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DeusExMachina
Guest
That’s my personal opinion, as the bible makes very clear these 2 doctrines are at the heart of our faith. But I want your thoughts on the matter.
Is anyone who denies the trinity and/or christ's divinity inherently not Christian?
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
The Trinity? In the Bible? I believe that came afterwards. As did sorting out the exact nature of Jesus. But many denominations use the belief of the Trinity as a benchmark of who is Christian and who is not. Believing Jesus was divine is pretty much a given, don’t you think?
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Depends on what you mean by “Christian.”
Someone can be in the state of grace, and therefore part of the Body of Christ, and yet not have correct beliefs.
However, someone who does not hold to Christ’s divinity or the Trinity are not professing foundational beliefs of Christianity. So while they may follow Christ in some way, they are obviously not adhering to established, nearly universal beliefs in the Christian community.
Someone can be in the state of grace, and therefore part of the Body of Christ, and yet not have correct beliefs.
However, someone who does not hold to Christ’s divinity or the Trinity are not professing foundational beliefs of Christianity. So while they may follow Christ in some way, they are obviously not adhering to established, nearly universal beliefs in the Christian community.
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ctb95
Guest
I view the term “Christian” very broadly as anyone who is a follower of Christ. However, not everyone is necessarily an orthodox Christian (i.e. Catholic).
There were many early Christian communities who denied the humanity or divinity of Christ or denied the trinity (such as the Gnostics). Many Christian communities today deny important orthodox Christian teachings like the Eucharist, but we still label them as “Christian.”
There were many early Christian communities who denied the humanity or divinity of Christ or denied the trinity (such as the Gnostics). Many Christian communities today deny important orthodox Christian teachings like the Eucharist, but we still label them as “Christian.”
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DeusExMachina
Guest
“Go for and make disciples of all nations, Baptising them in the name of the father,son, and Holy Spirit.”
Matt. 28:19-20
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. "
John 5:7-8
“I and my father are one”
John 10:30
"Then God said,“Let us make man in our image…”
Genesis 1:26
“No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also”
John 2:23
“But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.”
Mark 3:29
Seems pretty clear to me. The father,son, and Holy Ghost are one(all God), and blasphemy( which is by definition against God) against any of them is a mortal sin.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
If you lived in the first four or five centuries of the early church, it wouldn’t be so clear. The powers that be fought and debated over the nature of the Trinity. I don’t think that even Nicea had it all sorted out; perhaps by the fifth century, the debates quieted down and we are left with a nice, neat mystery.
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eddie_too
Guest
the Trinity (not the word) was taught to the apostles directly by Jesus. were the apostles able to formulate in writing the dogma that the christians ultimately developed to explain it and to protect it from falsification? obviously not, but did Jesus fully understand it and give it to His apostles in the manner in which they could best remember and preach it? yes.
the Church did not create the doctrine of the Trinity. it came directly from Jesus. from where else could it have come? only Jesus came down from heaven. only Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
in my opinion, the New Testament makes it clear that Jesus taught there are Three Persons in a Single Divine Being.
the more time that passed between the deaths of the apostles the more subject to error became some who professed to follow Jesus. that is the reason the magisterium met in the various councils. it was because the magisterium had the truth and wished to protect it from error. they had the truth through apostolic succession and the apostles received it directly from Jesus.
the Church did not create the doctrine of the Trinity. it came directly from Jesus. from where else could it have come? only Jesus came down from heaven. only Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
in my opinion, the New Testament makes it clear that Jesus taught there are Three Persons in a Single Divine Being.
the more time that passed between the deaths of the apostles the more subject to error became some who professed to follow Jesus. that is the reason the magisterium met in the various councils. it was because the magisterium had the truth and wished to protect it from error. they had the truth through apostolic succession and the apostles received it directly from Jesus.
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eddie_too
Guest
as to the original question, anyone who denies the trinity and or Christ’s divinity are following a pale image of the real Jesus. but, they nonetheless are, in some sense, following Christ.
it seems that the correct answer is that it all depends upon who is defining the word christian.
for myself, i tend to remember Jesus’ response to the apostles when they informed Him that men, not a member of their group, were going around healing and casting out demons in the name of Jesus.
if they are for us, they cannot be against us (paraphrase from memory).
it seems that the correct answer is that it all depends upon who is defining the word christian.
for myself, i tend to remember Jesus’ response to the apostles when they informed Him that men, not a member of their group, were going around healing and casting out demons in the name of Jesus.
if they are for us, they cannot be against us (paraphrase from memory).
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jeffrey_erwin
Guest
**I have a Jehovah’s Witness friend who stops by every once in a while. I asked him once if any JW would ever have anything to do with a nuclear weapon.
