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FCEGM
Guest
I agree; this cannot be applied subjectively, but as an objective point for those who think that aiding a suffering person to end his or her life is a valid or godly assist for that person.
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Rascalking
Guest
Alright, instead of saying “not true” like you are the full fountian of wisdom in the world, why can’t you say, “In my experience…”
Thanks.
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Waiting
Guest
O.k… in my experience it wasn’t true.
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Rascalking
Guest
There you go. Your talking about the experience in one case. Sadly, I’ve had the experience of being around dying people several times. In each case, I could have lectured them about the the glory of suffering, but instead, manners and common sense told me that perhaps it’s not the best time for a scripture/catechism lesson. If it works different for you-great, but I recommend using different ways to attract converts.
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Waiting
Guest
I wasn’t evangelizing; I was comforting. I, too, have been around other dying people, my father, for example. Each case is different. In his case, he was the one to ask for a priest. People know when they are dying. They want to be prepared. Most, at least.
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StTommyMore
Guest
We aren’t talking about pontificating here, but offering solace to those whose loved ones are suffering.
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JDaniel
Guest
Some place earlier up the chain of posts it was said that a 'right" was that which is handed down from on high, from a king, for example, to those below him that permitted them to perform or participate in actions that required his/her ultimate approval, or, something to that effect. That is not what a “right” is, in my humble opinion. A right is that which is accorded from one person to another precisely because it is reciprocated. Because there is God, however, there are 'rights" that are accorded by God, that is, they are not realized due to reciprocity.
Furthermore, it is my opinion that rights exist in a hierarchy. There are those which are more transcendent for reasons of prevention of immanent death or destruction, those that are more transcendent due to historicity, those that are more transcendent due to ranking of the objects, or the subjects., etc. Most people would no doubt agree that the most transcendent right would be the right to life. All other rights are intermediary to the right to life.
The right to life is a right that satisfies both prerequisites, reciprocity and God. In this case, the human must acquiesce to the higher prerequisite. The right to life acquired of God is the higher prerequisite. Nevertheless, both prerequisites confirm certain axioms with regard to “life.” First, that life is from God, that is, is a participation in it with its creator. And second, it must be attended to by each and every human being. One cannot presume to “play God,” as we say.
We do not, nor can we ever, know the big picture surrounding each and every human being. Therefore, we cannot presumptuously guess at every one of a dying person’s circumstances, reasons, or rationales. We can never really know where a person stands with regard to his/her afterlife, or reality of pain, or somatics. Most of us merely wish to be helpful, and pain and suffering is something each of us, whether theistic or atheistic, can find agreement that we would like to lessen it for those who need it so. But, the person suffering does not take the burden off of a Catholic by granting permission of death. A Catholic may ease suffering but must not take a life to do so. Nor can a Catholic go out to find an atheist or non-Catholic to render the service. A Catholic cannot materially assist in any way in the killing, or mercy killing, of another person. First, due to God’s Providence and second, due to man’s fundamental agreement with all fellow men.
Self-preservation is the rare exception and is actually based upon that very same reciprocity.
God bless,
jd
Furthermore, it is my opinion that rights exist in a hierarchy. There are those which are more transcendent for reasons of prevention of immanent death or destruction, those that are more transcendent due to historicity, those that are more transcendent due to ranking of the objects, or the subjects., etc. Most people would no doubt agree that the most transcendent right would be the right to life. All other rights are intermediary to the right to life.
The right to life is a right that satisfies both prerequisites, reciprocity and God. In this case, the human must acquiesce to the higher prerequisite. The right to life acquired of God is the higher prerequisite. Nevertheless, both prerequisites confirm certain axioms with regard to “life.” First, that life is from God, that is, is a participation in it with its creator. And second, it must be attended to by each and every human being. One cannot presume to “play God,” as we say.
