Is arizona law right?

[Jermosh]

This law isn’t in effect yet. What are you talking about?! References, links, etc.
Meanwhile, here’s something real to be sympathetic about: nationalterroralert.com/updates/2009/02/13/kidnapping-capital-of-the-usa-phoenix-arizona/

Thats really the fault of the US failure on the “War on Drugs”, unfortantly when a product gives 10,000% profit range, you will see the worst of people. This new bill will not fully address the issue with drug trafficking, in fact it may make it worse.

 

[lelhajj]

what about the recent incident of a hispanic beaten by the police in Seattle. any opinions about it?

 

[Redtown]

RE: “what about the recent incident of a hispanic beaten by the police in Seattle. any opinions about it?”

We still don’t know if the (bank robbery) suspects were resisting arrest thereby justifying police force. We do know one officer used racial words for which he should definitely be disciplined or fired.

But in relation to the Arizona law, my question is: Should we therefore not enforce the laws against trespassing because some police officer might abuse his authority?

A police officer can abuse his authority in enforcing any law. Should we therefore not enforce laws against murder, stealing, traffic violations, etc?

 

[CAnnElizabeth]

As far as I’ve been able to determine, Americans are NOT required to carry identification at all times. You are required to have proper identification to drive or to buy or do certain things that carry an age requirement, but we are certainly not shackled to any form of ID just on the off chance that we might be stopped and questioned.

There has been considerable debate about having to do so in the future, but it is not the law now (except, apparently, in Arizona?).

This link is to the California Catholic Conference with a discussion on the various aspects of immigration from the Catholic point of view.
cacatholic.org/index.php/news-and-analysis/immigration.html

Those of us who live in states highly impacted by ILLEGAL immigration may be more sensitive to the problems that have been caused over the years, including language and cultural differences, levels of poverty, bigotry and discrimination, drug trafficking, and the horrendous and ongoing dangers of gang violence.

There is always a tension between the perfect ideal, what “ought to be,” and the present reality of “what is.” In any discussion about immigration problems, **I feel it is critical to differentiate between illegal and legal immigration. ** Unless one has roots as a Native American, we are all descendants of immigrants; however, it has been only in recent years that illegal immigration has become the disaster that it is today.

I personally wish President Obama would begin to address this problem, as he has promised to do – it seems much more urgent to me than tinkering with a health care system that really isn’t that broken or levying hidden taxes such as in “cap and trade” legislation.

 

[lelhajj]

enforce in the way the police is doing: definitely no. excusing themselves of their behavior to grab an individual and beat him just because “he might be suspicious”: completely unjust.
If the police comes and beat you for no reason, i don’t believe you will be or any of us, happy about it.

 

[lelhajj]

As real catholics, we should not promote or justify such aberrations. It is our duty to act the way Jesus taught us to be. Not only what is good to us, but what is fair to everybody.
If i see you that you are being beaten by a police officer for no reason, would i just walk away and make like i did not see anything? shall i excuse the police officer? Just because it is you, the one who is being beaten, not ME?

 

[josephdaniel29]

As real catholics, we should not promote or justify such aberrations. It is our duty to act the way Jesus taught us to be. Not only what is good to us, but what is fair to everybody.
If i see you that you are being beaten by a police officer for no reason, would i just walk away and make like i did not see anything? shall i excuse the police officer? Just because it is you, the one who is being beaten, not ME?

What do either of your last two posts have to do with the new AZ law?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[markbrumbaugh]

What do either of your last two posts have to do with the new AZ law?

Yours in Christ
Joe

Nothing to do with the Arizona law which says Arizona will follow US law.

When I used to travel internationally on business, heaven help me if I didn’t have my papers. What is the big deal. All I had to do overseas is ask for a hotel to spend the night No papers, no hotel. In Arizona, they won’t be asked unless they are perceived to be breaking a law.

Get a life libs.

 

[JReducation]

I must confess that I did have a bad experience with immigration officials, but not in AZ. I’m a Hebrew Hispanic, though my family has been in the USA since 1908. I have a Hispanic last name and that Middle-Eastern look, which is very similar to that of many Hispanics.

I was coming ack from our missions in Ecuador and I was pulled into a small room at the airport in Miami. I had to go through immigration and customs at Miami before proceeding to Pgh. They asked me at least five times about my citizenship. I showed them my passport. I did not have a birth certificate. They asked me if I had other proof of citizenship. I did not. They wanted to know what I was entering and leaving the USA so often. I explained that I was a missionary. You have to get this picture. I’m wearing a full habit and in my suitcase there is another habit. I have a backpack with a breviary and a bible in it. In my pockets I had a rosary.

They made me empty out my backpack and my pockets. They asked me if I had anything else. I said that I did not. They asked me for my license. I gave it to them. They did not like it, because it was an international license. I explained that I was a missionary and therefore I had an international license, because I often drove in the USA, Ecuador, Colombia and Peru, which neighbor Ecuador to the north and south. This whole conversation is taking place in English.

