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EENS
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Is Baptism necessary for salvation?
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Dan-Man916
Guest
§ 4. The Necessity of Baptism
The Council of Trent declared against the Reformers, whose idea of justification led them to deny it, the necessity of Baptism for salvation: Si quis dixerit, baptismum liberum esse, hoc est non necessarium ad salutem, A.S. D 861. C£ D 791. As to the moment of the beginning of the baptismal obligation, the Council of Trent declared that after the promulgation of the Gospel (post Evangelium promulgatum) there could be no justification without Baptism or the desire for the same. D 796. The necessity of Baptism for salvation is, according to John 3, *5 *and Mk. 16, 16, a necessity of means (necessitas medii), and, according to Mt. 28, 19, also a necessity of precept (necessitas praecepti). The necessity of means docs not derive from the intrinsic nature of the Sacrament itself, but from the designation of Baptism as an indispensable means of salvation by a positive ordinance of God. In special circumstances the actual use of the prescribed means can be dispensed with (hypothetical necessity).
Tradition, in view of John 3, 5, strongly stresses the necessity of Baptism for salvation. Tertullian, invoking these words, observes: “It is determined by law that nobody can be saved without baptism” (De bapt. IZ, I). Cf. Pastor Hermae, Sim. IX 16.
a) Baptism of desire (Baptismus flaminis sive Spiritus Sancti)
Baptism of desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism (votum baptismi) associated with perfect contrition (contrition based on charity).
The Council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not
possible II without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the same … (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto). D 796. Cf. D 847, 388, 413.
According to the teaching of Holy Writ, perfect love possesses justifying power. Luke 7, 47: “Many sins are forgiven her because she hath loved much.” John 14, 21: “He that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.” Luke 23, 43: “This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise.”
Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Tan books, 4th ed. pg 356
- Necessity of Baptism for Salvation
Code:
without exception, for salvation. *(De fide.)*Tradition, in view of John 3, 5, strongly stresses the necessity of Baptism for salvation. Tertullian, invoking these words, observes: “It is determined by law that nobody can be saved without baptism” (De bapt. IZ, I). Cf. Pastor Hermae, Sim. IX 16.
- Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism
Code:
by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. *(Sent. fidei prox.)*Baptism of desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism (votum baptismi) associated with perfect contrition (contrition based on charity).
The Council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not
possible II without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the same … (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto). D 796. Cf. D 847, 388, 413.
According to the teaching of Holy Writ, perfect love possesses justifying power. Luke 7, 47: “Many sins are forgiven her because she hath loved much.” John 14, 21: “He that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.” Luke 23, 43: “This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise.”
Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Tan books, 4th ed. pg 356
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squirt
Guest
I answered yes, where baptism includes ‘baptism by desire.’
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Trad_Catholic
Guest
Does that not seem to you like a glaring error? “Baptism by water is… necessary for all men WITHOUT EXCEPTION.” (DE FIDE)
Then we see later on “substitutes”… if something is “necessary without exception,” then there are NO substitutes…
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Dan-Man916
Guest
St Thomas Aquinas Summa
Part 3, Question 66, Article 11
Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described—viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?
Objection 1: It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Eph. 4:5): “One Faith, one Baptism.” Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.
Objection 2: Further, Baptism is a sacrament, as we have made clear above (Question [65], Article [1]). Now none but Baptism of Water is a sacrament. Therefore we should not reckon two other Baptisms.
Objection 3: Further, Damascene (De Fide Orth. iv) distinguishes several other kinds of Baptism. Therefore we should admit more than three Baptisms.
On the contrary, on Heb. 6:2, “Of the doctrine of Baptisms,” the gloss says: “He uses the plural, because there is Baptism of Water, of Repentance, and of Blood.”
I answer that, As stated above (Question [62], Article [5]), Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ’s Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ’s Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apoc. 7:14): “These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Is. 4:4): “If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.” Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): “The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: ‘Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise’ that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable.”
