Is atheism simply a lack of belief in the supernatural?

[warpspeedpetey]

true my friend,

but in this unfortunate case the “delusions” so to speak, are mutually exclusive.

all humanity can fall under the broad headings of atheist or theist.

do you have a logical reason that answers my question?

 

[SimonArizona]

true my friend,

but in this unfortunate case the “delusions” so to speak, are mutually exclusive.

all humanity can fall under the broad headings of atheist or theist.

do you have a logical reason that answers my question?

Because the bible says so! Just kidding. I was raised atheist so I understand perfectly. I’ve written long papers on all this. What was your question again? I answered; the motivation for defending anothers delusion is because it is shared, so the one defending his bedfellow’s delusion is really defending his own delusion.

I’d say all humanity falls under 3 categories 1.Atheist, 2.Theist, 3. Unsure(agnostic) or simply don’t care.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

ok, ill go with three then

Do you think any one will care to debate the question?
its seems they all left

 

[ateista]

Well, I am still in the packaging mode for our trip and since I woke up pretty early, I might as well chime in.

Yes, atheism is simply a lack of belief in any god or deity, where god or deity is something “supernatural”.

Now, the word “supernatrual” is just a fancy euphemism for “unnatural” - regardless what Chesterton said. The opposite or negation of “natural” is “unnatural”. The unnatural could be subdivided into two more categories: supernatural and subnatural. But no one uses the concept of “sub”-natural. Therefore unnatural and supernatural are synonyms.

Now the other question presented, why should anyone bother to argue with the adherents of a delusion?

Let’s categorize delusions. The following categories are not necessarily mutually exclusive, one particular delusion may belong to more than one of them. Nor is this categorization is intended to be complete. Just a few from the top of my head.

Category #1: active and passive delusions. The example of “alien abductees” is a passive one, religion is an active one. Religions tend to propagate themselves, most of them actively attempt to convert the “unbelievers”. There is nothing wrong with that per se, of course. The method could be questionable.

Category #2: tolerant and intolerant delusions. Most religions pay lip service to tolerance, but they don’t practice it. There is an ungoing theme of talking about the “Truth”, and asserting that only Catholics have access to the “whole Truth”, though some other Christian denominations may have access to some “partial Truth”. Believing that one has access to the “whole Truth” does not promote tolerance - on the very contrary. If one believes that one has access to the “Truth” (whatever that may be) it is natural to convince others about the errors of their ways.

Category #3: dangerous, neutral or beneficial delusions. Here I am going to poke into a hornet’s nest. There are some attributes of religions, which are beneficial - no doubt about it. It promotes a sense of belonging to a community, It gives one inner peace. It allows coping with disasters. These are all positive, beneficial attributes - though one does not need to be religious to experience these states of mind.

But there are others. Christianity in general has a very twisted and “warped” (sorry about the pun, buddy ) view of sexuality. I rarely ever go to the forum of “Moral Theology”, because I find it depressing to the extreme. Thread after thread deals with poor teenagers suffering from guilt, because they give in to the very natural desire to explore their sexuality and “succumb” to masturbation. To forbid such a natural act and instill tremendous guilt over it is highly dangerous to the kids involved. To assert that “abstinence” is “moral” and the opposite is sinful is simply horrible.

Then comes the view that sex is “sinful” if not practised toward procreation, and setting up all sorts of acceptable and “forbidden” methods of the most private activity is ridiculous. Whatever two consenting adults do in the privacy of their home is their business. A sub-part of this highly repressive and intolerant feature is the condemnation of homosexuality.

So, based upon this scatchy set of categorizations, Christianity is active, intolerant and has some beneficial and harmful aspects to it. I am sure most will not agree with anything I said about the harmful aspects, but they cannot deny (of course they will!) the highly dangerous result of messing with the minds of children and teenagers. The examples are numerous where poor teenagers will commit suicide over the guilt they feel about practising their sexuality in a “forbidden” way - especially when it comes to homosexual tendencies.

