Is beauty really subjective or is it objectively determined by God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MysticMissMisty
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A joint Fermilab/SLAC publication:

July 28, 2015

Is this the only universe?
Our universe could be just one small piece of a bubbling multiverse
.

By Laura Dattaro

Human history has been a journey toward insignificance.

As we’ve gained more knowledge, we’ve had our planet downgraded from the center of the universe to a chunk of rock orbiting an average star in a galaxy that is one among billions.

So it only makes sense that many physicists now believe that even our universe might be just a small piece of a greater whole. In fact, there may be infinitely many universes, bubbling into existence and growing exponentially. It’s a theory known as the multiverse.

One of the best pieces of evidence for the multiverse was first discovered in 1998, when physicists realized that the universe was expanding at ever increasing speed. They dubbed the force behind this acceleration dark energy. The value of its energy density, also known as the cosmological constant, is bizarrely tiny: 120 orders of magnitude smaller than theory says it should be.

For decades, physicists have sought an explanation for this disparity. The best one they’ve come up with so far, says Yasunori Nomura, a theoretical physicist at the University of California, Berkeley, is that it’s only small in our universe. There may be other universes where the number takes a different value, and it is only here that the rate of expansion is just right to form galaxies and stars and planets where people like us can observe it. “Only if this vacuum energy stayed to a very special value will we exist,” Nomura says. “There are no good other theories to understand why we observe this specific value.”

For further evidence of a multiverse, just look to string theory, which posits that the fundamental laws of physics have their own phases, just like matter can exist as a solid, liquid or gas. If that’s correct, there should be other universes where the laws are in different phases from our own—which would affect seemingly fundamental values that we observe here in our universe, like the cosmological constant. “In that situation you’ll have a patchwork of regions, some in this phase, some in others,” says Matthew Kleban, a theoretical physicist at New York University.

. . .]

symmetrymagazine.org/article/july-2015/is-this-the-only-universe

Kurisu35712, I will get back to you later. Busy day today!
The positing of multiple universes is a hypothesis, not even a theory. Scientists, however, have developed a new premise so as to avoid the prospect of creation begotten by a Creator. If there are infinite universes strung along through eternity, the Creator is not necessary to explain anything. It is no accident that Stephen Hawking, a promoter of this notion, has recently and officially declared himself an atheist.

Whereas I find this universe in all its particulars incredibly beautiful, Hawking no doubt would be willing to allow the existence of a universe that is objectively ugly in all its particulars. After all, in an infinite series of universes, it stands to reason that at least one would be incredibly beautiful and another unbelievably ugly by our standard of judgment.
 
The positing of multiple universes is a hypothesis, not even a theory. Scientists, however, have developed a new premise so as to avoid the prospect of creation begotten by a Creator. If there are infinite universes strung along through eternity, the Creator is not necessary to explain anything. It is no accident that Stephen Hawking, a promoter of this notion, has recently and officially declared himself an atheist. . .
Definitely an interesting individual, not entirely consistent in his ideas.
In speaking about a 100,000,000 USD initiatinve to locate life in space (lol/sigh/cry), he remarked, “To understand the Universe, you must know about atoms - about the forces that bind them, the contours of space and time, the birth and death of stars, the dance of galaxies, the secrets of black holes. But that is not enough. These ideas cannot explain everything. They can explain the light of stars, but not the lights that shine from planet Earth. To understand these lights, you must know about life. About minds.”
Minds? Given what he has written elsewhere, I wonder how he personally understands that reality and its place in the structure of the cosmos.
 
I hate to be “that guy” but…

What’s your definition of “beauty”?

Sure, it’s an annoying question, but your answer to the OP will be determined by it. Since the main purpose of language is to communicate ideas to each other, a definition should, in most cases, reflect common usage so as to avoid confusion. “Beauty” is certainly used in the subjective sense in its common usage.