Part 3, Question 66, Article 11
Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described—viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?
Objection 1: It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Eph. 4:5): “One Faith, one Baptism.” Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.
Objection 2: Further, Baptism is a sacrament, as we have made clear above (Question [65], Article [1]). Now none but Baptism of Water is a sacrament. Therefore we should not reckon two other Baptisms.
Objection 3: Further, Damascene (De Fide Orth. iv) distinguishes several other kinds of Baptism. Therefore we should admit more than three Baptisms.
On the contrary, on Heb. 6:2, “Of the doctrine of Baptisms,” the gloss says: “He uses the plural, because there is Baptism of Water, of Repentance, and of Blood.”
I answer that, As stated above (Question [62], Article [5]), Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ’s Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ’s Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apoc. 7:14): “These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Is. 4:4): “If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.” Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): “The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: ‘Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise’ that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable.”
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Dan-Man916
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Baltimore Catechism #3
**Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire? **
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.
**Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood? **
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood for the faith of Christ.
**Q. 652. What is the baptism of blood most commonly called? **
A. The baptism of blood is most commonly called martyrdom, and those who receive it are called martyrs. It is the death one patiently suffers from the enemies of our religion, rather than give up Catholic faith or virtue. We must not seek martyrdom, though we must endure it when it comes.
**Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? **
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible toreceive the Baptism of water.
**Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water? **
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.
**Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire? **
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.
**Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood? **
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood for the faith of Christ.
**Q. 652. What is the baptism of blood most commonly called? **
A. The baptism of blood is most commonly called martyrdom, and those who receive it are called martyrs. It is the death one patiently suffers from the enemies of our religion, rather than give up Catholic faith or virtue. We must not seek martyrdom, though we must endure it when it comes.
**Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? **
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible toreceive the Baptism of water.
**Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water? **
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.
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Dan-Man916
Guest
that should just about properly explain it.
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Dan-Man916
Guest
I should also add these in from Aquinas summa on the same subject (these got truncated due to space limitations here):
Reply to Objection 1: **The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ’s Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.
** Reply to Objection 2: As stated above (Question [60], Article [1]), a sacrament is a kind of sign. The other two, however, are like the Baptism of Water, not, indeed, in the nature of sign, but in the baptismal effect. Consequently they are not sacraments.
Reply to Objection 3: Damascene enumerates certain figurative Baptisms. For instance, “the Deluge” was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of the salvation of the faithful in the Church; since then “a few . . . souls were saved in the ark [Vulg.: ‘by water’],” according to 1 Pt. 3:20. He also mentions “the crossing of the Red Sea”: which was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of our delivery from the bondage of sin; hence the Apostle says (1 Cor. 10:2) that “all . . . were baptized in the cloud and in the sea.” And again he mentions “the various washings which were customary under the Old Law,” which were figures of our Baptism, as to the cleansing from sins: also “the Baptism of John,” which prepared the way for our Baptism.
Reply to Objection 1: **The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ’s Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.
** Reply to Objection 2: As stated above (Question [60], Article [1]), a sacrament is a kind of sign. The other two, however, are like the Baptism of Water, not, indeed, in the nature of sign, but in the baptismal effect. Consequently they are not sacraments.
Reply to Objection 3: Damascene enumerates certain figurative Baptisms. For instance, “the Deluge” was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of the salvation of the faithful in the Church; since then “a few . . . souls were saved in the ark [Vulg.: ‘by water’],” according to 1 Pt. 3:20. He also mentions “the crossing of the Red Sea”: which was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of our delivery from the bondage of sin; hence the Apostle says (1 Cor. 10:2) that “all . . . were baptized in the cloud and in the sea.” And again he mentions “the various washings which were customary under the Old Law,” which were figures of our Baptism, as to the cleansing from sins: also “the Baptism of John,” which prepared the way for our Baptism.
