Is Aquinas' First Way Falsifiable? (jd!)

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Over on this thread, JDaniel and I got to batting back and forth question of whether Aquinas’ Five Ways (any of them) could rise above my criticism:

Aquinas: Not even wrong.

jd doesn’t want to hijack that thread, which I think is a noble impulse, so here, if jd or anyone else is game to take it up, is a space where I stand to be corrected in saying that Aquinas’ First Way is not falsifiable, even in principle, and thus does not rise above “not even wrong”.

It is possible, even in principle, to falsify the argument in Aquinas’ First Way?

If so, how would that be done? I can’t think of a way that could be achieved.

But maybe I missed something.

jd? Anyone?

-TS
 
It seems to me that you would have to demonstrate why a proposition must be falsifiable in order for it not to be meaningless for your objection to have any weight.

I can think of propositions which are not falsifiable because they rest on first principles. I cannot prove that proofs which use first principles are valid, for instance. First principles cannot be shown to be false, for “showing a thing to be false” requires first principles. That doesn’t make first principles or proof meaningless though.

Also, is the proposition “a proposition must be able to be falsified or else it is meaningless” itself able to be falsified? If it could be, that would destroy the proposition to begin with. If it couldn’t be, then the objection refutes itself.

You are begging the question here as much as anybody else.
 
It seems to me that you would have to demonstrate why a proposition must be falsifiable in order for it not to be meaningless for your objection to have any weight.

I can think of propositions which are not falsifiable because they rest on first principles. I cannot prove that proofs which use first principles are valid, for instance. First principles cannot be shown to be false, for “showing a thing to be false” requires first principles. That doesn’t make first principles or proof meaningless though.

Also, is the proposition “a proposition must be able to be falsified or else it is meaningless” itself able to be falsified? If it could be, that would destroy the proposition to begin with. If it couldn’t be, then the objection refutes itself.

You are begging the question here as much as anybody else.
Understanding what your saying here, but putting it on hold for just a moment to ask - per the OP: do you understand the First Way to be falsifiable?

Maybe it’s not important, it’s question begging, etc. But first, where do you come down on the question posed?

-TS
 
Understanding what your saying here, but putting it on hold for just a moment to ask - per the OP: do you understand the First Way to be falsifiable?

Maybe it’s not important, it’s question begging, etc. But first, where do you come down on the question posed?

-TS
I think your question is too broad, as it stands, to garner an insightful exploration.

Do you mean to ask if Aquinas’ observation in the first way is a priori? Or do you mean to ask if he is making a deductive claim in the first way which is unfalsifiable? Or are you saying he is making an inductive observation?

I would need you to explain more precisely what you thought Aquinas was saying – and how you thought he was saying it – to give my answer.
 
Touchstone: put me down as ‘simple’, but all this distinction simply ends with a question: are you willing to remain an “Atheist”? After severely doubting that even one of Aquinas’ Five Ways may be unfalsifiable, it seems that God confronts you face-to-face. Why not try to look at whether the argument points to a truth, rather than make sophistries about falsifiability? Argument and debate are for the sake of finding what is true a priori, not what you or I find objectionable, can see, or experience. The fact that we are so focused on first principles means there must be first principles; else, we would not be so obsessed with defining them.

God is the first principle: alpha and omega. You can only “always distinguish, seldom affirm, never deny” with regards to other things… not God’s reality. 🙂
 
I think your question is too broad, as it stands, to garner an insightful exploration.

Do you mean to ask if Aquinas’ observation in the first way is a priori? Or do you mean to ask if he is making a deductive claim in the first way which is unfalsifiable? Or are you saying he is making an inductive observation?
Not asking about any of those things at this juncture. I am asking you (or anyone) how the argument would be determined to be false in your view. Or, how would the future have to develop such that you would conclude that Aquinas’ First Way had been rendered false?

That’s all. It’s not dependent on Aquinas’, but rather what your criterion is for the potential discrediting of Aquinas’ argument (or jd’s, or…).
I would need you to explain more precisely what you thought Aquinas was saying – and how you thought he was saying it – to give my answer.
That isn’t relevant to my question. I’m asking on your own terms, as you understand Aquinas (or as jd understands him), what potential outcomes you can conceive of that would have you classifying Aquinas’ First Way argument as falsified?

