Is atheism simply a lack of belief in the supernatural?

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warpspeedpetey

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If that definition completely and wholly describes atheism, than why would one bother to argue it?

after all, if someone claims that they were abducted by aliens, most people would consider them crazy, paranoid, or just plain delusional.

they would shake their head, grin and wonder if he is off his meds. but they surely wouldn’t stand there and argue with him

so, i am asking

why bother to defend a disbelief in another’s delusions?
 
If that definition completely and wholly describes atheism, than why would one bother to argue it?

after all, if someone claims that they were abducted by aliens, most people would consider them crazy, paranoid, or just plain delusional.

they would shake their head, grin and wonder if he is off his meds. but they surely wouldn’t stand there and argue with him

so, i am asking

why bother to defend a disbelief in another’s delusions?
Hi Petey,

People (believers and unbelievers alike) care what other people believe because beliefs motivate behavior. People want other people to behave the way that they want them to behave because other people’s behavior can directly affect us and those we care about.

Empathy and altruism also explains why we care about the beliefs of others. If your great grandmother believes that she is about to be reunited with her dead husband and seems quite happy about it, and her belief has no negative effect on anyone else, there would seem to be no reason to try to free her of her delusion (though I think that generally, such beliefs come with a cost). But if a teenage boy is suffering because he believes that his inability to exert enough self-control to stop masturbating is endangering his eternal soul, then I wold like to free him of this delusion that this is a sin to relieve him of his suffering.

Best,
Leela
 
warpspeed,

Leela might be an exceptional case, arguing against God for purely altruistic reasons and to free others of delusions.

In my experience, however, many atheists argue against God in order to justify their own behavior. Those who behave badly want company, because then it doesn’t seem so bad. And they want to convince themselves and others that what they are doing is right.

“Take away the supernatural and what remains is the unnatural.” – GK Chesteron.
VC
 
Atheism simply means that god(s) are not real. A weak atheist maintains there isn’t enough evidence to know whether gods are real or not. It’s also possible to be atheistic about certain gods and not atheistic about others.

Supernaturalism, or duality, as some might call it still can be practiced. Gods are merely one supernatural concept. Also, pantheists believe the cosmos or universe is a god but that it isn’t supernatural.
 
…they would shake their head, grin and wonder if he is off his meds. but they surely wouldn’t stand there and argue with him…
That depends entirely on the parties involved. Beliefs and behaviors are constantly being selected for.

Two people who both believe they were abducted by aliens might argue as to the nature of the aliens. They might argue about exactly how it happened, what its purpose was, whether the aliens are going to return, what the aliens looked like, where they came from, what exactly was seen, when exactly it happened, what the meaning of it is, etc.

Also, a person can be quite rational except for the fact that belief in alien abductors is part of their beliefs. They may go about their entire lives believing in alien abductions and even expect to be abducted as some point, yet still hold a job, pay taxes, raise a family, have a career, etc.
 
first let me thank you for your post. i am happy to see an interest in the subject.

I agree, empathy and altruism are indeed fine reasons to help another, in fact there are no better reasons.

That said though, i wonder if one then argues with the alien abductee, because of his paranoid delusion. 🙂

if there is no supernatural, then it holds that all forms of suffering are equal.

one may argue the degrees of suffering, but the reason for suffering should be immaterial beyond that.

if one does not address all suffering equally than i am afraid i must reject empathy and altruism as motivation to defend a disbelief in another’s delusion

after all one does not feed the poor, yet pass by the sick

so altruism or empathy cannot be the true motivation to argue with a theist.

so that leaves me to ask “why bother to defend a disbelief in another’s delusions?”
 
why bother to defend a disbelief in another’s delusions?
I’ve observed this question being asked many times over the years; and very often, it is asked with a tinge of scepticism, almost as if the query assumes a certain psychological insight into the atheistic mind. I’d like to pose a certain answer to it that I have rarely seen given, because I consider it an important key to understanding this, and it’s very, very simple.

To begin, let’s bear in mind that in life, there are duties and obligations that we must all adhere to and meet if we wish to have comfort, both financial as well as emotional. For example, many people spend a great deal of years submitting themselves to the curricula of universities, so that they may prepare for a career in some lucrative field of knowledge. I myself, had spent my youth, pushed from behind by my parents, preparing for university; and in university, I spent six years pursuing a Doctor of Pharmacy degree. What motivated me? Primarily, the overwhelming feeling that I have a duty and obligation to fulfill if I wish to live a certain lifestyle.

