Is anyone morally culpable because of Osama's death?

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They could have taken him alive if they had wanted to. There are a number of ways to do that.

They released information that makes it sound like he was killed in self defense in a firefight. Trying to make it sound like he wasn’t executed.

I’m not buying it.
 
I answer that, In order for a war to be just, three things are necessary.First, the authority of the sovereign by whose command the war is to be waged**. For it is not the business of a private individual to declare war, because he can seek for redress of his rights from the tribunal of his superior. Moreover it is not the business of a private individual to summon together the people, which has to be done in wartime**.
- Summa II-II-40-1

The two pertinent questions are:


  1. *]Can an NGO be in a state of war with a State?
    *]Can a State be in a state of war with an NGO, when executing that state of war would require the violation of other States’ sovereignty?

  1. I am still only concerned with point #1 …

    Yes, you need just authority to declare war, but the theory looks at the justness of war from one side only. That is, if our society declares war, for it to be just, the just authority is Congress (govt.).

    I don’t think the theory says that for your cause to be just the people attacking you (the “agressor” in the theory) must be a government.

    I think the theory would say that Al Queda, not being a govenment, elected by no-one, is acting in-justly in waging war against us. But, I think in terms of the theory, it is possible for one side’s cause to be just and the other’s un-just.
 
I am still only concerned with point #1 …

Yes, you need just authority to declare war, but the theory looks at the justness of war from one side only. That is, if our society declares war, for it to be just, the just authority is Congress (govt.).

I don’t think the theory says that for your cause to be just the people attacking you (the “agressor” in the theory) must be a government.

I think the theory would say that Al Queda, not being a govenment, elected by no-one, is acting in-justly in waging war against us. But, I think in terms of the theory, it is possible for one side’s cause to be just and the other’s un-just.
Think about this for a second and remember, the just war theory applies to all sides, not just to the USA.

It is physically not possible for our military forces to take an action in a sovereign State without encroaching upon that State’s authority (borders, cyber networks, people, etc.)

If we perform some offensive military action in a State without that State’s permission, have we not violated the sovereignty of that State?

Furthermore, is it possible for an NGO to operate in a State without the government’s permission (at least tacit permission)? Granted, a sovereign State may not know about an NGO’s operations within its borders, but does it not have responsibility one way or the other for what goes on within those borders?

The point being that the rules of war get really funny when you start talking about groups operating within a State without the consent of the government of that State. You have issues of sovereignty to deal with; you also have issues of accountability to deal with. And International Law is not designed right now to deal with those issues.
 
Think about this for a second and remember, the just war theory applies to all sides, not just to the USA
The theory lays out the rules for one side declaring war in a just manner… it does not require or expect that that all sides in a war conduct themselves justly. It is in fact impossible for both sides to be justified in a just war, since somebody has to be the “agressor”, in the language of the theory.

I read your point one as an argument that for a war to be just, a government can only be at war with another government. I think, for example, a government could wage a just war under the theory against a group of pirates that attacked shipping in international waters. The pirates are an organization, they are not a government, and if the other requirements of the theory are met (last resort, chance of success, agressor is inflicting grave damage, etc.) then sending the navy after the pirates seems just.

The second part of your question, about an attack taking place in another state, with which we are not at war is a different question, which I have not considered yet.
 
If it was a “kill mission” as stated above, then why would they offer surrender to Bin Laden?

It makes no sense.
 
Is it actually a sin to have ordered his execution as the President did? Was it a sin to carry it out, as the seals did? Basically, is anyone going to hell because of this?
Really?! are you serious?! :mad: Yes! Osama is feeling quite toasty now I imagine! God bless MY COMMANDER IN CHIEF, AND THE SEAL TEAM, that risked their lives to kill a truly evil individual.
 
They could have taken him alive if they had wanted to. There are a number of ways to do that.

They released information that makes it sound like he was killed in self defense in a firefight. Trying to make it sound like he wasn’t executed.

I’m not buying it.
The nebulous “they” also said that OBL put a woman, or she put herself, between him and the SEALS. “They”, in this case a spokeksman for the State Department, said that he was asked to surrender and he refused. Guess it just depends on who you believe.
 
They could have taken him alive if they had wanted to. There are a number of ways to do that.

They released information that makes it sound like he was killed in self defense in a firefight. Trying to make it sound like he wasn’t executed.