Finally, even if all the aspects of Christianity were beneficial, its value would be downgraded by the fact that it is a “command” based system. Something is not “virtuous” unless it is subjugated to the ultimate commanding “boss”. Time after time it was asserted that good works, in and by themselves are irrelevant unless they are made for the glory of God.

 

[Leela]

I’d say all humanity falls under 3 categories 1.Atheist, 2.Theist, 3. Unsure(agnostic) or simply don’t care.

I think these categories beg the question. The supposition is that there is a God that can either be believed in or not or that a decision is somehow fundamentally forced on us as sentient beings or that these categories say something fundamental about people. I don’t think this is a question that most people really give much thought to or has much pragmatic value.

Best,
Leela

 

[Verbum_Caro]

ateista,

While I don’t think we need to address the majority of your post, as it stands on its own (and walks!), I did want to comment that

The examples are numerous where poor teenagers will commit suicide over the guilt they feel about practising their sexuality in a “forbidden” way - especially when it comes to homosexual tendencies.

spurs one to ask about the examples of poor teenagers who commit suicide spurred on by atheistic ideas.

VC

P.S. Are you aware that you let the bright’s secret password and rallying cry slip out?
atiesta:

Whatever two consenting adults do in the privacy of their home is their business.

Oh oh! They might raise your dues.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

ateista,

funny side story, my friends and i got in an argument last night about who wore the best bib overalls. my buddy said " i only wear Key brand overalls" like his nose was stuck up in the air so high it almost touched the brim of his John Deere hat. i wonder if at some point i am going to cross over the event horizon of some supermassive redneck black hole and just get sucked up the tailpipe of a combine.

Unfortunately it does show mans attachment to materialism, as though whatever particular collection of atoms he trades them little green slips of paper for has something to do with who or what he is.

in that spirit have you seen the tv commercials where G. Gordon Liddy says in his most competent voice “gold has never been worth zero” as he holds up a 5 oz chunk?
heck, gold aint never been worth nothing, you caint eat it, it caint keep you warm, and it aint medicine for nothing. in fact its only valuable to chumps impressed with bright and shiny objects.

i agree that delusions can be active and passive tolerant or intolerant, dangerous, neutral or beneficial.

but as we discussed on another thread

in a secular society such as we and the one most posters probably reside in there are still more efficient means to carry out the defense of ones disbelief, namely the courts and the legislatures.

So as motivation for a defense of ones disbelief to a theist or a group of theists such as this forum it doesn’t pass muster.

So i am still left to ask, why does one bother to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion?

you are right, i cannot agree on the harmful sexual effects of faith

Sexual activity has many bad consequences physical, spiritual, and psychological when practiced apart from its intended purposes

on the other side of that equation: there are no ill effects from sexual activities that are practiced in line with its intended purposes. (as stated by the church)

that said, the sexual urge, which everyone experiences, is chemically driven, it is glandular in nature. so it is resistible, not easily i admit but possible. many of us practice chastity as a matter of self discipline. it can be done, everybody can do it if they are willing to.

so it begs the question who is the Captain of this Ship? me or my glands?

Indeed my friend it is me, it is me.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Finally, even if all the aspects of Christianity were beneficial, its value would be downgraded by the fact that it is a “command” based system. Something is not “virtuous” unless it is subjugated to the ultimate commanding “boss”. Time after time it was asserted that good works, in and by themselves are irrelevant unless they are made for the glory of God.

sorry i missed this part here,

Why is a command based system bad?, a good deed is a good deed relative to the deeds doers beliefs

I dont think of G-d as a Boss

think of him as the buddy you had back in the war (whatever war that might be)

the one who threw himself on a grenade, so you could live. (the Sacrifice on the Cross)

then get mad at yourself because you were the one who threw the grenade, (you sinned, not Him)

He told you many times not to throw grenades because they can blow up in your face (you were told sin is harmful)

but you didnt want to be told what to do (the desire for self determination at all costs)(also known as self love)

so you threw it anyway (you exercised your free will to sin)

then to make matters worse, before He died He looked up at you from His blasted and broken body and told you He loves you, His brother in arms, and not to worry about it, you were worth the cost
(Salvation through His Sacrifice)

if you accept this Sacrifice you are forever, His slave, you can never repay this debt

if you dont accept this you are a slave to your own desires and wants

for me it is more noble to serve He who loved me enough to take the death that i earned.