But even though I have had pharmacology intertwined with my personality, and even though I adore the subject and my profession, I nonetheless find myself needing to engage my mind in subjects and topics for which there is no true benefit aside from personal pleasure. I have become, then, a novice pianist over time; as well as a dabbler in classical drawing, and an amateur historian focusing primarily on the Middle Ages. I began, with my wife, a guild for artists who love and work within traditional forums of expression; those who wish to copy the art of Michelangelo, say, or playwrights inspired by the Bard of Avon. Our little group has something like three dozen persons, none of whom receive even a penny for their art, and all of whom are engaged in careers which have nothing at all to do with it.

Why do I mention these things? Simply to point out something which I hope you don’t find to be too silly; and that is that there are a great deal of people who, in their private lives, away from their careers, require of themselves a level of activity in their interests. They wish to be learning constantly, for that is all that they have known their whole lives, and they wish to improve on and explore their talents and personalities. For some, it may take the form of doing something which is different from their work, using entirely different forms of thinking, so that they may be more ‘rounded’ in their self-actualisation. For others, it may take the form of them engaging in activities which are an extension of their work, and the forms of thinking they know best.

This last group of people, I think, describes a great deal of atheists. Consider three major types of atheist:

(i) The apathetic sort who simply do not believe in the supernatural, as you have said it, who carry on in their normal lives rarely thinking of the matter;
(ii) The theoretical sort who approaches the matter from an intellectual perspective and attempts to constantly understand the matter better;
(iii) The passionate sort who actively attempts to change the society around himself to adhere more precisely with his assumptions.

The second group, the theoretical, is the type I am referring to here. They can be people from all walks of life, but a lot of them happen to be scientists and philosophers. For such people, in their private lives, they may choose to study topics which are an extension of the fact and data-driven logic they have come to accept as the most useful form of thinking. They may do things such as solving complex puzzles, or else, they may choose to become experts in certain complicated questions or debates, such a theism vs. atheism.

I am arguing, therefore, that this type of atheist is as active in these sorts of discussions as they are, because of the following:

(i) The topic requires of them that their natural talent is used, and they derive pleasure from using it;
(ii) They very often will find that their education is able to be used away from their career, and in terms of personal interests or conversation, this colours their decisions of what to pursue or not pursue;
(iii) They are interested in the fact that this debate intersects so many different forms of learning which they are not experts in, such as linguistics or history, and this becomes a catalyst to their further, personal education;
(iv) For these, and other reasons, they simply find the phenomenon of theism to be fascinating, and enjoy what they are able to acquire from studying it.

Of course, this answer is very, very basic, and only describes things in a general manner. Many people may wade out of the waters of religion, simply because of emotional pain or various other reasons; many atheists may be bitter, unhappy people who seek to constantly reduce the joy of others. But in general, I think my observation stands in most cases.

Lastly, simply because one is an atheist and does not discuss the matter, this should not be viewed as being less or more noble than those atheists who do. Let us remember that not everyone has the discipline, desire, or resources to become an expert or near-expert on anything at all.
 
Crowsonsnow,

forgive me, but i am trying to isolate a valid and reasonable explanation as to why an atheist would be motivated to defend his disbelief of another persons delusion.

unfortunately, i am a bit logic dyslexic:) , i dont understand exactly what you mean in relation to my above stated goal.

the definition of atheism in my dictionary is this

Atheism A"the*ism, n. [Cf. F. ath['e]isme. See Atheist.]
  1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or
    supreme intelligent Being.
    [1913 Webster]
 
I’ve observed this question being asked many times over the years; and very often, it is asked with a tinge of scepticism, almost as if the query assumes a certain psychological insight into the atheistic mind.
My socratic irony sense is tingling, too. Petey, can you just tell us what you think the real reason that atheists would bother with the “delusion” of theists?

