Is baptism symbolic or a sacrament?

[santaro75]

Many churches believe that Baptism is symbolic.

Catholics believe that it is a sacrament.

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE?

 

[santaro75]

I believe it is for the remission of sin because it says that in the bible.

 

[exoflare]

I don’t know how useful it is to take poll questions on objective truth, but no it’s not symbolic.

 

[Contarini]

It’s not an either/or. The historic Protestant churches confess that it is a sacrament, a means of grace. But most Protestant churches would also say that it is symbolic. This in itself should not be controversial–St. Augustine and other Fathers said as much. The question is exactly how the symbol is related to the reality. That there is a symbol and a reality (or more precisely a sign and a thing signified) is disputed by no one except perhaps the Lutherans (Hermann Sasse, at least, challenged this formulation of Augustine’s as the root of both Catholic and Reformed errors).

Edwin

 

[Lady_Cygnus]

It’s both. It is a sacrament, but it is also symbolic. If God choose he could have just removed our sins without the physical connection, like Jesus did for the Centurion’s servant. However, because we are physical beings he gave us a beautiful sacrament that reflects what is going on.

Perhaps I’m missing something though as it seems be asking a trick question…like whether a wall is flat or vertical.

 

[exoflare]

Lady Cygnus:

It’s both. It is a sacrament, but it is also symbolic. If God choose he could have just removed our sins without the physical connection, like Jesus did for the Centurion’s servant. However, because we are physical beings he gave us a beautiful sacrament that reflects what is going on.

Ah, very true. I stand corrected.

 

[santaro75]

exoflare:

Ah, very true. I stand corrected.

Well I guess I have been told that Baptism is symbolic and not necessary for salvation. but i can’t find in the bible where it says that Baptism is a symbol.

 

[Contarini]

That’s an excellent point, santaro. The Bible doesn’t say this. The category of sign or symbol is one that Christians have historically applied to the sacraments generally. The problem is that many modern Protestants have lost the idea that signs and what they signify are bound up together, and they see “symbols” as basically decorative–things that are nice to have around because they help you think about Jesus, but not of any intrinsic importance. This is a horrible error which rips the heart out of historic Christianity.

People who say the sacraments are “just symbols” and so have no intrinsic importance are, ironically, applying a human tradition of reflection on Scripture in such a way as to make void the plain sense of Scripture itself–exactly what those same people typically accuse Catholics of doing.

They do of course have some Scriptures that they appeal to, such as Peter’s statement that what saves in baptism is the “appeal of a good conscience to God” rather than the physical removal of dirt. But since no one thinks that the physical removal of dirt itself constitutes salvation, their appeal to that text falls flat. Clearly the inner element of the sacraments is more important than the outward sign (the Catholic Church recognizes this by saying that people can be saved through “baptism of desire” and can feed on Christ in a “spiritual communion”). But that’s no excuse for separating the two and turning them against each other. The full power and meaning of the sacrament is only apparent when you have both outward and inward aspects (the “outward and visible sign” and the “inward and spiritual grace”) working together in harmony.

Edwin

 

[santaro75]

Yes, i believe that when Christ was baptised and the dove came upon him, he was demonstrating what happens when we are baptized in the name of the trinity. We are cleansed of original and all sin up to that point, born into the family of God becoming his child (“this is my son”) and we recieve the holy spirit (like a dove). A truly free gift of Christ purchased by his death on the cross.

Sometimes I think that some faiths think that it is only their confession of faith that saves them. Does that mean then that they earned or merited salvation because of their sacrifice and confession? Is salvation not a truly free gift?

This is not to say that baptism is a perpetual salvation, the bible clearly teaches agains that.

Symbolic baptism combined with Bible only can not address the salvation of infants and those who can not comprehend the word of God (mentally challenged or handi capped) as far as i have seen. Yet unless they are cleansed of the inherited sin of adam, Can they be saved?

 

[arieh0310]

(the Catholic Church recognizes this by saying that people can be saved through “baptism of desire” and can feed on Christ in a “spiritual communion”). But that’s no excuse for separating the two and turning them against each other. The full power and meaning of the sacrament is only apparent when you have both outward and inward aspects (the “outward and visible sign” and the “inward and spiritual grace”) working together in harmony.