That isn’t dependent on what I think at all. If you’re going to ask me what my view is further (and that’s fine for other parts of the discussion!), you’re veering off my question, which has nothing to do with my assessment of Aquinas’ but only with yours.

What would the world like look such that you would say the First Way has been falsified?

-TS
 
Touchstone: put me down as ‘simple’, but all this distinction simply ends with a question: are you willing to remain an “Atheist”? After severely doubting that even one of Aquinas’ Five Ways may be unfalsifiable, it seems that God confronts you face-to-face.
I think that’s just some confusion between us regarding what is implicated by “non-falsifiable”. Being non-falsifiable is a bad thing, epistemically, a weakness in terms of knowledge, not a strength.

For example, and by way of contrast, if we consider Darwin’s argument about evolution something like this:
  1. Man is a late and complex development of the process of evolution.
  2. Evolution begins with more rudimentary and basic forms and develops toward diverse and variegated adaptations.
  3. Therefore, we should find more basic and rudimentary forms at lower (earlier) levels of the geological strata.
Now, that is a prediction, and argument that if X is true, then Y should be the case. And it’s eminently falsifiable. If we were to discover, per JBS Haldane, “rabbit [skeletons] in the Precambrian”, then Darwin’s argument would be falsified. And Darwin knew and said as much.

That’s the kicker. Darwin’s dangerous idea is dangerous and epistemically weighty because it is falsifiable. It is liable to being shown to be wrong. If it has remained vulnerable to falsification for going on two hundred years now, and hasn’t actually been discredited, then we have grounds for understanding that to be the basis for knowledge, or “true”.

Aquinas’ claims aren’t like that at all, structurally. They are invulnerable to the real world, and do not risk anything as a proposition. They are trivial in that sense, in the same way a definition of a word is trivial, true as a matter of terminology, but not being liable to anything in extramental world.
Why not try to look at whether the argument points to a truth, rather than make sophistries about falsifiability?
There’s nothing sophistical about that criticism. It’s a basic and straightforward criterion for epistemological grounding. On what grounds is a a proposition “true” if its not liable, even principle, to being false? The sleight of hand obtains in confusing a trivial truth, a tautology, or an a piori intuition with propositions that really do go out and “battle for the truth” and succeed or fail in the real world, as Darwin’s do, and Aquinas’ (as I see it) don’t and can’t. That’s the deceptive element in this, as I see it, accepting Aquinas’ argument as ‘true’ in any meaningful way, when ‘true’ or ‘false’ do not apply any more than ‘true’ or 'false applies to “all bachelors are unmarried”. That is a true statement, but its truth is trivial, insubstantial, not dependent on the actual state of affairs in the world, but only dependent on how we want to define our terms in our minds.
Argument and debate are for the sake of finding what is true a priori, not what you or I find objectionable, can see, or experience. The fact that we are so focused on first principles means there must be first principles; else, we would not be so obsessed with defining them.
That doesn’t follow. We are apparently obsessed with magic spells and quiddich, but that doesn’t establish them as realities, either. On first principles, it’s not hard to understand why we make them up out of whole cloth; it helps us avoid intellectual difficulties, and provides a lazy way out of hard questions that would otherwise require us to wrestle with the real world. That is a really a very strong motivation to construct first principles out of whole cloth.

Which is not to say there are no first principles we must stand on. Rather, that claiming something as a first principle, especially if we do so as a matter of popularity, doesn’t establish the bona fides for the idea as a first principle.
God is the first principle: alpha and omega. You can only “always distinguish, seldom affirm, never deny” with regards to other things… not God’s reality. 🙂
Well, there you have it. I think that is positively damning, intellectually, for God. It chains God to the “trivial zone”, where God as an idea is kept protected from the real world, and doesn’t and can’t prove its mettle as an idea that has earned the label “knowledge” or “warranted belief” (Plantinga’s “farmboy” notion of “innate warrant” for such a belief notwithstanding).

-TS
 
Not asking about any of those things at this juncture. I am asking you (or anyone) how the argument would be determined to be false in your view. Or, how would the future have to develop such that you would conclude that Aquinas’ First Way had been rendered false?

That’s all. It’s not dependent on Aquinas’, but rather what your criterion is for the potential discrediting of Aquinas’ argument (or jd’s, or…).

