familiar with the Third Secret of Fatima?

[Like]

Mr.Taylor, What’s your source for all you have posted? It wouldn’t be
fatima.org/ would it?

 

[John_Taylor]

Mr.Taylor, What’s your source for all you have posted? It wouldn’t be
fatima.org/ would it?

Yes, it is. I am presenting Fr Gruner’s side of the story…the arguments he presents in his defense. When a non-Catholic sincerely wants to know the “Catholic side of the story” don’t we rightly insist that they seek out authentic Catholic teaching from Catholics in good standing with the Church? If someone wants to know Fr Gruner’s side of his story, doesn’t the same hold true out of justice to Fr Gruner?

Do you have information from the actual people involved with Fr Gruner’s case that would prove his defense false? Preferably, do you know exactly for “what act of disobedience” and “by whom” Fr Gruner is “suspended”? Was his appeal ruled on by Pope John Paul II before he died? or perhaps now by Pope Benedict XVI?

If Fr Gruner is in fact a heretic or a schismatic priest then I would like to know how such is true. If he is in fact in defiance against a lawful command from the Vatican Secretary of State or his Bishop or the Pope then I would like to know the evidence for that as well. So far, all I have ever been offered by those who disagree with Fr Gruner are “hearsay”, obvious misrepresentation of Fr Gruner’s opinions, and ad hominem attacks. But like I’ve said, if the charges against Fr Gruner are true then I would certainly no longer defend him - though his opinions on the Consecration of Russia and The Third Secret are separate matters to be analyzed which I think sincere Catholics can indeed disagree about.

Keep the Faith
jmt

 

[Catherine_Grant]

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[John_Taylor]

I don’t know. I guess I’m just not the “let me lay down and make out like a rug so you can walk all over me” type of Catholic you seem to want to champion.

My apologies to Victorius. My downfall is pride. Please forgive me.

Keep the Faith
jmt

 

[John_Taylor]

Greetings. Is anyone familiar with the Third Secret of Fatima? If so, can anyone tell me, Catholics only please, what you all think about it? Thanks.

We have from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith the text The Message of Fatima…

see vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

…which revealed for the first time Sr Lucia’s account of the vision our Lady gave to her and her cousins (Blessed Jacinta and Francisco) relating to the Third Secret (for background information see The Story of Fatima at fatima.org/essentials/facts/story1.asp).

Thistle quoted the text of the vision here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1755859&postcount=2

Within that text Sr Lucia refers to “the two parts which I have already explained”. The first part she’s referring to is “the vision of hell” and the second part refers to the establishment of “Devotion to Mary’s Immaculate Heart” and the “Consecration of Russia”. For more information about these two parts of the secret see: fatima.org/essentials/message/tspart1.asp and fatima.org/essentials/message/tspart2.asp.

According to the Vatican text, Pope John Paul II sent Archbishop Bertone, accompanied by Bishop Serafim, to ask Sr Lucia “certain questions about the interpretation of ‘the third part of the secret’”.

On April 27, 2000, the meeting took place and Sr Lucia agreed with the interpretation that the third part of the secret was “a prophetic vision, similar to those in sacred history” (as proposed by Cardinal Sodano). In particular, she understood the vision to relate to “the struggle of atheistic Communism against the Church and against Christians, and describes the terrible sufferings of the victims of the faith in the twentieth century.” (again, as proposed by Cardinal Sodano)

The principal figure in the vision (The Bishop dressed in White) she understood to be “the Pope” but she didn’t know which Pope or his name.

The Vatican text goes on to say that Sr Lucia was in full agreement with Pope John Paul II’s claim that it was Mary who guided the bullets’ path (during Mehmet Ali Agca’s assassination attempt against JPII on May 13, 1981) and who saved his life such that “in his throes the Pope halted at the threshold of death” but the Vatican text (where the meeting between Archbishop Bertone, Bishop Serafim and Sr Lucia is related) does not say whether or not Sr Lucia was in agreement with the idea that the vision of “the bishop dressed in white” refers only or mainly to the attempt on JPII’s life.

So, while the vision states that “the Bishop dressed in white” was killed “by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him” the Vatican text records Cardinal Sodano’s interpretation that the 1981 assassination attempt upon JPII’s life is what the vision relates - but this too is within the wider context of “the immense suffering endured by the witnesses of the faith in the last century of the second millennium” at the hands of atheistic systems of governments so the question may be asked does the “killing of the bishop in white” include the non-fatal shooting of JPII while on another level pointing to still future events?