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itsjustdave1988
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Dan-Man916,
Well done http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
Trad_Catholic,
You said:
For example, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that the Incarnation was necessary for the restoration of the human race, but note the distinction he makes with regard to the ways in which something can be said to be “necessary”…
Well done http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
Trad_Catholic,
You said:
I suggest that the word “necessary” has a meaning now that may at times be understood in conflict with how it was understood centuries ago.
For example, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that the Incarnation was necessary for the restoration of the human race, but note the distinction he makes with regard to the ways in which something can be said to be “necessary”…
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carol_marie
Guest
Two questions… what about the thief on the cross… Jesus said because he believed he would be with Him in Paradise - he wasn’t baptized. #2 I’ve miscarried six babies. None were baptized obviously… are you saying they aren’t in heaven with Jesus?
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Trad_Catholic
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carol marie:
- The necessity of Baptism was not instituted until Pentecost, as the Church has constantly taught.
- I am saying that unless person is baptized, he cannot be saved. Those who depart this world in the state of mortal sin or of ONLY ORIGINAL SIN descend immediately into hell, to be punished with different punishments." -Council of Lyons II (de fide)
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Dan-Man916
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Limbo is theological opinion, not an authoritative teaching of the Church.
The Catechism does not quote Lyons when talking about the fate of unbaptized infants who die (and they do so for a reason unlike the traditionalists would have us believe). It leaves the unbaptized to the mercy of God, and most Bishops today hold the opinion that the baptism of desire is operative to unbaptized infants who die.
The Catechism does not quote Lyons when talking about the fate of unbaptized infants who die (and they do so for a reason unlike the traditionalists would have us believe). It leaves the unbaptized to the mercy of God, and most Bishops today hold the opinion that the baptism of desire is operative to unbaptized infants who die.
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Dan-Man916
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It should be noted that St. Emerentiana was martyred as a CATECHUMEN on Jan 23 304 AD.
Catechumens were not yet baptized, and yet St. Emerentiana is canonized. If she was not baptized, then she would still have original sin. The Church is not going to canonize someone in hell.
Catechumens were not yet baptized, and yet St. Emerentiana is canonized. If she was not baptized, then she would still have original sin. The Church is not going to canonize someone in hell.
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carol_marie
Guest
I’m sorry but there is no way in the world that my sweet babies are in some state of hell-like but without the fire LIMBO! That is the most cruel thing I’ve ever heard and I will never in a million years beieve that! Regardless of what YOU believe, they are in heaven WITH Jesus AND THAT IS THE TRUTH PERIOD! I don’t know what sort of God you believe in but my God is merciful and said “Let the little children come to ME” and would never send an innocent baby who didn’t even get the opportunity to be born go to some hell like limbo! My last miscarriage was just six months ago and the ONLY thing that comforts me is the hope that I’ll see my baby someday in heaven someday so what sort of cruel person are you to say so casually that my baby is in a hell-like-limbo… and yeah, I know you said no fire… big deal!
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chimakuni
Guest
Carol Marie - I sympathize with you and I agree with you. I have lost two children and I know that Our Blessed Mother’s mantle is a great blanket for them to rest in when they become weary.
God is infinitely merciful and desires that all will come to know Him and love Him. It is no fault of the baby if they do not survive long enough to be baptized. I firmly believe that our children - through miscarriage, infant death prior to baptism, or abortion are with Our Lord and Savior. God Bless
Another question might be - when does the stain of original sin kick in? Prior to birth? After a child is born? Adam and Eve were both very much alive in the Garden when they first sinned…
God is infinitely merciful and desires that all will come to know Him and love Him. It is no fault of the baby if they do not survive long enough to be baptized. I firmly believe that our children - through miscarriage, infant death prior to baptism, or abortion are with Our Lord and Savior. God BlessAnother question might be - when does the stain of original sin kick in? Prior to birth? After a child is born? Adam and Eve were both very much alive in the Garden when they first sinned…
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carol_marie
Guest
Trad Catholic,One more thought… A few months ago I attended a “stump the Priest” night at my local Catholic Chruch. I asked the Priest this question: Do you believe it’s possible for a Muslum or a Jewish person to go to Heaven without a belief in Jesus Christ. He said YES, that there will be Muslums & Jews in heaven as well as many who were atheists on earth. He went on to explain that some people, through no fault of their own because of the culture they were born into or whatever could not accept Christ but they would still go to heaven based on the good they did on Earth and that Jesus died for all mankind. So are you telling me that your Catholic Chruch teaches that although atheists (people who live long lives REJECTING Jesus) can go to heaven, yet innocent, pre-born babies cannot?? How dumb is that!!!