That isn’t relevant to my question. I’m asking on your own terms, as you understand Aquinas (or as jd understands him), what potential outcomes you can conceive of that would have you classifying Aquinas’ First Way argument as falsified?

That isn’t dependent on what I think at all. If you’re going to ask me what my view is further (and that’s fine for other parts of the discussion!), you’re veering off my question, which has nothing to do with my assessment of Aquinas’ but only with yours.

What would the world like look such that you would say the First Way has been falsified?

-TS
Well, breaking down the First Way, it makes the following assumptions/arguments:
  1. Things exist
  2. Things are in motion (i.e., things change from potentiality to actuality)
  3. Things move (i.e., actualize some property they did not previously actualize) because something that already actualizes the relevant property transmits that property to them.
  4. An infinite chain of such actual beings cannot exist at the same time (the process described in point 3 is instantaneous, so we are not talking about one thing changing, then later changing another, and so on. The question is: the fire makes me hot, so what is making the fire hot right now, and what is making that thing hot, etc.)
Now the first of these is falsifiable, but if it were false there would be no one to notice. Anyway, it clearly isn’t false. . . . .

The second is also falsifiable, though if it were false we certainly couldn’t be having this conversation–we and all other existing things would be eternally and unchangeably what they are and would have no possibility to learn or question or change in anyway.

The third is where things get tricky. I think that quantum physics is probably the best bet for falsifying this one. Unfortunately, quantum physics is darn hard to understand. But yes, I think this is in principle falsifiable. (If quantum physics falsified this one, and maybe no. 2 as well, we would still be left with the others. 5 is not, it seems to me, falsified by quantum physics even on the most indeterminist reading of quantum physics, because you could still say that the behavior of subatomic particles was directed toward a purposive end, and that is why the randomness remains solely at the subatomic level and gives rise to order at the atomic level and above.)

The infinite chain argument appeals to logic, and philosophers seem divided on whether it works. I’m not sure how you could falsify it, but perhaps there is a way to prove logically that an infinite chain exists. I certainly haven’t heard such an argument, but I’m not much of a philosopher!

Edwin
 
Over on this thread, JDaniel and I got to batting back and forth question of whether Aquinas’ Five Ways (any of them) could rise above my criticism:

Aquinas: Not even wrong.

jd doesn’t want to hijack that thread, which I think is a noble impulse, so here, if jd or anyone else is game to take it up, is a space where I stand to be corrected in saying that Aquinas’ First Way is not falsifiable, even in principle, and thus does not rise above “not even wrong”.

It is possible, even in principle, to falsify the argument in Aquinas’ First Way?

If so, how would that be done? I can’t think of a way that could be achieved.

But maybe I missed something.

jd? Anyone?

-TS
Sorry, it was time to go to sleep: so I did. However, TS, first things first: I am here. Next, if you don’t mind, would you define motion, as you understand it, for me? This is as critical to our discussion now as it was to Saint Thomas three quarters of a millennium ago.

God bless,
jd
 
Well, breaking down the First Way, it makes the following assumptions/arguments:
  1. Things exist
  2. Things are in motion (i.e., things change from potentiality to actuality)
  3. Things move (i.e., actualize some property they did not previously actualize) because something that already actualizes the relevant property transmits that property to them.
  4. An infinite chain of such actual beings cannot exist at the same time (the process described in point 3 is instantaneous, so we are not talking about one thing changing, then later changing another, and so on. The question is: the fire makes me hot, so what is making the fire hot right now, and what is making that thing hot, etc.)
Here’s an article you might be interested to read by Wes Morriston, from the Philosophy Dept. at the University Colorado:

stripe.colorado.edu/~morristo/infpast.html

Morriston (a theist, by the way), does a decent job of dismantling the “obvious” premise advanced by WL Craig in his Kalam argument – the same concept, namely that an actually infinite chain cannot exist. In the First Way this causal chain is posited for motion, and it is claimed that such a chain cannot be an infinite chain.