We do not, nor can we ever, know the big picture surrounding each and every human being. Therefore, we cannot presumptuously guess at every one of a dying person’s circumstances, reasons, or rationales. We can never really know where a person stands with regard to his/her afterlife, or reality of pain, or somatics. Most of us merely wish to be helpful, and pain and suffering is something each of us, whether theistic or atheistic, can find agreement that we would like to lessen it for those who need it so. But, the person suffering does not take the burden off of a Catholic by granting permission of death. A Catholic may ease suffering but must not take a life to do so. Nor can a Catholic go out to find an atheist or non-Catholic to render the service. A Catholic cannot materially assist in any way in the killing, or mercy killing, of another person. First, due to God’s Providence and second, due to man’s fundamental agreement with all fellow men.
Self-preservation is the rare exception and is actually based upon that very same reciprocity.
God bless,
jd
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Spock
Guest
What is it, then? The one who is in power “promises” that the subordinate one can perform an act, or refrain from performing an act without fear of repercussions.
“Rights” are based upon enforcement. If a “right” cannot be enforced, it is not much of a “right”, is it? And only the powerful one can enforce a right, a weak one cannot. So there is not need for reciprocity. If a weak one tells the strong one: "I will allow you to do ", the strong one can answer: “I don’t care what you allow. Even you do not allow, I will do it, and see if you can stop me”.
Precisely. This is the reason why it is unacceptable to take over the decision process, and override someone’s wish to die. It is unacceptable to say “I know what is good for you. You will have to endure more pain and more suffering. So shut up, and offer up your suffering to the greater glory of God. Every time you puke or soil yourself, God rejoices at seeing your brave act of enduring your predicament.” This type of attitude is exactly what “playing God” means. You know, the sword cuts both ways.
Of course, we shall never agree on this. You say that we are not the proprietors of our bodies, we are merely caretakers, who have responisibilities but no “rights”. God does not give us the “right” to end this existence. Apparently, God’s slogan is: “The beatings will continue until the morale improves”.
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PAboy57
Guest
Dear Spock,What is it, then? The one who is in power “promises” that the subordinate one can perform an act, or refrain from performing an act without fear of repercussions.
“Rights” are based upon enforcement. If a “right” cannot be enforced, it is not much of a “right”, is it? And only the powerful one can enforce a right, a weak one cannot. So there is not need for reciprocity. If a weak one tells the strong one: "I will allow you to do ", the strong one can answer: “I don’t care what you allow. Even you do not allow, I will do it, and see if you can stop me”.
Precisely. This is the reason why it is unacceptable to take over the decision process, and override someone’s wish to die. It is unacceptable to say “I know what is good for you. You will have to endure more pain and more suffering. So shut up, and offer up your suffering to the greater glory of God. Every time you puke or soil yourself, God rejoices at seeing your brave act of enduring your predicament.” This type of attitude is exactly what “playing God” means. You know, the sword cuts both ways.
Of course, we shall never agree on this. You say that we are not the proprietors of our bodies, we are merely caretakers, who have responisibilities but no “rights”. God does not give us the “right” to end this existence. Apparently, God’s slogan is: “The beatings will continue until the morale improves”.
We simply don’t kill people as Catholics and leave that to our God period. Remember comfortable as possible. They make people very comfortable as I just recently witnessed less than 2 weeks ago. I’ll also remind you that we die for our faith as is being witnessed now and in the past. Our faith is strong in most cases because of our belief system.
Your belief is not anything close to ours and probably never will be. We do discuss death ahead of time when possible, people make living wills, etc. I don’t know how your family has agreed to handle. Have you discussed your personal wishes to be killed rather than to be made comfortable and let natural death take its route? Do you have specific advise on a living will you would like to offer up?
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Spock
Guest
It is great when it can be done. Administering the correct amount of painkillers is commendable. But sometimes the pain cannot be “killed”. There are instances when no pain medication works any more. What then?
If that is the way how you want it, more power to you. No one should stand in your way and force their differing opinion unto you. Your wish must be respected. Why don’t you respect someone else’s wish if it is different from yours? You, personally are not required to act against your beliefs.
