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reggieM
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“Master, what is the greatest commandment in the law?” Matt. 22:36
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R
reggieM
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Of course there is an ultimate, or an “end” toward which we are drawn. You know this and express it right here and now, even as you deny it at the same time. That end is “not you” (or God as we call it), that end is something outside you.
He’s pointing to the conflict in your views and looking for a resolution. It’s not a matter of accepting your point of view, but of wanting some logical consistency.I really don’t agree here, If you can’t accept my reality I am presenting, not my problem and not a conversation worth continuing since you can’t accept my point of view as an honest representation. Everyone is lieing to you about their reality you don’t accept is an absurd way to have a conversation.
Since any string of numbers, multiplied by zero will equal zero, it wouldn’t make sense to say that some of them are actually greater than zero if you look at them one at a time (and therefore the result can be anything but zero).
If ultimately there is no purpose, that is what we have to use to measure all actions that occur. Everything is of exactly equal value. Zero.
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Russell_SA
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Which is an absurd point of reference for meaning, meaning that lasts beyond your experience of it. That is why my car has meaning now for its influence in my life now, regardless of anything beyond its or my lifetime.He’s pointing to the conflict in your views and looking for a resolution. It’s not a matter of accepting your point of view, but of wanting some logical consistency.
Since any string of numbers, multiplied by zero will equal zero, it wouldn’t make sense to say that some of them are actually greater than zero if you look at them one at a time (and therefore the result can be anything but zero).
If ultimately there is no purpose, that is what we have to use to measure all actions that occur. Everything is of exactly equal value. Zero.
Ultimate meaning according to whom? Your culture still can’t even show your deity is any more real than every other literary character ever imagined and has yet to convince people like me that it’s point of reference for meaning is more important than our own.
Ultimate meaning according to a deity is no different than according to bob or Jane or anyone else you want to reference. So it’s back to just meaning for ourselves.
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reggieM
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I don’t follow that. The car has meaning because it allows you to accomplish purposes you have set for the future. You literally “want to go somewhere”. So, your meaning is directed not to “now” but to some reason you have for your future life.Which is an absurd point of reference for meaning, meaning that lasts beyond your experience of it. That is why my car has meaning now for its influence in my life now, regardless of anything beyond its or my lifetime.
As I explained, when your ultimate meaning is zero, or nothing - which is what it is, then you can’t compare that with anything else. You just nullified the value of it. You’re saying “my meaning is zero and that is important”. No - you don’t have a meaning.Ultimate meaning according to whom? Your culture still can’t even show your deity is any more real than every other literary character ever imagined and has yet to convince people like me that it’s point of reference for meaning is more important than our own.
That is not rational. It explains nothing - as I said, it is nothing.
God is the far better explanation. That there is an intelligent Being that gives all people the desire to have meaning in life (why would someone contradict themselves and claim simultaneously “my life has no ultimate purpose, it came from an unintelligent blind unguided physical accident that has no care for me or use for me – but I claim to have purpose and meaning”?) – is a far better explanation for why every human seeks and acts with meaning and purpose. Otherwise, why not just act like nothing at all matters?
No – because I can reference the meaning given by God in revelation. Obviously, if God is the creator, then He had meaning and purpose in creation. If Bob or Jane has some meaning – they didn’t create their own lives so they have no idea.Ultimate meaning according to a deity is no different than according to bob or Jane or anyone else you want to reference. So it’s back to just meaning for ourselves.
A
ANV
Guest
Are any other belief systems or opinions a sin? Is being Muslim or a Hindu a sin?
If you don’t believe that gods exist why would such a disbelief be a sin?
Rejecting God would be believing that God exists and rejecting him.
If you don’t believe that gods exist why would such a disbelief be a sin?
Rejecting God would be believing that God exists and rejecting him.
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reggieM
Guest
Good questions.Are any other belief systems or opinions a sin? Is being Muslim or a Hindu a sin?
If you don’t believe that gods exist why would such a disbelief be a sin?
Rejecting God would be believing that God exists and rejecting him.
The obligation we have is to maximize the good we have been given and avoid evil.
When we direct our mind to the Maximum Conceivable Goodness (perfection) we are oriented to what is good. When we praise what is good and hate what is evil, we improve our own being. When we do the opposite, praise evil and hate (ignore, avoid, oppose) what is good, then we hurt ourselves and others. That is what sin is.
The greatest good is God. So, if we love something else more than God, we are harming ourselves and the entire universe - that is what is sinful and evil. If we love God, pray to Him with worship - we become more like Him and bring more good into the universe.
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goout
Guest
No not per se.Are any other belief systems or opinions a sin? Is being Muslim or a Hindu a sin?
It isn’t, necessarily.If you don’t believe that gods exist why would such a disbelief be a sin?
The fact that you reject someone could mean that you don’t believe in them. You don’t trust them, don’t spend time with them, don’t wish the best for them, don’t think they are “true”. Etc…Rejecting God would be believing that God exists and rejecting him.
Or you may know what you reject, and pride has enslaved you to say No".
You have to start with this:
Sin is a chosen act, not a thing.