They kept asking me where I was born. I told them that I was born in Virginia. This part is acutally funny. One of the two people asked me if there was any other way that I could prove that I was an American. At which point I’m getting very upset, because I have to make a connecting flight to Pittsburgh. I turned around toward the two men and began to sing the Star Spangled Banner.

I should have been arrested for slaughtering that National Anthem. I can’t reach those high notes. They just looked at each other and told me to go. But I was very upset.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[lelhajj]

I have had the same experience as our Brother. Very unpleasant ones that i do not want even to remember. But, i certainly would not like to be verbally or physically abused by the police, not as an American, not as a human being.

 

[lelhajj]

And i tell you, i am living overseas, trying to get jobs for our country. I would not like to go back to my country and be beaten or being humilliated because of my race. What did i do wrong? I have been trying to represent my country with pride, good will and knowledge. I am also representing my religion against millions of muslims where i live. How am i supposed to feel so proud of who i am, when my own country is discriminating my own race? when my children are being targetted and they might be subject to such an unjustice like the hispanic beaten in seattle, when our own catholic community does not show even mercy for those poor illegal immigrants? Don’t you believe, muslims must be happy that we, christians are really against each other?

 

[pnewton]

I must confess that I did have a bad experience with immigration officials, but not in AZ.

I think the concern is that this sort of racial profiling will expand from entrance portals to the streets of America with this type of law. I guess time will tell.

 

[Corki]

I think the concern is that this sort of racial profiling will expand from entrance portals to the streets of America with this type of law. I guess time will tell.

I would bet most local police officers use some form of racial profiling and this law isn’t really going to change that. The only thing that changes with the law is that being here illegally becomes a state crime, not just a federal one.

If the local citizenry felt that the police and other state/local officials were doing something about the illegal immigrants who are breaking other laws, they might not feel so helpless. Violence and anger might actually diminish.

I guess time will tell.

 

[Redtown]

It’s important to remember that the Arizona law is a *secondary enforcement *law. In other words, the police have to stop you for another reason first – a traffic violation or other offense – before they can check your citizenship/ immigration status. They can’t just walk up to you out of the blue and demand to see your papers. This should minimize any chances of racial profiling.

 

[mpb74]

The law is not right, not constitutional, not American and not Christian. In a way, very anti-Catholic too, since the people targeted are almost all Catholic, and probably on average more devout Catholics than their “American cousins”.

I like that Archbishop Dolan (New York) published an article calling the law “unbiblical, inhumane, and un-American”. And I like that Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles publicly denounced it as well, calling it “retrogressive, mean-spirited, and useless”.

American Catholicism and immigration are very intertwined, and in our nation’s history we have seen these attacks several times, which have targeted “poor” immigrant Catholics to a great extent. It is amazing that the attitudes I thought had finally disappeared decades ago have resurfaced with a vengeance. But it is good to see the American Catholic Church represented by such eminent figures as Dolan and Mahony take the lead in fighting it.

Catholics should be proud of these men and many others like them in representing the Church and living the Gospel in attacking hate, fear and bigotry.

To push this law as anti-Catholic is silly. This law only affects people who have previously broken immigration laws the Vatican recognizes as legitimate. It is thus against criminals.
This typical “it’s bigotry” line is cover for the lack of an intellectually sound argument against the law. Mahoney LIED about this law. plainly and simply lied. He and Dolan and Kinkanas are not relevant because they are dishonest on this issue. They cannot further their argument so they resort to lies, distortions and emotional blackmail to push thier positions. They are Anti Truth, and therefore anti-Catholic and anti-Christ. (Not as in the Anti-Christ) but as in against Christ.I am in Dolan’s Diocese and have deregistered from my parish this week because of Dolan’s comment’s. These bishop’s are now little more than politicians. I ripped up my envelopes and will instead give to local charities. I will not give them one red cent to further their propaganda campaign.
I heard Kinkanas compare conditions in Mexico to the Nazi concentration camps several years ago. It is emotional blackmail. What a fake, phony, fraud.
Christ is truth. These men are not representaive of Christ, In Persona Christi, with these political antics.
A Catholic Bishop should never lie. It’s not like they have wive’s they have to say to, No Honey, you don’t look fat in that dress.

 

[St_Francis]

I must confess that I did have a bad experience with immigration officials, but not in AZ. I’m a Hebrew Hispanic, though my family has been in the USA since 1908. I have a Hispanic last name and that Middle-Eastern look, which is very similar to that of many Hispanics.

I was coming ack from our missions in Ecuador and I was pulled into a small room at the airport in Miami. I had to go through immigration and customs at Miami before proceeding to Pgh. They asked me at least five times about my citizenship. I showed them my passport. I did not have a birth certificate. They asked me if I had other proof of citizenship. I did not. They wanted to know what I was entering and leaving the USA so often. I explained that I was a missionary. You have to get this picture. I’m wearing a full habit and in my suitcase there is another habit. I have a backpack with a breviary and a bible in it. In my pockets I had a rosary.