Best,
Leela
 
InNomineDomini,

i cannot pretend to to firmly grasp, what you mean.

i think, that you might mean that pleasure of argumentation, or the knowledge gained are the motivation to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion…i think

does one derive pleasure from arguing with an alien abductee? no, indeed for most it would be a singularly boring conversation. imagine it

“i was probed!”
“no you weren’t”"
“yes i was!”
“no you weren’t”🙂

by the same token, no one takes classes at the insane asylum they can only tell you about their insanity.

so i must reject those arguments as reasonable motivations to argue with the delusional.

if there is no supernatural than all forms of delusion must be, of necessity, equal

please reply with a little less wordsmithery, im just a big dumb redneck, and your stretching my mind into uncomfortable positions:)
 
Crowsonsnow,

forgive me, but i am trying to isolate a valid and reasonable explanation as to why an atheist would be motivated to defend his disbelief of another persons delusion.

unfortunately, i am a bit logic dyslexic:) , i dont understand exactly what you mean in relation to my above stated goal.

the definition of atheism in my dictionary is this

Atheism A"the*ism, n. [Cf. F. ath['e]isme. See Atheist.]
  1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or
    supreme intelligent Being.
    [1913 Webster]
I don’t think theists are delusional. Theism is simply cultural. I find the phenomenon of belief in gods fascinating, however, even though I see it simply as institutionalized superstition. We are all superstitious to some degree. It’s been selected for.

I feel as if I am stepping back in time whenever I get into these conversations. When I find myself in the occasional place where theistic groups sing songs and make offerings to these gods I understand that I am observing an ancient ritual, and in those settings I feel invisible.

Dictionaries aren’t the authoritative last words on anything. They’re tools to aid one’s understanding.

I wouldn’t argue with a drunk, but chatting with other humans who think gods are real is not chatting with drunks or delusional people. I think my brain is a bit different than a theist’s brain. It must be, and I think we’ll eventually understand those differences, perhaps even offering people the option to believe gods are real or not. Who knows?
 
Leela,
Code:
     No i cant, first i don't really know.
i have seen others opinions and i think they are mostly just emotional responses to having their faith questioned.

When i first arrived i was, admittedly, startled to find so many atheists hanging out to argue on a nominally Catholic board.(which is completely their right to do)

that definitely stirred my curiosity. I dont know what the motivation to argue with theists, would be.

i dont believe in alien abduction either, but i dont go to area 51 to argue the point.

which leads me back to the idea of motivation

yes, your socratic sense may be tingling.

my understanding is that in general atheists believe only in Reason, which is how they become atheists (a generalization)

so no other method than reasoning would be acceptable to that crowd.

So i see that they must also have a reasonable, logical motivation to argue. otherwise they wouldn’t do it.

after all they don’t believe the existence of a G-d is reasonable, so they don’t believe.

so i seek that reasonable, logical motivation which must exist.

But please don’t take it personally, this is merely an exercise in reasoning.
 
crowsonsnow,

that is an interesting post. i refer to a dictionary not as authoritative but as a common page for us to work from, in that spirit i offer the definition of delusion as such.

That which is falsely or delusively believed or
propagated; false belief; error in belief.
[1913 Webster]

If one is an atheist, lacking a belief in G-d they must believe that theists hold such a belief in error, that it is a false belief, ergo theists must be delusional.

nor can one equate the state of being drunk i.e. with a delusional belief.

they are two very different things.

however let me point out that word games and sophistry do not further the cause of Rationalism.

So let us attend strictly to the problem of a reasonable, logical motivation to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion.

let us use reason only, not emotion:)
 
i cannot pretend to to firmly grasp, what you mean.

i think, that you might mean that pleasure of argumentation, or the knowledge gained are the motivation to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion…i think

does one derive pleasure from arguing with an alien abductee?
There are lots of theists who ask the question you asked in your original post, because they feel it is a valid segway into the following assumption:

*Every human being, in some capacity, ultimately believes in God; and those who say they don’t, are either lying or are unaware of their belief. Because of this, atheism is a sort of farce, and people who ardently defend it, do so because they are being secretly prompted towards belief in God.

*I disagree with this sort of speculation, because I feel it is ultimately founded on a claim to knowledge of all men’s hearts, which I in turn think is a terribly unfounded claim. Some may argue for this from the position of theology, saying that God created man with a desire to know and search for Him. I think it is unfair to take this to such an extent, that you are positioning yourself into a certain seat of judgement as to the final destination of a man’s soul; that is, that you are stating that those who find belief in God unreasonable, are denying their own conscience, and that they therefore will be thrown into darkness after death.

Instead, I try to approach this from a more prosaic perspective: atheists enjoy the discussion of theism vs. atheism, because they see within it a worthwhile hobby. I ascribe no negative motivation to the desire to discuss this, unless we are speaking of a specific individual in which this is clear.

I understand your question like this:

If you don’t believe in something, why would you want to defend your position?

*If you think someone is mistaken in their view, why would you wish to reproach them?

If you hold that belief in God is a certain delusion, why would you want to convince the person of their delusion?

*…and I simply cannot see why those questions should be asked without considering very simple, perfectly mundane answers to them.