A hammer is not a sin. Bludgeoning someone to death is.
Atheism is not a sin, it’s a system of belief or an ideology (however loosely organized). Rejecting God is.
We might say something is “sinful”, and that pertains to the particular act that pertains to the particular object in question.
I hope that makes sense.
Sin is an act.
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goout
Guest
To make an observation along these lines:
it seems to me, most of the atheists that are active on these boards may not culpable for the sin of rejecting God, as they do not really understand the very thing they claim to reject. Sin, or at least grave sin, requires a degree of knowledge.
They are parroting what they have learned from others. Or are objecting to false ideas of God which Catholics also object to.
It’s not a sin to object to a cruel and capricious vision of God, or a fundamentalist caricature of God. Catholics object to that too.
it seems to me, most of the atheists that are active on these boards may not culpable for the sin of rejecting God, as they do not really understand the very thing they claim to reject. Sin, or at least grave sin, requires a degree of knowledge.
They are parroting what they have learned from others. Or are objecting to false ideas of God which Catholics also object to.
It’s not a sin to object to a cruel and capricious vision of God, or a fundamentalist caricature of God. Catholics object to that too.
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NonTimendum
Guest
Of course. It is one of the most terrible sins a person can commit. It is also a sin which has many daughters. Obviously there are varying degrees to which a person is responsible for this sin, but in all cases it is horribly sinful. The fifteen-year old who is “rebelling” is not as bad as the adult who is “skeptical” who is not as bad as the academic who proselytizes for atheism, but all of them are in mortal danger. The horror of this sin cannot be overstated.
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quandy57
Guest
Let’s try this again…
Put simply, a sin is an act that in some way hurts your relationship with God. Whether or not you know something is a sin does not change the fact that it is. Someone who rejects God does commit a sin with or without knowledge of the sin, the difference is how responsible they are for that sin. You can commit a sin and not be responsible for the consequences of that sin. There are two categories that we use to group all sins.
Venial Sin: an act that hurts relationship with God in some way
Mortal Sin: an act that hurt’s relationship with God in some way, AND must know it is a sin, AND must be grave matter, AND must commit the act with free will.
The consequences are as follows:
Venial: Hurts relationship with God (Prayer, Act of Contrition, Receiving the Eucharist, Confession, Baptism, etc. will fix this relationship)
Mortal: Severely damages relationship with God (Confession or Baptism will fix this relationship)
Back to the topic…
If you do not believe in God, or do not believe in the correct God, or do not follow God’s will for you is a sin in some way. Can you enter heaven with sin on your soul - no, however, you can enter purgatory, which will cleanse you before you enter heaven.
Therefore, such sins as being a non-believer of the One True God and not following His will for you are often not mortal sins, therefore atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians of all types, etc. can all enter heaven. We are all sinners in some way, not believing in right or wrong and does wrong does not mean you do not sin, it just means you might have lesser consequences than one who does wrong with knowledge of wrong.
Answer: If you do not follow God’s will, your relationship will be affected negatively, therefore a sin has been committed and your consequences will depend on your knowledge, gravity of the sin, and whether or not the sin was committed according to your will.
P.S. Intentional Ignorance makes the sin more grave… you do have to search for God and what He wills for you. But of course, you do have the free will to do what you want, however, where you end up (Heaven, Purgatory then Heaven, or Hell) will depend on your choices.
Put simply, a sin is an act that in some way hurts your relationship with God. Whether or not you know something is a sin does not change the fact that it is. Someone who rejects God does commit a sin with or without knowledge of the sin, the difference is how responsible they are for that sin. You can commit a sin and not be responsible for the consequences of that sin. There are two categories that we use to group all sins.
Venial Sin: an act that hurts relationship with God in some way
Mortal Sin: an act that hurt’s relationship with God in some way, AND must know it is a sin, AND must be grave matter, AND must commit the act with free will.
The consequences are as follows:
Venial: Hurts relationship with God (Prayer, Act of Contrition, Receiving the Eucharist, Confession, Baptism, etc. will fix this relationship)
Mortal: Severely damages relationship with God (Confession or Baptism will fix this relationship)
Back to the topic…
If you do not believe in God, or do not believe in the correct God, or do not follow God’s will for you is a sin in some way. Can you enter heaven with sin on your soul - no, however, you can enter purgatory, which will cleanse you before you enter heaven.
Therefore, such sins as being a non-believer of the One True God and not following His will for you are often not mortal sins, therefore atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians of all types, etc. can all enter heaven. We are all sinners in some way, not believing in right or wrong and does wrong does not mean you do not sin, it just means you might have lesser consequences than one who does wrong with knowledge of wrong.
Answer: If you do not follow God’s will, your relationship will be affected negatively, therefore a sin has been committed and your consequences will depend on your knowledge, gravity of the sin, and whether or not the sin was committed according to your will.
P.S. Intentional Ignorance makes the sin more grave… you do have to search for God and what He wills for you. But of course, you do have the free will to do what you want, however, where you end up (Heaven, Purgatory then Heaven, or Hell) will depend on your choices.
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