This section, in particular (and forward from that for a few paragraphs) locates the problem with 4 and the a priori rejection of actual infinite chains:
This is, of course, a fairly standard objection to the argument Craig is defending, and he is well aware of it. But he insists that the “impossibility of traversing the infinite” has “nothing to do with the amount of time available.” On the contrar y, he says, “it belongs to the nature of infinity that it cannot be so formed.” [EGBU]
It is not at all clear that any such thing “belongs to the nature of infinity.” Two ways in which a series of distinct, non-overlapping events might have been “formed by successive addition” have been distinguished: (i) “having started with one of the members and then having added in the rest;” and (ii) “always having been adding them in.” (i) is incompatible with “the nature of infinity.” (ii), on the other hand, is not–or at least we do not yet have an argument for thinking that it is.
Now the first of these is falsifiable, but if it were false there would be no one to notice. Anyway, it clearly isn’t false. . . . .
Agreed, although that’s the reason I am at pains to qualify the requirements more broadly … “in principle”. That certainly is a practical limitation, though. 🙂

For us, existence is ‘transcendentally true’.
The second is also falsifiable, though if it were false we certainly couldn’t be having this conversation–we and all other existing things would be eternally and unchangeably what they are and would have no possibility to learn or question or change in anyway.
This is not ‘transcendentally true’. We have the sense of motion, but the sense is not necessarily the thing. I think the sense does correspond to the thing, but that’s an inference we make with models, not something necessarily(transcendentally true).
The third is where things get tricky. I think that quantum physics is probably the best bet for falsifying this one. Unfortunately, quantum physics is darn hard to understand. But yes, I think this is in principle falsifiable. (If quantum physics falsified this one, and maybe no. 2 as well, we would still be left with the others. 5 is not, it seems to me, falsified by quantum physics even on the most indeterminist reading of quantum physics, because you could still say that the behavior of subatomic particles was directed toward a purposive end, and that is why the randomness remains solely at the subatomic level and gives rise to order at the atomic level and above.)
That’s a great answer, thank you. I happen to think so as well. If Aquinas’ First Way is liable to falsification, it only becomes so in submitting to the credentials of modern physics, which paint a much different picture of causality and temporality than what Aquinas had available to him back in 13C. But, I bet you are aware that this is just as easily rejected as inert; science just doesn’t understand reality, the dynamics our intuition demand, which are that things necessarily move for a discrete reason. Science, on this view, is utter powerless against Aquinas, as is all and any evidence.
The infinite chain argument appeals to logic, and philosophers seem divided on whether it works. I’m not sure how you could falsify it, but perhaps there is a way to prove logically that an infinite chain exists. I certainly haven’t heard such an argument, but I’m not much of a philosopher!
That’s the rub, really. There isn’t a means to establish that, so far as anyone is aware, even in principle. That places the premise “out of scope” for true/false based on the principle of falsifiability. If it is false, we have no way to discern that or to show its falsehood.

As a (the) crucial link in the syllogism, Aquinas has ventured nothing, put nothing at risk, is liable to no correction from the real world whatsoever. Darwin and “rabbits in the Pre-cambrian” is ever at risk of being discredited, and indeed, despite his stellar success on the main points of evolutionary theory, many of the arguments he ventured were falsified and thoroughly discredited. He has put his ideas forth in a way that has them at risk, subjecting them to the ‘verdict of the real world’, where they may be vindicated or utterly discredited.

Aquinas doesn’t even got on the playing field. His arguments like this one, ensure that his arguments aren’t accountable or liable to any such risk. If Darwin is wrong, we have a way to discover it, to our epistemic advantage. Darwin can be “even wrong”. Aquinas can’t even be wrong, as if he is/was, we have no possible way to know it.

-TS
 
Sorry, it was time to go to sleep: so I did. However, TS, first things first: I am here. Next, if you don’t mind, would you define motion, as you understand it, for me? This is as critical to our discussion now as it was to Saint Thomas three quarters of a millennium ago.

God bless,
jd
I rely on Aquinas’ own formulation, or rather Aristotle’s which he embraced: the act of a being in potency insofar as it is in potency. As a practical matter, that’s not “motion” in the physics sense (although it can include what we call ‘motion’ in physics), but the process undergone in losing one accidental form and acquiring another. Motion transition between forms.

That’s my understanding of motion per Aquinas. What’s yours, and how do the two comport?

-TS
 
Not asking about any of those things at this juncture. I am asking you (or anyone) how the argument would be determined to be false in your view. Or, how would the future have to develop such that you would conclude that Aquinas’ First Way had been rendered false?
I think Aquinas’ arguments are absolutely conclusive – absolutely certain – having exhausted the possibilities that the mind can conceive should things be otherwise. So, I do not see any way that they can be either false, or, since I think they are demonstrations built off self-evident axioms and principles, can they be falsifiable.
 