They made me empty out my backpack and my pockets. They asked me if I had anything else. I said that I did not. They asked me for my license. I gave it to them. They did not like it, because it was an international license. I explained that I was a missionary and therefore I had an international license, because I often drove in the USA, Ecuador, Colombia and Peru, which neighbor Ecuador to the north and south. This whole conversation is taking place in English.

They kept asking me where I was born. I told them that I was born in Virginia. This part is acutally funny. One of the two people asked me if there was any other way that I could prove that I was an American. At which point I’m getting very upset, because I have to make a connecting flight to Pittsburgh. I turned around toward the two men and began to sing the Star Spangled Banner.

I should have been arrested for slaughtering that National Anthem. I can’t reach those high notes. They just looked at each other and told me to go. But I was very upset.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I have had the same experience as our Brother. Very unpleasant ones that i do not want even to remember. But, i certainly would not like to be verbally or physically abused by the police, not as an American, not as a human being.

It’s really a shame that both of you went through this. My sister also had a similar experience when she was traveling. She has a darker complexion like my parents do, but she attributed this to the fact that she was wearing clothes that looked sort of revolutionary (since this was long before racial profiling became an issue).

I feel bad that there are people in the world necessitating this type of government activity, and I also feel bad that there are people working for the government who are overbearing and obnoxious.

 

[mpb74]

I owe Cardinal Mahoney an apology. I misread the article and wrongly attributed the quote to him. He did not lie. Istand by my comments however as he has demonized proponents of the law calling them mean spirited. He also compared the law to Nazi and Communist regimes. Nazi and communist are the same however.

 

[mpb74]

Lehajj,

You seem to know how “real Catholics” should act. May I ask where you gained the authority to tell others what is “real Catholic” behavior. I’ve always been of the mind that one who follows the totallity of the Catechism is in accord with Catholic thought.
That said, I wonder if you think it is “real Catholic” of you to stereotype Police Officers in general of abuse people of and of racially profiling certain minorities. You also said you would not like to be abused by the police. Would you like to be abused by anyone? I don’t think that you would. Why single out the police? Or are you trying to promote a political message on a religous message board?
Your failure to link to any proof of your numerous allegations on this forum lead me to think you are inventing them out of nowhere. If they are true, I apologize.If I were to stereotype any group of people, I would believe myself to be exhibiting a complete lack of Christian charity. I believe I would be judged harshly for that come judgement day. To stereotype any group of people is to lack recognition of each individuals human dignity, before God almighty, and shows a pathetic lack of Christ’s teaching. That is my understanding of being a “real Catholic”. But the only person’s fidelity to the teachings of the Church I can judge or control are my own.
Having been a professional Police Officer, now retired,I have known many aetheistic Police Officers who treat people, especially the oppressed and defenseless, with more Christian charity, as taught by the Church, than many outspoken “Good Catholics”, as they describe themselves. I submit, the only human being to know what is in another person’s heart, ever, was, is, and will ever be, Jesus Christ. Next time you see a Police Officer try as hard to see Christ in him as you do the people you love. Just a suggestion, do as you see fit.
I see you as a political enemy, but still a full member of the Body of Christ, as much as I am. I am required to love you but not to agree with you. I wonder if others believe as I do, that only complete truth, and complete honesty, especially when facets of the truth hurt our arguments or go against our beliefs or feelings, will make us more faithful to Christ’s teachings and lead to a world where we can bring the Good News of Jesus Christ to all peoples as the Lord has commanded. I believe as the Church teaches that we can never do evil, however slight, to bring about a greater good. To lie, to slander, to stereotype peolple, for any reason is never justifiable. God may bring a greater good of it, but that will be God’s doing , not ours, and the Church teaches that we will be judged harshly for it. I have enough to answer for, I pray I can avoid those traps, I choose to recognize God plan’s are always infinitesmally greater than mine.

 

[lelhajj]

In response to your post, mpb74 i would like to make clear: i am not slandering nobody. What i have written here, it is my personal opinnion and facts that i am aware of. I am not going to go into trying to make a debate about each one of the points that i already wrote. God is my witness about what i have written is true.
I have always have great respect for our police officers and i hope they continue doing their job with honesty and fairness as i do also have honored my own profession.
I leave the rest of my comments to God, He is the one to decide if i did wrong or not.
I certainly do not believe that expressing our own experiences, thoughts, doubts is something wrong. I do not come here to argue, this is something really that i hate to do, let’s live in peace and follow the steps of Jesus, that is all that i can say. You have never been in my shoes and i have never been in my shoes. Therefore each one has different perspectives even about the same subject.
May God always be with you.
Thank you.