Lord willing and if I may, I’d like to post next some statements made about the Third Secret by JPII and Cardinal Ratzinger before the publishing of the vision and offer some ideas on how the Third Secret may help us in living a good Catholic life.

Keep the Faith
jmt

 

[John_Taylor]

On the sixty-fifth anniversary of Our Lady’s first apparition at Fatima Pope John Paul II asked the question: “Can the Mother who with all the force of the love that she fosters in the Holy Spirit and desires everyone’s salvation keep silence on what undermines the very basis of their salvation?" to which he answered: “No, She cannot remain silent.”

See Homily at Mass in Fatima May 13, 1982 at ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP820513.HTM

But what is the “very basis” of our salvation? and where in the Fatima messages has Our Blessed Mother spoken to us about it being undermined?

From the Athanasian Creed we know that the basis of our salvation is the Catholic Faith:

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; 2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

The Council of Trent affirms that saving faith is a dogmatic faith - thus correcting Martin Luther’s concept of saving faith as being a fudicial faith (trusting faith) only.

At Fatima Our Lady (according to Sr Lucia) prefaced the vision of the Third Secret with the words, “In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved,” (after which Sr Lucia wrote “ect” to indicate that our Blessed Mother’s words continued in this vein) and so it follows that the Third Secret relates to the loss of dogmatic faith - the loss of Catholic Faith (in countries other than Portugal).

The following links develope this train of thought…I hope they may of be of help:

Part 1: fatimacrusader.com/cr67/cr67pg03.asp
Part 2: fatimacrusader.com/cr68/cr68pg03.asp
Part 3: fatimacrusader.com/cr69/cr69pg52.asp

Keep the Faith
jmt

 

[latinmasslover]

So you’re saying, then, that both JP2 and Benedict XVI, not to mention untold numbers of priests, cardinals, and other lay people, have lied about the third secret, to hide some nefarious scheme (else why lie?)

And *only * Fr. Gruner, and those who trust in him, know the ‘real truth’ because all the ‘authorities’ are somehow deluded at best, corrupted at worst?

Sounds like a conspiracy theory. . .

Multiple apparitions that are going on today, that are approved, say that there is extreme corrution in the upper hierarchy. Nobody’s making Fr. Gruner out to be a pope, but he brings up valid points. Why have things in the world gotten worse (Russia especially) if Russia has been consecrated. If this is the reign of the Immaculate Heart…

 

[latinmasslover]

Right on! Infact Fr.Gruner not only called Sr. Lucia a liar but also JP II and B16.

Since when did the Church teach that the Pope can never sin?

 

[Sure]

To those defending Fr. Gruner:

It should be noted that he is suspended a divinis. He appealed the suspension and it was decided by the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostalic Signature (the highest court of the Church) that he indeed actually suspended:

“The Congregation for the Clergy, upon the mandate from a higher authority, wishes to state that Rev. Nicholas Gruner is under an ‘a divinis’ suspension, which has been confirmed by a definitive sentence of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signature.”

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CCLGRNER.HTM

 

[latinmasslover]

Does anybody have a quote from the Pope himself regarding Fr. Gruner and the Apostolate? Either JPII or Bendedict?

 

[roo]

I haven’t read all the replys, but I would like to share a book that answers the question…

The book is John Paul II
A Life of Grace

By Renzo Allegri

I bought this at a Christian/Catholic bookstore and it describes his life and the 3 secrets of Fatima. It claims that Pope John Paul II is the 3rd secret. Actually, the attempted assassination is the 3rd secret and what he brought to the world.

It is a great read and brings a new love to this man and the faith of all of those around him.

Hope this helps,

Roo

 

[Like]

Since when did the Church teach that the Pope can never sin?

Please correct me if I’m reading your question wrong, for it appears to me that you are accusing not 1 but, 2 popes of lying.