Very true. But I do not wish to impose my beliefs unto you. I respect your beliefs, and support your right to live (or die) by them. Why can’t you reciprocate that respect? This is not a rhetorical question. I am really interested in your answer.
Absolutely. With my wife we both have a living will, in which we both give the power to each other to act in the other’s best interest as we put it down in our living will. I trust her to be strong and refuse to extend my life via artifical means if I can get into a certain condition, called persistent vegetative state. If it were legal, I would demand to adminster a lethal dose of some appropriate substance. I find it undignifying and horrible that my wish is against some idiotic law. I don’t agree that “life” should be extended as long as it is medically possible. I don’t consider life and death as contradictory, rather I consider life and suffering contradictory. This is my view, and I don’t want anyone to “jump” in and prevent my wish to be carried out.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
We all tend to come in to life with a user mentality, as if we are playing a game that we can choose to depart from when the going gets tuff. Its understandable, and I would never judge those who commit suicide out of a desire to escape pain. And I don’t believe that all people who commit suicide go to hell.
Back to the game user analogy; if the value of human life is determined by how much pleasure it gives to the user, then certainly I can do them the favour of ending their life, and this is because their personal life is no-longer of value to them. Its value is purely subjective. I do not value the virtual objects in a computer game beyond the pleasure they can give me.
I guess the real question is “would I preserve that which is truly good, even if a person is in absolute agony?” The Catholic has no choice but to preserve that life, not because they are sick, but because they can see or believe that the value of personal existence outweighs personal suffering precisely because personal human existence is objectively good and objectively valuable and thus its value is not determined by the beliefs or feelings of the user. If the continuation of personal life is objectively good, then it seems to me that we ought to suffer for its preservation, since to do otherwise would be a rejection of the belief that human life is objectively good or valuable, and thus more valuable and relevant than subjective human opinion. If we deny the objective value of human life, then we lose the objective moral right to demand moral relief from suffering.
Thus the rejection of assisted suicide is rationally consistent with belief that human life is objectively valuable; as is the rejection of abortion.
Back to the game user analogy; if the value of human life is determined by how much pleasure it gives to the user, then certainly I can do them the favour of ending their life, and this is because their personal life is no-longer of value to them. Its value is purely subjective. I do not value the virtual objects in a computer game beyond the pleasure they can give me.
I guess the real question is “would I preserve that which is truly good, even if a person is in absolute agony?” The Catholic has no choice but to preserve that life, not because they are sick, but because they can see or believe that the value of personal existence outweighs personal suffering precisely because personal human existence is objectively good and objectively valuable and thus its value is not determined by the beliefs or feelings of the user. If the continuation of personal life is objectively good, then it seems to me that we ought to suffer for its preservation, since to do otherwise would be a rejection of the belief that human life is objectively good or valuable, and thus more valuable and relevant than subjective human opinion. If we deny the objective value of human life, then we lose the objective moral right to demand moral relief from suffering.
Thus the rejection of assisted suicide is rationally consistent with belief that human life is objectively valuable; as is the rejection of abortion.
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puzzleannie
Guest
nothing in Church teaching on assisted suicide precludes giving pain medication if the intent is to reduce pain, even if the secondary effects may be to shorten life by depressing breathing, bp etc. In other words, you could not dope the person to death, but you could administer legal drugs in the quanity necessary to reduce pain.
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Rascalking
Guest
Um, remember I said I agreed with the church. What would happen if I said I disagreed!
Jeez.
Jeez.
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PAboy57
Guest
I appreciate your candor and have some understanding how you feel regarding this issue. I have issues in which I feel equally as strong about. When the rules in this country change to the point that I can no longer take it, I will leave. Hopefully I will be able to find someplace to go that provides more personal fulfillment. Until then I just have to live the best I can within the law of the land and work with the system.
Thanks.
S
Spock
Guest
I agree with you. As a matter of fact, the US is my chosen country, and I feel very strongly about the “constitutional republic” (not “democracy”!) there. My first act after obtaining citizenship was to get my voting registration card, even before getting a passport.