He emphatically said that such would never be the case.
My personal view is that nuclear weapons are, by far, the most evil invention on the planet,
and that these will be the cause of the coming disaster spelled out in Isaiah 66:15-16 and in Jeremiah 25: 31-33
Therefore I think that the JWs are better Christians than the rest of us because they will not build or deploy these evil creations. **
He emphatically said that such would never be the case.
My personal view is that nuclear weapons are, by far, the most evil invention on the planet,
and that these will be the cause of the coming disaster spelled out in Isaiah 66:15-16 and in Jeremiah 25: 31-33
Therefore I think that the JWs are better Christians than the rest of us because they will not build or deploy these evil creations. **
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DeusExMachina
Guest
I hope you know the catholic church is also firmly anti-nuclear
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jeffrey_erwin
Guest
**Our Catholic Church has protocols that prohibit any of its members from participating in, paying for, or facilitating a pregnancy termination.
But almost no Christian churches have similar protocols against the building or deployment of nuclear weapons.
If you are a Catholic or an Episcopalian, you are free to seek and accept employment on an SSBN or at an ICBM complex.
I would very much like to see abortion type protocols instituted by all Christian churches in regards to nuclear weapons. I’ve written to the Vatican to ask for this but haven’t received a reply.
And my own Episcopal church is just as deficient. **
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DeusExMachina
Guest
So is our church my friend
The 76th General Convention [of the Episcopal Church] calls upon US policy makers to determine a timely process for the dismantling of existing U.S. nuclear weapons while urging other countries to do likewise; and be it further resolved, that this Church urge the President and Congress to explore a moratorium on production of new nuclear arms."
The 76th General Convention [of the Episcopal Church] calls upon US policy makers to determine a timely process for the dismantling of existing U.S. nuclear weapons while urging other countries to do likewise; and be it further resolved, that this Church urge the President and Congress to explore a moratorium on production of new nuclear arms."
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DeusExMachina
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Padres1969
Guest
Good find. I hadn’t seen that particular resolution.
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Padres1969
Guest
I agree. That the Trinity is a key belief of Christianity. That without it, the faith really can’t be called Christian, or orthodox Christian if you so prefer. Even most Christian groups that don’t profess the creeds, and the trinitarian idea held within, profess the trinitarian God such as Baptists and their baptize their members using that same trinitarian form and understanding that the creedal Christians do.
Now that’s not to say you can’t from an academic POV call those that don’t hold the Trinity Christian. Indeed many academic sources consider any faith that is based on Jesus of Nazareth’s teaching to be a Christian regardless of their specific views on his divinity. Religions such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Oneness Pentecostals often get folded into Christianity in this more simplistic view despite outright rejection of the Trinity/Trinitarian formula or a completely different understanding of it.
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jeffrey_erwin
Guest
**Thanks for the article.
Two things: the article does not change the fact that any Catholic is permitted to be employed at building or deploying a nuclear weapon despite the fact that the Church is willing to ban its members from certain lines of work
The other observation is that Sr. Mary Ann McGivern issued a call for unilateral nuclear disarmament for the USA.
I started a thread on that very subject, but got absolutely no agreement from either the Catholics or anyone else here.
After a few days the forum moderator removed my thread.
I think that my original point is still valid. Members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses church (which does not accept the idea of a “Trinity”) are way ahead of the rest of us when it comes to Christian practice in regards to nuclear weapons.**
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jeffrey_erwin
Guest
Thanks for the info. That sounds like a request for unilateral nuclear disarmament. I’ll have to take this up with my Priest.
I did not, however, notice any injunction that would prohibit any member of our Episcopal church from enabling a nuclear weapon.
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jane_doe
Guest
Some facts are pretty plain in the Bible: Christ being the Son of God, the Father and His Love, the witnessing power of the Spirit. If a person does not believe in these three, I’d be skeptical to how they could call themselves a Christian.
What is not laid out plainly in the Bible is nature, substance, relationship, interconnectedness of the Father, Son, and Spirit. There have been / are many interpretations of this throughout the years, just one of which is the Nicene creed. I do not tell someone “you are not a Christian” based on extra-biblical lines. Hence my answer to the poll was “no”.
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alwayswill
Guest
We all agree that the word Trinity used to describe a complicate concept came later
However, using Scripture alone ; Can you show that
God is one ( there is one God)
The Father is fully God
The Son is fully God
The Holy Spirit is fully God
The Father is distinct from the Son and the HS
The Son is distinct from the Father and the HS
The HS is distinct from the Father and the Son ?
I can
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alwayswill
Guest
Denying either result in a cascade of heresies.
Heresy always begins with a misunderstanding of the nature of God.
Error begets error,
and heresy begets heresy.
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