Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

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A couple of thoughts…the thief on the cross would most certainly be considered baptism by desire, even if baptismal requirements were not “in effect.” He professed faith and died before he could do more than that.

As far as unbaptized babies…limbo is definitely not doctrinal. Our daughter was stillborn just days before my due date. The day she died, I was literally sewing her baptismal gown.

As someone said, it really is a matter of trusting in the mercy of God. God created these precious souls and He knew they would die before drawing a single breath. God is a God of love and mercy. Only a hateful, vengeful God would knowingly create a soul that He knew could never use free-will to love or deny Him and then only sit in judgement and condemn. Since we KNOW that Jesus came to save all, even though all are not saved, I completely trust in Him who has mercy on those who do not ever have a choice about accepting or denying, embracing or rejecting, Truth.
 
carol marie:
Two questions… what about the thief on the cross… Jesus said because he believed he would be with Him in Paradise - he wasn’t baptized. #2 I’ve miscarried six babies. None were baptized obviously… are you saying they aren’t in heaven with Jesus?
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This is were baptism of desire comes in. Maybe your babies and mine are playing together. 🙂

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
carol marie:
I’m sorry but there is no way in the world that my sweet babies are in some state of hell-like but without the fire LIMBO! That is the most cruel thing I’ve ever heard and I will never in a million years beieve that! Regardless of what YOU believe, they are in heaven WITH Jesus AND THAT IS THE TRUTH PERIOD! I don’t know what sort of God you believe in but my God is merciful and said “Let the little children come to ME” and would never send an innocent baby who didn’t even get the opportunity to be born go to some hell like limbo! My last miscarriage was just six months ago and the ONLY thing that comforts me is the hope that I’ll see my baby someday in heaven someday so what sort of cruel person are you to say so casually that my baby is in a hell-like-limbo… and yeah, I know you said no fire… big deal!
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Hi Carol!!

My miscarried baby is in heaven with yours. Please know that the Church does not definitively teach anything about limbo. It’s a theory, nothing more. I’m sorry you were offended by anything that was said here.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
carol marie:
Trad Catholic,One more thought… A few months ago I attended a “stump the Priest” night at my local Catholic Chruch. I asked the Priest this question: Do you believe it’s possible for a Muslum or a Jewish person to go to Heaven without a belief in Jesus Christ. He said YES, that there will be Muslums & Jews in heaven as well as many who were atheists on earth. He went on to explain that some people, through no fault of their own because of the culture they were born into or whatever could not accept Christ but they would still go to heaven based on the good they did on Earth and that Jesus died for all mankind. So are you telling me that your Catholic Chruch teaches that although atheists (people who live long lives REJECTING Jesus) can go to heaven, yet innocent, pre-born babies cannot?? How dumb is that!!!
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No, the Catholic Church does not teach that.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
According to scripture baptism IS necessary (John 3:3,5, 1 Peter 3:20-21), however, WATER baptism is the NORMATIVE means of intially receiving saving grace, not the ONLY means. As people have explained here God aknowledges the DESIRE that people have in their hearts and the BLOOD that is shed in His name. They are all that one baptism that is required for salvation.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
It is not. In spite of its absence, people are saved. Take the good thief, for example. Yes, we can’t say for sure whether he’s been baptized or not, but the Chruch does teach that people of other faiths get to Heaven.
 
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Augustine:
It is not. In spite of its absence, people are saved. Take the good thief, for example. Yes, we can’t say for sure whether he’s been baptized or not, but the Chruch does teach that people of other faiths get to Heaven.
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Sure it is. I’m not sure you read my whole post.

Everyone who is saved is baptised, either by water, desire or blood. There is never an absence of baptism.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Augustine:
It is not. In spite of its absence, people are saved. Take the good thief, for example. Yes, we can’t say for sure whether he’s been baptized or not, but the Chruch does teach that people of other faiths get to Heaven.
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Baptism IS necessary according to scripture.(Jn 3:3,5, 1 Pet 3:20-21); however, you may be baptised by desire, by blood, or by water.
 
John Chapta Three: “Jesus answered, ‘Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit’”

… 'Nuff said.
 
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Dan-Man916:
the thing to remember here is that the Church has always taught that the Baptism of desire will Justify a person and can save them. Baptism of desire removes the stain of original sin.
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**Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?

**A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible toreceive the Baptism of water.

(Sorry, I don’t remember who posted the second quote above)

In light of this and other things I’ve read about Baptism by Desire, how is that different (or is it) than what evangelical or fundamentalist Christians teach about accepting Christ as a personal savior? So if someone is truly contrite and accepts Christs sacrifice they are saved without water Baptism? Does that negate the necessity of water Baptism?