It might be a very interesting conversation to talk about the political and legal system. The latter should not be confused with some “justice” system.
Btw, I made a short synopsys of my beliefs in the other thread. We can talk more about them, if you wish.
K
kentuckyliz
Guest
Less than half of euthanasia cases in the Netherlands are by request of the patient or with their consent. Seniors are afraid to go to the hospital because they have lost trust in the health care system; they think they’re going to be put down because they’re old. Doctors also perform infanticides on imperfect babies without consulting with the parents.
It is an abomination and a total violation of the (not specifically Christian) Hippocratic oath.
For the system to work, we must have absolute trust in those professionals with that level of power and skill.
Human life has dignity regardless of how young or old, healthy or sick, able bodied or disabled.
Depression is not a terminal disease; it is treatable.
Don’t make silly assumptions about end of life palliative care and the dying process unless you are an experienced hospice nurse. They can do so much to make patients comfortable.
Don’t get a living will, get a state specific Protective Medical Decisions Document/Health Care Power of Attorney. Living wills cede decisions to doctors and boards who don’t know you and they can decide badly. The HCPOA restricts their unilateral exercise of power and gives the decision to your designated person. I have one and need it!
In OR, an ER refused cardiac intervention to a retarded woman because they decided her quality of life was below par–because she was retarded! They let her die untreated! That is an abomination.
It is an abomination and a total violation of the (not specifically Christian) Hippocratic oath.
For the system to work, we must have absolute trust in those professionals with that level of power and skill.
Human life has dignity regardless of how young or old, healthy or sick, able bodied or disabled.
Depression is not a terminal disease; it is treatable.
Don’t make silly assumptions about end of life palliative care and the dying process unless you are an experienced hospice nurse. They can do so much to make patients comfortable.
Don’t get a living will, get a state specific Protective Medical Decisions Document/Health Care Power of Attorney. Living wills cede decisions to doctors and boards who don’t know you and they can decide badly. The HCPOA restricts their unilateral exercise of power and gives the decision to your designated person. I have one and need it!
In OR, an ER refused cardiac intervention to a retarded woman because they decided her quality of life was below par–because she was retarded! They let her die untreated! That is an abomination.
H
hxcCatholic413
Guest
I do realize that you are in full agreement of the Church’s teachings; however I just wanted to point out what I bolded^ above. Could we use that same argument to abort the life of a child because the mother will die (and i’m not referring to ectopic pregnancies)…assuming she too is in a lot of pain? or no?
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PAboy57
Guest
I did see the synopsys and appreciate the reference point.I agree with you. As a matter of fact, the US is my chosen country, and I feel very strongly about the “constitutional republic” (not “democracy”!) there. My first act after obtaining citizenship was to get my voting registration card, even before getting a passport.
It might be a very interesting conversation to talk about the political and legal system. The latter should not be confused with some “justice” system.
Politics, legal, justice =
Thanks much.
P
PAboy57
Guest
Didn’t realize that and thank you for the valuable info.
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LemonAndLime
Guest
At my Church there are notices saying that in our local hospital, it is common practice that the dying have food and water taken away from them as they enter the dying phase as they are considered “medications”. I don’t know a lot about the care of the dying, but I have spoken to people who do know about it and they said that it should not happen, particularly in the long term. I think its going a bit too far to suggest it’s common practice.
However… telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html
I do not agree with assisted suicide, I also agree that it can lead on a slippery slope. In this country its illegal but no one has been prosecuted for helping someone to Switzerland to kill themselves, even though hundreds have done so. Yet I cannot help feeling that if I, for example, was in incredible pain and couldn’t even move that I would not want to exist like that for very long. Even worse if you knew it was coming. I would like to hope though that my belief in God would keep me strong, and that my family/carers would ensure I still had spiritual support if I lost the ability to go to Mass. However, not everyone believes the same things we do, and their priorities would be different. So I will honour my country’s laws/NHS evidence-based policy but I would respect someone’s decision if they made it themselves - I can understand it completely - whether I personally approve or not is not my concern.
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