Edwin

Very well written Edwin! I come from a Pentacostal background where everything except the “alter call” is purely symbolic. Communion is just bread and grape juice, baptism is simply an expression of desire to be committed to Christ, etc. All the mystery, grace, and supernatural has been sucked out of the sacraments. Why would Christ command us to go through empty rituals?

 

[santaro75]

arieh0310:

Very well written Edwin! I come from a Pentacostal background where everything except the “alter call” is purely symbolic. Communion is just bread and grape juice, baptism is simply an expression of desire to be committed to Christ, etc. All the mystery, grace, and supernatural has been sucked out of the sacraments. Why would Christ command us to go through empty rituals?

Its funny i think because it takes less faith in christ to believe that he was only speaking symbolically about baptism and communion then it does to believe in them literally. Yet they say that Catholics lack faith in christ and rely on their own religious works.

Of course we believe that Christ is the one doing these supernatural things in the sacraments.

 

[Philthy]

It is both.
Most importantly, I believe, Baptism “…saves you” as Peter said, by the actual remission of sin.

IN ADDITION (as opposed to OTOH) if you don’t get the symbolism of being dunked in water as a cleansing act, I think your putting your theology ahead of the obvious.

As an aside, I think the contention that baptism is merely a “public profession” of ones faith - is bogus and counter-scriptural. After all, when Philip and the eunoch “,came to some water…the eunoch said, ‘Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?’ And they both went into the water and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away.” Hmmm. No crowd, and only one witness to “profess” to, and God immediately removes him from the planet. I’d say that is a strong veto for the “public profession” variation of the symbolic only concept of baptism.

Phil

 

[santaro75]

Philthy:

It is both.
Most importantly, I believe, Baptism “…saves you” as Peter said, by the actual remission of sin.

IN ADDITION (as opposed to OTOH) if you don’t get the symbolism of being dunked in water as a cleansing act, I think your putting your theology ahead of the obvious.

As an aside, I think the contention that baptism is merely a “public profession” of ones faith - is bogus and counter-scriptural. After all, when Philip and the eunoch “,came to some water…the eunoch said, ‘Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?’ And they both went into the water and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away.” Hmmm. No crowd, and only one witness to “profess” to, and God immediately removes him from the planet. I’d say that is a strong veto for the “public profession” variation of the symbolic only concept of baptism.

Phil

Plus there is no biblical support for it anywhere that i know of. One of the things that bother me about it is that it doesn’t require the believer to reach beyond the comprehension of the mind (flesh and blood) and reach out in faith to what jesus said.

“flesh and blood have not revealed this to you”.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

The Catholic Church clearly teaches - and I believe - that baptism is a sacrament.

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

Baptism is a sacrament which cleanses us from Original Sin, makes us Christians, children of God, and heirs of Heaven.

 

[rjs1]

Of all the Protestant denials this is one of the most frustrating. Our Lord’s words were absolutely unambiguous.

Jesus said: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

This is followed by reference after reference in the New Testament to the fact that when people decided to became followers of Christ they were then baptised. It is not optional or just symbolic.

 

[arieh0310]

rjs1:

Of all the Protestant denials this is one of the most frustrating. Our Lord’s words were absolutely unambiguous.

Jesus said: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

However, using a clever game of semantics many Protestants will argue that “water” is amniotic fluid. Seems that they think Jesus is Captain Obvious since everyone is born of amniotic fluit.

 

[axolotl]

The deacon who led our baptism instruction told us that there is nothing “magical” about baptism and that it is just our way of welcoming the child into the community.

 

[axolotl]

Even though only first time parents have to take the class, I’m considering taking it again at our current church.

 

[santaro75]

axolotl:

The deacon who led our baptism instruction told us that there is nothing “magical” about baptism and that it is just our way of welcoming the child into the community.

no magic, just cleansed of original sin, spritual circumcision, rebirth in the spirit as a child of God and a brother and sister in the church. All minor stuff.