I’m not buying it.
Go into a military compound that houses a fairly large number of armed soldiers, with a team of apx 6 men. And lets see how you do. Ever cleared a building? I have. Things happen really really fast. Tell me, what would you propose? Im listening. Id be very interested to know. Seriously. :confused:
 
Go into a military compound that houses a fairly large number of armed soldiers, with a team of apx 6 men. And lets see how you do. Ever cleared a building? I have. Things happen really really fast. Tell me, what would you propose? Im listening. Id be very interested to know. Seriously. :confused:
Indeed. Most commonly referred to as the fog of war I think. It seems that the storyline of it being a strictly kill operation is being pushed back by the WH. Albeit in a very wink, wink, nudge, nudge sort of way. Brennan said that they would have captured him if it was possible. Although, my reaction would be that it would be highly unlikely. The myth of OBL could only be sustained if he was killed in battle. The true life facts of his life would have been devastating to the movement. That he used a woman to shield himself is more accurate about his character than the mythology that has grown up about him. It’s also a very very bad image for Muslims. So, even if it were not true that he used a woman, it’s a brilliant thing for the WH to say it.
 
Go into a military compound that houses a fairly large number of armed soldiers, with a team of apx 6 men. And lets see how you do. Ever cleared a building? I have. Things happen really really fast. Tell me, what would you propose? Im listening. Id be very interested to know. Seriously. :confused:
One question I have for PaulinVA:

How do you take a guy with an AK-47 alive if he’s not willing?

My brother spent the better part of 2 years (20-22 years old) chasing this murderer in the mountains of Afghanistan. He has said more than once that these guys don’t generally give up even when given the option to surrender. You cannot play “nice guy” with these guys, they will kill you the second they get a chance without a thought.

What are they supposed to do say, “Oh…unmm…I’m sorry Mr. Bin Laden, we’re going to need your weapon. So…if you’d kindly pass it over here…” .

Perhaps you could get than in, between OBL changing clips on his AK?

Seriously:
They could have taken him alive if they had wanted to. There are a number of ways to do that.
:confused:

What? Pepper spray? Taser? Tear gas? Give me a break.

How many more lives would you be comfortable sacrificing to capture him alive?

My brother came back with PTSD at the age of 22 , fighting and chasing these people in the mountains for two years. He lived in the mountains for nearly two full years. These guys don’t just lay their weapons down and give up. Most of the time if you capature them alive it was because you caught them asleep, literally.
 
but there is a commandment saying thou shall not kill…
Which does not refer to war. In fact the law of moses give a very detailed list of the rules of war for the Jewish people. including how to treat Captive women. Very ahead of its time, when rape, and slavery were the norm for a captive people. Read the whole law of moses plz.
 
They could have taken him alive if they had wanted to. There are a number of ways to do that.

They released information that makes it sound like he was killed in self defense in a firefight. Trying to make it sound like he wasn’t executed.

I’m not buying it.
Could you name a few of the methods that could have been used to take Bin Laden alive? Thanks.
 
One question I have for PaulinVA:

How do you take a guy with an AK-47 alive if he’s not willing?

My brother spent the better part of 2 years (20-22 years old) chasing this murderer in the mountains of Afghanistan. He has said more than once that these guys don’t generally give up even when given the option to surrender. You cannot play “nice guy” with these guys, they will kill you the second they get a chance without a thought.

What are they supposed to do say, “Oh…unmm…I’m sorry Mr. Bin Laden, we’re going to need your weapon. So…if you’d kindly pass it over here…” .

Perhaps you could get than in, between OBL changing clips on his AK?

Seriously:
:confused:

What? Pepper spray? Taser? Tear gas? Give me a break.

How many more lives would you be comfortable sacrificing to capture him alive?

My brother came back with PTSD at the age of 22 , fighting and chasing these people in the mountains for two years. He lived in the mountains for nearly two full years. These guys don’t just lay their weapons down and give up. Most of the time if you capature them alive it was because you caught them asleep, literally.
My prayers for your brother. 😦 God bless him and keep him and give him comfort. And Thank him for his service for me. Could you?
 
Really?! are you serious?! :mad: Yes! Osama is feeling quite toasty now I imagine! God bless MY COMMANDER IN CHIEF, AND THE SEAL TEAM, that risked their lives to kill a truly evil individual.
Code:
Be very careful in assigning him to hell…even the church does not do that! Clarity is lacking here…
 
Really? how many 10000nds of folks murdured by this man? Clarity is lacking? 🤷
I think she is just saying that we shouldn’t assume, though the case seems pretty solid from our earthly point of view. 🙂
 
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