Not to serve the me whose most noble intention is gratification of my desires, whatever they may be,

at least thats one way i like to think about my Him

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I think these categories beg the question. The supposition is that there is a God that can either be believed in or not or that a decision is somehow fundamentally forced on us as sentient beings or that these categories say something fundamental about people. I don’t think this is a question that most people really give much thought to or has much pragmatic value.

Best,
Leela

People from the earliest times have wondered where we came from and why,it is as fundamental to the human condition as breathing

Indeed everyone i know has some kind of opinion on the matter of faith.

frankly with out questioning our origins or even that there might be a reason for our existence nothing else that we know of would have a pragmatic value.

not to begin debating the existence of the supernatural, but without it i have a hard time seeing that anything has intrinsic value

in the case of no supernatural, all collections of atoms would have the same objective value, which is none.

value would be entirely subjective, almost random, with no structure, which is clearly not reflected in the known universe, there are objective structures, galaxies, planets, my granmas car etc

 

[Sideline]

after all one does not feed the poor, yet pass by the sick

Well, yes they do actually. I met a woman who worked tirelessly to help those who suffered from Lupus, but never gave a cent to diabetes research (and oddly enough, I met another woman who was the exact opposite in her charitable ambitions). I knew a man who ran a soup kitchen for 12 years, but he didn’t have so much as a basic first aid certificate. If someone were to walk in to his kitchen feeling ill, he would send them right back out. I also met some one who worked at a free health clinic, but if you said you were starving he wouldn’t have thought it was his problem.

Welcome to the human race, it might not be pretty, but it is the only race in town.

so that leaves me to ask “why bother to defend a disbelief in another’s delusions?”

I first posted on this board not to attack anyone, but because I was curious about something. Within minutes, I read posts saying that atheists were stupid, ignorant, immoral, biased, intellectual puppets of former atheists, (If all atheists puppet another atheist, wouldn’t there have to be an all-powerful “prime atheist”? I wonder.), belligerent, grasping, fearful, mean spirited.

I am missing a few, but those were the ones I read within a few minutes. So, let me think, why would I bother defending myself?

But for the record, I also do try and talk people out of spending stupid amounts of money on homoeopathic remedies, magnet therapy, tarot readings, astrology books, books on aligning their chi, feng shui, and just about any book that has “unlimited”, “optimum” or “total” in the title. I generally try and get anyone, no matter what their beliefs, to explain their reasons for holding on to those beliefs. I don’t go picking on Christians.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Well, yes they do actually. I met a woman who worked tirelessly to help those who suffered from Lupus, but never gave a cent to diabetes research (and oddly enough, I met another woman who was the exact opposite in her charitable ambitions). I knew a man who ran a soup kitchen for 12 years, but he didn’t have so much as a basic first aid certificate. If someone were to walk in to his kitchen feeling ill, he would send them right back out. I also met some one who worked at a free health clinic, but if you said you were starving he wouldn’t have thought it was his problem.

Welcome to the human race, it might not be pretty, but it is the only race in town.

metaphor
metaphor met"a*phor (m[e^]t".a]*f^o]r or
m[e^]t".a]*f~e]r), n. [F. m['e]taphore, L. metaphora, fr.
Gr. metafora, fr. metaferein to carry over, transfer; meta beyond, over + ferein to bring, bear.] (Rhet.)
The transference of the relation between one set of objects
to another set for the purpose of brief explanation; a
compressed simile; e. g., the ship plows the sea. --Abbott &
Seeley. “All the world’s a stage.” --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

im sorry you were treated that way, when people run out of reason they either attack or run away, its weak minded and shameful, but welcome to humanity as you say

you might defend yourself from a crazy persons verbal attacks, but that is not the same as defending your disbelief in another’s delusion, because if they didn’t attack you wouldn’t have defended

after all if some crazy guy on the corner yells an insult at you do you roll down the window and have a long argument about the nature of his religion, or do you just flip him off and drive away? most people would just drive away

so i cant see that as a reasonable, logical motivation to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion

I am missing a few, but those were the ones I read within a few minutes. So, let me think, why would I bother defending myself?
tt
But for the record, I also do try and talk people out of spending stupid amounts of money on homoeopathic remedies, magnet therapy, tarot readings, astrology books, books on aligning their chi, feng shui, and just about any book that has “unlimited”, “optimum” or “total” in the title. I generally try and get anyone, no matter what their beliefs, to explain their reasons for holding on to those beliefs. I don’t go picking on Christians.

that is an admirable tact to take but not relevant to the issue of motivation to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion

thanks for your post though

sorry about the qoutes i had some problems but im sure you can sort them out

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I first posted on this board not to attack anyone, but because I was curious about something. Within minutes, I read posts saying that atheists were stupid, ignorant, immoral, biased, intellectual puppets of former atheists, (If all atheists puppet another atheist, wouldn’t there have to be an all-powerful “prime atheist”? I wonder.), belligerent, grasping, fearful, mean spirited.

Sideline,

It might be a bit late, and not very satisfying by proxy, but I’m sorry that you’ve experienced the above.

VC

 

[ateista]

ateista,

While I don’t think we need to address the majority of your post, as it stands on its own (and walks!), I did want to comment that spurs one to ask about the examples of poor teenagers who commit suicide spurred on by atheistic ideas.

If you could give me an example, please? Unfortunately the facts I quoted are out there.

P.S. Are you aware that you let the bright’s secret password and rallying cry slip out?

Sorry, I don’t understand this.

 

[Sideline]

you might defend yourself from a crazy persons verbal attacks, but that is not the same as defending your disbelief in another’s delusion, because if they didn’t attack you wouldn’t have defended

after all if some crazy guy on the corner yells an insult at you do you roll down the window and have a long argument about the nature of his religion, or do you just flip him off and drive away? most people would just drive away

so i cant see that as a reasonable, logical motivation to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion

That’s all very well and good, but to use your language, I live in Crazy Town. The Mayor, Chief of Police, 9 out of 12 aldermen, the Premier, the Prime Minister, the Lieutenant Governor, the Queen, Governor General, all of the cabinet members in both the legislature and parliament, most of the teachers, doctors, lawyers, judges, police officers, my boss, my boss’ biggest clients, my mother, my father, my girlfriend, and my girlfriend’s mother believe in what you call “delusions”.

So… yeah… I defend my beliefs. Sorry if that doesn’t seem logical to you.

that is an admirable tact to take but not relevant to the issue of motivation to defend ones disbelief in another’s delusion

Your argument was that a person who defended their position against one set of delusions should defend themselves against all of them. That was your argument, and now you say that my response that I do do that is irrelevant. Interesting.

 

[Sideline]

Sideline,

It might be a bit late, and not very satisfying by proxy, but I’m sorry that you’ve experienced the above.

VC

Thank-you.

It isn’t satisfying, but it is appreciated.

All the best.

 

[Leela]

People from the earliest times have wondered where we came from and why,it is as fundamental to the human condition as breathing

Hi Petey,

I disagree. People don’t start asking questions about meaning and purpose until more fundamental needs like breathing, food, and shelter are met. Even so, most people are not all that philosphical, and may have opinions on the subject, but probably haven’t given the issues much thought.

frankly with out questioning our origins or even that there might be a reason for our existence nothing else that we know of would have a pragmatic value.

Would a rose not smell as sweet? Would food taste bland? Would we love our children any less? Of course, not.

Best,
Leela

 

[ateista]

in a secular society such as we and the one most posters probably reside in there are still more efficient means to carry out the defense of ones disbelief, namely the courts and the legislatures.

So as motivation for a defense of ones disbelief to a theist or a group of theists such as this forum it doesn’t pass muster.

Well, I think that going to the grassroots is more effective. I am sure you are aware that the road of legislations is bumpy and slow.