You might like to check out some sites below…
Quote:
(Mehmet Ali Agca, a Turkish gunman, shot the pope as John Paul drove through a crowd in St. Peter’s Square in 1981 on the anniversary of the 1917 apparition. Among the explanations the gunman gave prosecutors at a trial in 1985 was that his attempt was “connected to the third secret of the Madonna of Fatima.”) Quoted from.
crystalinks.com/fatima.html

Quote: “Our Lady of Fatima spoke of the conversion of Russia to God, she didn’t say that it had to be exclusively Catholic”. and.
“Mary is just as present in the Orthodox Church as she is in the Catholic Church and, I would say, much more in Russia. Her image is a figure that is always pure for every Catholic and Orthodox for whom, without a doubt, her apparitions have ecumenical significance.” and…
According to Julio Loredo, the coordinator of the Apostles of Fatima for the Light Over the East organization, the faith in Russia is vibrant.
In Russia, “I saw a faith that was much stronger that that of many people in the West because it is watered in blood,” he told ZENIT.
“Blood is strong, it hurts, but what is bathed in blood will grow. In Russia, I see the fruit of the blood of martyrs which was shed for many years, and the faith seems strong and very enthusiastic,” he added. Quoted from: zenit.org/article-19733?l=english

I hope this helps!

 

[latinmasslover]

Please correct me if I’m reading your question wrong, for it appears to me that you are accusing not 1 but, 2 popes of lying.

Sorry it was not my intent to say that the Popes are lying, but I do believe that the *whole *Secret hasn’t been revealed (as Pope Benedict, when Cardinal, said) in order to avoid a panic. The Secret also refers to the Pope being killed, which didn’t happen in '81 when JPII was shot. Pope Benedict (again, when a Cardinal) said that the Third Secret ties in very closely with the visions at Akita (approved), and at Akita the Blessed Mother warns that there is a lot of corruption in the top, a lot of deception and we all have to be on guard. “Her” priests will be persecuted; I don’t agree with everything JPII did, or didn’t do, but I firmly believe that he was making the best of a horrid situation, and only God knows if it could’ve been handled better.

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

"…but the real shocker - at least to a certain faction of Fatima devotees - is that Sister Lucia said that Pope John Paul II forestalled a nuclear war when he consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1984.

Yes strange indeed, and what happened after, ? the dissolving of the Union of Soviet of Socialists Republics.

 

[bear06]

(jmt) For what has Fr Gruner been suspended for? do you know the circumstances of his alledged “disobedience”?

Here’s the whole canonical scoop on Fr. Gruner. He is suspended and rightfully so.

theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/ngruner/wanderer.html

Now Fr. Gruner claims that he has committed no crime or transgression, despite the fact that the Church says differently. Fr. Gruner also claims that anyone who appears to contradict him is either ignorant of the facts, misled or outright malicious. Given the fact that Fr. Gruner’s suspension was upheld by a sentence of the Apostolic Signatura, this is simply amazing. Since all sentences rendered by a competent Church tribunal contain a section clearly laying out the facts, Fr. Gruner should perhaps either read or re-read the facts section of the Signatura’s sentence before putting forwards such claims.

As for the cannons cited by Fr. Gruner, cannon 1321 basically provides that no one can be punished unless he has actually committed some offence with malice or culpability. To refresh our memories, Fr. Gruner was ordered by his legitimate ecclesiastical superior to return to the diocese of his incardination. Keep in mind that he made a solemn promise or vow to serve this diocese when he was ordained. He was also warned that failure to return to his diocese of incardination would result in his suspension a divinis.

He did not undertake the action required of him, and subsequently his competent ecclesiastical superior followed through with the threatened suspension. Additionally, paragraph three of this same cannon states: ‘Where there has been an external violation, imputability is presumed, unless it appears otherwise.’ Some argue that Fr. Gruner’s imputability appears otherwise; however, it obviously did not appear to be such in the judgement of the apostolic Signatura. As Catholics, we should charitably assume that the Signatura knew all the facts when adjudicating Fr. Gruner’s case, and that these facts are aptly summarized in the Signatura’s judicial sentence.

Additionally, Fr. Gruner mentions canon 1323. This canon lists a number of exempting causes from canonical penalties. In the experience of the present authors, one of the exempting causes that Fr. Gruner’s supporters have cited in the past is one concerning ‘reason of necessity or grave inconvenience’. Nevertheless, this canon also specifies that neither applies if ‘the act is intrinsically evil or tends to be harmful to souls’. Given that Christ instituted the Church as a hierarchy, is not disobedience to the lawful command of one’s ecclesiastical superior harmful to souls?