I rely on Aquinas’ own formulation, or rather Aristotle’s which he embraced: the act of a being in potency insofar as it is in potency. As a practical matter, that’s not “motion” in the physics sense (although it can include what we call ‘motion’ in physics), but the process undergone in losing one accidental form and acquiring another. Motion transition between forms.

That’s my understanding of motion per Aquinas. What’s yours, and how do the two comport?

-TS
TS:

Well, that’s close to Aristotle’s and Aquinas’ definition. Notwithstanding, which do you subscribe to: the A/A definition or the physics definition? This is very important to our starting our discussion. I’m not trying to be persnickety.

God bless,
jd
 
I can think of 2 ways, but I may be oversimplifying:
  1. Prove an infinite casual or motion chain is possible
  2. Prove something can put itself in motion
If you define “first mover” as God specifically, then any natural explanation would work as well.

I’m not deep into Thomistic Philosophy, so like I said, I could be wrong or over-simplifying, but from what I’ve read of the first way these seem to work. 🙂
 
Understanding what your saying here, but putting it on hold for just a moment to ask - per the OP: do you understand the First Way to be falsifiable?

Maybe it’s not important, it’s question begging, etc. But first, where do you come down on the question posed?

-TS
In a scientific context, no it isn’t falsifiable. But something doesn’t have to be falsifiable in order to be understood as true.
 
I think Aquinas’ arguments are absolutely conclusive – absolutely certain – having exhausted the possibilities that the mind can conceive should things be otherwise. So, I do not see any way that they can be either false, or, since I think they are demonstrations built off self-evident axioms and principles, can they be falsifiable.
Ok, so I can mark you down as a “no”, then. Thank you.

-TS
 
TS:

Well, that’s close to Aristotle’s and Aquinas’ definition. Notwithstanding, which do you subscribe to: the A/A definition or the physics definition? This is very important to our starting our discussion. I’m not trying to be persnickety.

God bless,
jd
I’m fine with, and experienced in using Thomist semantics for “motion” for the purposes of discussion. I’m not sure what you mean by “subscribe”, because we are talking about definitions here, not physics models (right?). So I can subscribe to any definition I understand, no matter if I agree with its application, etc.

Having lived in the Provo, UT area years ago, I still maintain friendships with Mormons I met there, and running theological discussions, which I enjoy. Their definition of “grace” is different than mine was a Protestant Christian, but I’ve no trouble stipulating to the mormon definition for the purposes of clear discussion, and not just talking past each other.

Happy to do so here on the Thomist definition of “motion”.

-TS
 
I think Aquinas’ arguments are absolutely conclusive – absolutely certain – having exhausted the possibilities that the mind can conceive should things be otherwise. So, I do not see any way that they can be either false, or, since I think they are demonstrations built off self-evident axioms and principles, can they be falsifiable.
Exodus:

I think that they can be falsified, but I’m not ready to say how just yet. The meanings of the words Aquinas uses and clear understandings of the arguments must come first. I think Touchstone and I can discover their falsifications. Keep an eye out for this to happen. Remember, “falsification” here means that the world would be a very different place if they were false. 🙂

God bless,
jd
 
I’m fine with, and experienced in using Thomist semantics for “motion” for the purposes of discussion. I’m not sure what you mean by “subscribe”, because we are talking about definitions here, not physics models (right?). So I can subscribe to any definition I understand, no matter if I agree with its application, etc.

Having lived in the Provo, UT area years ago, I still maintain friendships with Mormons I met there, and running theological discussions, which I enjoy. Their definition of “grace” is different than mine was a Protestant Christian, but I’ve no trouble stipulating to the mormon definition for the purposes of clear discussion, and not just talking past each other.

Happy to do so here on the Thomist definition of “motion”.

-TS
TS:

Muchas gracias for being so versatile and accommodating. I guess I really want to know which definition, then, is the one you agree with? Also, to shorten these preliminaries, can you give a brief definition of ‘motion’ from physics?

Just to clarify Aquinas’ definition a bit: Motion is the act of the potential precisely as potential. It is not just specific only to beings. It can refer to that which is not being yet, such as the matter of the act of coming to be, or, perhaps even of virtual particles. It can also be defined as the act of the potential qua potential.

God bless,
jd
 
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