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deogratias
Guest
God has not revealed what happens to babies who die before birth or who are aborted before they reach the age of viability. We can only rely on His mercy for these souls and pray for them.
Fr. Most wrote a good article on this also.
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/INFANT2.TXT
Fr. Most wrote a good article on this also.
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/INFANT2.TXT
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Dan-Man916
Guest
Carol,
the thing to remember here is that the Church has always taught that the Baptism of desire will Justify a person and can save them. Baptism of desire removes the stain of original sin.
So what trad_catholic posted was true, but he applied the teaching wrongly. The council of Lyons II teaches as a matter of infallible faith that those who die in mortal sin or original sin only descend immediately into hell.
However, if baptism of desire is operative for children who are miscarried, then those children have received sanctifying grace, and are not under original sin, thus what the council of Lyons II says is true, however, not applicable to the unborn who died without baptism.
In John Paul II’s encyclical Redemptoris Missio, the pontiff states in Chapter 10:
Now, Scripture does not lie, and the pontiff speaks with the authority of the ordinary magesterium, so that if God wants all men to be saved, then God will make a way for the child who died before birth to be saved.
The Catechism in sections 1260 and 1261 says that we are to leave them to the mercy of God.
Hopefully this will give you some peace knowing that God loved your children before He created them in the womb (Jer 1:5) and surely would not condemn them.
the thing to remember here is that the Church has always taught that the Baptism of desire will Justify a person and can save them. Baptism of desire removes the stain of original sin.
So what trad_catholic posted was true, but he applied the teaching wrongly. The council of Lyons II teaches as a matter of infallible faith that those who die in mortal sin or original sin only descend immediately into hell.
However, if baptism of desire is operative for children who are miscarried, then those children have received sanctifying grace, and are not under original sin, thus what the council of Lyons II says is true, however, not applicable to the unborn who died without baptism.
In John Paul II’s encyclical Redemptoris Missio, the pontiff states in Chapter 10:
- The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.
Now, Scripture does not lie, and the pontiff speaks with the authority of the ordinary magesterium, so that if God wants all men to be saved, then God will make a way for the child who died before birth to be saved.
The Catechism in sections 1260 and 1261 says that we are to leave them to the mercy of God.
Hopefully this will give you some peace knowing that God loved your children before He created them in the womb (Jer 1:5) and surely would not condemn them.
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Julian_Peters
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jeffreedy789
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i voted yes, and i’d like to caveat here.
i may be reiterating what’s been said more than once (i haven’t read all the posts in the thread), but i say that God can save anyone He wishes, in whatever way He wishes. He has chosen baptism for the normal way for our rebirth, but i would say He can save someone without it, if He chooses. so baptism IS necessary, but i’d say that, in some cases according to His wisdom and grace, the baptism may be a spiritual one rather than a physical one with water.
i may be reiterating what’s been said more than once (i haven’t read all the posts in the thread), but i say that God can save anyone He wishes, in whatever way He wishes. He has chosen baptism for the normal way for our rebirth, but i would say He can save someone without it, if He chooses. so baptism IS necessary, but i’d say that, in some cases according to His wisdom and grace, the baptism may be a spiritual one rather than a physical one with water.
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