I’ve heard so many Bible-Christians condemn the Church for teaching Baptism by Water is necessary for salvation, but this makes it sounds like the Church says you don’t have to be Baptized just be repentant and believe, i.e. either is okay. I’m not sure I like the sound of that. Or am I confusing Justification with Salvation? I’m never quite sure.

Any Scripture references here?

Before joining the Church, I attended as Christian camp where I had that salvation experience. However, when I joined the Church I was still Baptized, and to be honest I never really felt like a Christian until I affirmed my faith and the priest said, “I baptize you in the name…”

Can anyone help clear this up for me? I would be forever grateful!
 
BasBleu said:
**Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? **

A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible toreceive the Baptism of water.

(Sorry, I don’t remember who posted the second quote above)

In light of this and other things I’ve read about Baptism by Desire, how is that different (or is it) than what evangelical or fundamentalist Christians teach about accepting Christ as a personal savior? So if someone is truly contrite and accepts Christs sacrifice they are saved without water Baptism? Does that negate the necessity of water Baptism?

I’ve heard so many Bible-Christians condemn the Church for teaching Baptism by Water is necessary for salvation, but this makes it sounds like the Church says you don’t have to be Baptized just be repentant and believe, i.e. either is okay. I’m not sure I like the sound of that. Or am I confusing Justification with Salvation? I’m never quite sure.

Any Scripture references here?

Before joining the Church, I attended as Christian camp where I had that salvation experience. However, when I joined the Church I was still Baptized, and to be honest I never really felt like a Christian until I affirmed my faith and the priest said, “I baptize you in the name…”

Can anyone help clear this up for me? I would be forever grateful!
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The Church teaches that water baptism is necessary for anyone who understands that it is necessary. If one is ignorant of that fact, through no fault of his own, his ignorance will not be held against him. God knows his heart and knows whether or not he would have desired baptism had he understood its necessity. That is baptism of desire.

Does that help?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
Here are several Scriptures that point to Baptism of desire and Baptism of Blood.
Baptism of desire

Jn 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Lk 23:43 Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Lk 7:47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven–for she loved much.

Baptism of blood

Mt 10:32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.

Mt 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Jn 12:25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this about Baptism of desire:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.[59] He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.[60] Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61] The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”[62] Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

It sounds to me like the Catechism is saying that baptism of desire may be applicable to those who are in invincible ignorance of the gospel. So, they can be saved if they knew that they needed baptism.
 
I replied yes. But I do think someone can be saved without being baptized if they have faith in Christ. Those who despise baptism are a different story.

So I would say that baptism is normative for salvation but not necessary.

Mel
 
There are SOOO many Protestant websites that go into backbreaking detail about why baptism in not necessary for salvation, and how the Catholic Church is wrong. Could anyone give me a Catholic website (or a few) that explain why the Catholic position is right and the Protestant position is wrong?
 
Manualman policy: Never argue with a guy who cites Ludwig Ott.

Nice work!
 
As a sacrament of initiation and as Jesus says unless a man be born again of the water and the holy spirit he cannot enter the kingdom i believe it is necessary for salvation. Christ is the center of our faith. God sent Christ to show us the way to salvation. we learn from the gospels that on the authority of God the Father, Christ breathed on his apostles and said receive the Holy Spirit and to those whose sins you forgive they are forgiven and to those whose you retain they are retained and He further told them make disciples of all nations and baptize them in the name of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit etc. remember also that John the baptist said that his baptism was nothing compared to the baptism that will come through the spirit.👍
 
Yes because Christ instituted it that way.

We are bound by the sacramental order, God is not.
 
aball1035 said:
There are SOOO many Protestant websites that go into backbreaking detail about why baptism in not necessary for salvation, and how the Catholic Church is wrong. Could anyone give me a Catholic website (or a few) that explain why the Catholic position is right and the Protestant position is wrong?
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Catholic.com should have some articles, just use the “search” function. The catechism includes refferences to water baptism for salvation too. Vatican.va has the catechism, same with the knights of columbus website.

I’d be careful about dipping into those issues (you can get yourself in a knot), protestants can be tricky, here are some of the arguments:
common:
#1 the “thief on the cross” was saved without a [water] baptism
#2 there are multiple types of baptisms (i.e. baptism of moses - from 1 Corinthians 10:2)
uncommon:
#1 Mark 16:16 (which says you must be baptised) isn’t in the codex vaticanus (the Greek texts the vatican has).

Usually it’s the KJV-Onlyists (those who believe the King James Bible is perfect - which is obviously false) who complain against baptism for salvation, or, “baptismal regeneration” as they call it , so, the Mark 16:16 argument won’t really appear much since they too believe it’s in the Bible.

For the first two common arguments, well, there are many verses referring to baptism and salvation. I was told the thief on the cross was in a special position.
As for the “mark 16:16” one… I don’t know… Someone will have to help me with that one.

Hope that helps, Jesus Bless!
 
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