Or is Fr. Gruner somehow exempt from the vow or promise of obedience he took at ordination? In essence, Fr. Gruner’s disobedience to legitimate Church authorities seems rather jarring when one considers the example of those who played a key role in the Fátima apparitions. From Holy Scripture, we know that the Blessed Virgin said ‘fiat’ when she was approached by the Archangel Gabriel and was asked to bear God the Son in her most blessed womb. As for Sister Lucia, the last living seer to receive Our Lady’s message at Fátima, she has lived her life as a holy example of faithful submission and obedience to legitimate Church authority.

As an aside, perhaps the lidless eyes among some of Fr. Gruner’s followers could explain how the obedience shown by Sister Lucia toward her hierarchal superiors in any way differs from that which these same folk denigrate as ‘neo-catholic’?

Thirdly, Fr. Gruner refers to canon 221. In the past, some of his defenders have referred to paragraph three of this canon, which states: ‘Christ’s faithful have the right that no canonical penalties be inflicted on them except in accordance with the law.’ Yet Pope John Paul II has trusted the Apostolic Signatura, and not Fr. Gruner and his supporters, with the competency to adjudicate this matter on behalf of the Church. Therefore, the penalty inflicted on Fr. Gruner has been upheld in complete accordance with both the letter and the spirit of canon 221.

 

[bear06]

And a few more items on Fr. Gruner:
sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id13.html
sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id26.html - Wanderer Article
fatimafamily.org/news/gruner.html - from the Apostolic
Nuncio

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

And a few more items on Fr. Gruner:
sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id13.html
sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id26.html - Wanderer Article
fatimafamily.org/news/gruner.html - from the Apostolic
Nuncio

More people condemning the saintly Father Gruner. Someone in this thread said he called Sister Lucy a liar. He did no such thing. All he did was question a letter she supposedly wrote which contradicts what she had said numerous times in the past. The letter was even typed, even though Cardinal Bertone said she never used a type writer or computer.

Mabe those here are aware of this and maybe they aren’t, but there is a big stir in Rome at this time over a new book written by a very popular Italian author, Antonio Socci, called “the forth secret of Fatima”.

Antonio Socci entered into a debate with another well known Italian author over whether or not the entire 3rd secret had been revealed. As the debate went on, Socci realized that there was a lot more to the story than he had been told. He then began to research it, and to contact high level Vatican officials. In the end, he becam convinced that the entire 3rd secret had not been revealed. In fact, Pope John XXIII’s secretary, who is still living, admitted that there were two parts of the third secret and that only one part had been revealed.

What Socci now believes is that just as there was a vision and accompanying explanation (two parts) of the first two secrets, so too there is a vision and accompanying explanation for the third secret. The vision was released, but not the accompanying “words of our Lady”, which begin thus: “in Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be perserved…”. What follows is the explanation of the vision that our Lady gave to the children. This has not been released.

This has caused a big stir in Rome, and has a lot of people talking. The following is an article that gives some of the details.

cfnews.org/Socci-FourthSecret.htm

 

[bear06]

The letter was even typed, even though Cardinal Bertone said she never used a type writer or computer.

What is your source for this Cardinal Bertone quote? What is the actual quote?

 

[Linda_Marie]

I have been told that if you want to know what was in the Third Secret of Fatima, all you need do is look at the messages received at La Salette and other approved sites of Marian Apparitions, like Akita. The message is pretty much the same - repent, make reparation, pray, because the world is sinful and it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Catholic Apparitions of Mary at La Salette
apparitions.org/lasalette.html

Our Lady of Akita
theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Akita.htm#Messages

newjerusalem.com/akita1.htm

JUNE, 1988

– Vatican City – Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgment on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

What is your source for this Cardinal Bertone quote? What is the actual quote?

Bertone has been doing damage control in Rome over the book I mentioned above, “The Forth Secret of Fatima”. I am pretty sure the quote I mentioned came from a recent TV inteview he took part in in response to that book. I can locate the quote if you need me to. Bertone has been having a semi-debate with the author of that book, even though Cardinal Bertone refused to address the point the author made. He just keeps attacking the person of the author, in the hopes of discrediting him, while he ignore his valid points (kind of like what has happened with Fr. Guner).

If you go to www.fatima.org, you will be able to read “Bertone vs. Socci” located near the top of the page. I am pretty sure that the reference for the quote I mentioned will appear in one of the four articles on this subject.