But I have so far given reasons for why I think an atheist is attracted to the theism vs. atheism debate; I have spoken from their perspective as individuals enjoying a certain hobby in their spare time. Why they choose to argue their points is another matter, one I could explain like this:
  • In general, people have an image in their minds of what an ideal society looks like, and have various opinions that are based on this image.
  • There are a great deal of people who view society as being most fair, most productive, and most safe, if the majority of people in that society have intelligent minds that are trained to approach life from the perspective of reason, logic, evidence, and education.
  • Such people, very often, will find society does not conform to their ideal in regard to the previous point.
  • They then have a certain desire to influence others around them in such a way, that their ideal image might become fulfilled.
But what I have just mentioned, I feel, is a rare form of atheist: a certain altruistic variety. I don’t believe that most have noble ideals they submit to; they simply enjoy the subject on a personal level.

Lastly, I don’t pay much attention to the word ‘delusion’ in all of this. I feel that those atheists who argue from that position, do so not from the point of view of psychiatry, so much as they borrow terms from psychiatry for the purpose of creating an analogy of their thought. Of course, this is simply an opinion; some might actually pretend to be experts of psychiatry, and some might be Medical Doctors in that field. This is not unlike certain environmentalists who say that humans are a parasite to the earth, even though, in strict biological terms, this is impossible, because humans do not exist in a symbiotic relationship to the earth around them.
 
Leela,
Code:
     No i cant, first i don't really know.
i have seen others opinions and i think they are mostly just emotional responses to having their faith questioned.

**When i first arrived i was, admittedly, startled to find so many atheists hanging out to argue on a nominally Catholic board.(which is completely their right to do)

that definitely stirred my curiosity. I dont know what the motivation to argue with theists, would be.**

i dont believe in alien abduction either, but i dont go to area 51 to argue the point.

which leads me back to the idea of motivation

yes, your socratic sense may be tingling.

my understanding is that in general atheists believe only in Reason, which is how they become atheists (a generalization)

so no other method than reasoning would be acceptable to that crowd.

So i see that they must also have a reasonable, logical motivation to argue. otherwise they wouldn’t do it.

after all they don’t believe the existence of a G-d is reasonable, so they don’t believe.

so i seek that reasonable, logical motivation which must exist.

But please don’t take it personally, this is merely an exercise in reasoning.
many christians have asked the question as to why
non-believers care to argue (basically) with believers.

the answer: “dude, have you looked at the world lately? have you read an ounce of history?”
 
Atheism is a lack of faith in God. Simply put.

I can be atheistic when i’m in sin. After all, sin disconnects one from God.
 
many christians have asked the question as to why
non-believers care to argue (basically) with believers.

the answer: “dude, have you looked at the world lately? have you read an ounce of history?”
Why do you not believe in the shift-key? 🙂

Have you looked at the world lately?

Have you read a book, ever?

:shamrock2:
 
I am thankful for the posts,

in response to InNomineDomini,

you seem to project on me motives that others have had. understandable, but not reasonable. I would point out that i have not ascribed any motive to others. please give me the same courtesy.

i only desire to isolate a reasonable and logical motive to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion. it seems as though it is a unique behavior, not practiced elsewhere in similar situations.

i am not looking for opinion, or conjecture. I am using Reason alone, the chosen method by which people explore these ideas.

the fact that my intelligence, education, motive or typing ability are being questioned, rather than my reasoning tells me that i am hitting a sore point.

i don’t care where the reasoning leads, i don’t have a pony in this race.

nor have i asserted any opinion i cannot base on reasoning.

so i still wonder, what is the motivation to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion?
 
I am thankful for the posts,

in response to InNomineDomini,

you seem to project on me motives that others have had. understandable, but not reasonable. I would point out that i have not ascribed any motive to others. please give me the same courtesy.

i only desire to isolate a reasonable and logical motive to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion. it seems as though it is a unique behavior, not practiced elsewhere in similar situations.

i am not looking for opinion, or conjecture. I am using Reason alone, the chosen method by which people explore these ideas.

the fact that my intelligence, education, motive or typing ability are being questioned, rather than my reasoning tells me that i am hitting a sore point.

i don’t care where the reasoning leads, i don’t have a pony in this race.

nor have i asserted any opinion i cannot base on reasoning.

so i still wonder, what is the motivation to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion?
Well if the delusion is a shared delusion, then both sufferers are motivated by the common ground they find themselves on.
 
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