In South Carolina a few years ago there was an atheist (Herb Silverman was his name), who ran for the post of the governor. He was not qualified, because back then everyone who did not profess a belief in some kind of a deity was excluded from the possibility of running for public office, or even become a notary public. True, there was a referendum, and the consitution was changed. That story supports you suggestion.

Still there are states which have similar laws on the books. So we can conclude that there is quite a strong resistence to accept atheists as “fellow citizens”. I want to remind you of former president Bush Sr., who explicitly said that “atheists cannot be considered patriots, and maybe they should not even be citizens”.

So, participating on boards like this at least we might alleviate the misconceptions about atheism in general. At least, I tried, and maybe I had a few small successes. That is yet another reason why to participate.

you are right, i cannot agree on the harmful sexual effects of faith

That is part of the “delusion”

Sexual activity has many bad consequences physical, spiritual, and psychological when practiced apart from its intended purposes

I am not aware of the “intended purposes”. In humans and the great apes the cycle of the estrus is separated from the possibility of sexual activities. Other animals cannot have sex without the estrus. For them, sex is really about one thing: procreation. Not for us and not for the great apes. Are you aware that approximately 5% of all sexual activities is aimed at procreation? The other 95% is aimed only and solely to experience the pleasure involved.

on the other side of that equation: there are no ill effects from sexual activities that are practiced in line with its intended purposes. (as stated by the church)

Sorry. The examples of serious nervous breakdowns in teens who instinctively are attracted to the same sex are not figments of my imagination. The examples on the Moral Theology thread where those poor teens suffer from guilt over masturbation are very real.

that said, the sexual urge, which everyone experiences, is chemically driven, it is glandular in nature. so it is resistible, not easily i admit but possible. many of us practice chastity as a matter of self discipline. it can be done, everybody can do it if they are willing to.

Yes, it can be done. That reminds me of an old joke from the communist regime where I grew up: “Question: is it possible to build communism in Switzerland? Answer, yes it is possible, but should one do it?”

so it begs the question who is the Captain of this Ship? me or my glands?

Indeed my friend it is me, it is me.

True, and if it is your desire, more power to you. But others can and do have different opinion. And let’s respect them.

 

[RobbyS]

Hi Petey,

People (believers and unbelievers alike) care what other people believe because beliefs motivate behavior. People want other people to behave the way that they want them to behave because other people’s behavior can directly affect us and those we care about.

Empathy and altruism also explains why we care about the beliefs of others. If your great grandmother believes that she is about to be reunited with her dead husband and seems quite happy about it, and her belief has no negative effect on anyone else, there would seem to be no reason to try to free her of her delusion (though I think that generally, such beliefs come with a cost). But if a teenage boy is suffering because he believes that his inability to exert enough self-control to stop masturbating is endangering his eternal soul, then I wold like to free him of this delusion that this is a sin to relieve him of his suffering.

Best,
Leela

You are also telling him, that push come to shove, he is not far removed from a chimp. who feels no shame in masturbation. A caution is that many mentally handicapped people behave this way. Therefore such behavior shows a lack of rationality,or self-awareness, which even an atheist recognizes as a hallmark of humanity. As for the boy, the rule is that masturbation is a practice that only makes sexual frustration worse. Maybe cold showers are better after all.

 

[Leela]

You are also telling him, that push come to shove, he is not far removed from a chimp. who feels no shame in masturbation. A caution is that many mentally handicapped people behave this way. Therefore such behavior shows a lack of rationality,or self-awareness, which even an atheist recognizes as a hallmark of humanity. As for the boy, the rule is that masturbation is a practice that only makes sexual frustration worse. Maybe cold showers are better after all.

Hi Robby,

Should people not eat or sleep because monkeys eat and sleep? We are clearly different from animals, but must we go out of our way to prove it not doing anything that monkeys do or not doing anything that mentally handicapped people do?

best,
Leela

 

[davidv]

Hi Robby,

Should people not eat or sleep because monkeys eat and sleep? We are clearly different from animals, but must we go out of our way to prove it not doing anything that monkeys do or not doing anything that mentally handicapped people do?

best,
Leela

Apples and oranges. Can you name anyone who has died as the direct result of not having sex?