Now you can opt for a more esoteric definition if you wish, but then you don’t necessarily disagree with the logic of someone using the other definition. A disagreement of definitions is not an actual ideological disagreement, since definitions are conventions. Unless you feel that there is a moral imperative to associate utterances with meaning in a certain fashion, in which case I’ll be most interested in hearing your defense of the English language, which is pretty much the bastard child of each of its predecessors. Good luck trying to argue that English is the “correct” language, in that case.
 
I hate to be “that guy” but…

What’s your definition of “beauty”?

Sure, it’s an annoying question, but your answer to the OP will be determined by it. Since the main purpose of language is to communicate ideas to each other, a definition should, in most cases, reflect common usage so as to avoid confusion. “Beauty” is certainly used in the subjective sense in its common usage.
Even if beauty is (sometimes or often) used in common parlance to express subjective preference, that does not mean it is always used in that way.

I made the point a while ago that if everyone accepted and agreed that the preference sense of beauty was THE proper sense, there would be no disagreements about whether any object was beautiful or not. It would be reducible to a claim meaning something similar to “I like that painting.” Who would argue about that?

I would argue that most people in ages past did NOT use the word in that way. The reductionism that collapses the word “beauty” to a mere expression of personal preference is more prevalent in modern western ego-dominant cultures where all qualities and values have come to reside in the ego or one or other of its pretenses. Virtually the same has happened with the meaning of ethical/moral/good and the same reductionist nonsense threatens the word “truth” in some quarters.
Now you can opt for a more esoteric definition if you wish, but then you don’t necessarily disagree with the logic of someone using the other definition. A disagreement of definitions is not an actual ideological disagreement, since definitions are conventions. Unless you feel that there is a moral imperative to associate utterances with meaning in a certain fashion, in which case I’ll be most interested in hearing your defense of the English language, which is pretty much the bastard child of each of its predecessors. Good luck trying to argue that English is the “correct” language, in that case.
So, is your contention that if some quality or entity cannot be completely reduced to a proper definition, that quality or entity does not exist?

In Catholic thought (but by NO means ONLY in Catholic thought,) beauty is understood as one of the three great transcendentals - beauty, truth and goodness. Now these three apply in some sense to everything that exists. In fact, it is claimed that beauty, truth and goodness are three fundamental aspects of Being Itself (God) and it is their inhering in Being Itself that makes them present in particular beings.

The difficulty, regarding a proper definition, is that beauty, like truth and goodness, expresses something fundamental about Being and beings.

To simplify the challenge at hand regarding beauty, try to define what the experience or qualia of colour, for example, refers to. I am not speaking here of the wavelength of light, but, rather, of that internally perceived component of our experience which we call “colour.” What precisely IS colour as a quality? Try to define that. It is so fundamental that we are lost and unable to say much beyond “Colour is colour,” hoping that other experiencers of colour “get” what we are talking about. A definition is quite another matter, however.

Another word, with a similar problem is the word “person” or “consciousness.” What exactly is a person? What does it mean to be conscious? Define either word, getting at their essential “what it means to be or have” that quality. It isn’t as easy as you make it out to be with many aspects of reality, not even everyday ones we - on the surface - are so familiar with yet CANNOT properly define.

What is “truth?” What is “goodness?” What is “beauty?” All three have very similar issues with regard to arriving at a suitable and non-contentious definition.

Certainly, you wouldn’t argue or make the self-defeating truth-claim that ”truth” does not or cannot exist BECAUSE it is difficult to arrive at a non-controversial definition, would you? Similarly, “good” suffers from an almost identical problem.

All three, I would suggest, are part of the great mystery of existence, the puzzling through and solving which is one of the things that does make life worth living. The more we grapple with these great transcendentals, the more, in fact, that life becomes worth living because they each express something of the quality of what it means TO BE.

Finding the definition isn’t the starting point. I doubt very much that it has much to do with the destination point either, precisely because the reality is far greater than a word or words can capture or encapsulate. In short, this isn’t the problem you make it out to be.

Personally, I doubt that the definition of any word is as effective in its prescribed function as you claim. Take any word in common usage, at some point when we try to fully comprehend the referent of that word we arrive smack into a wall. We know intuitively that the reality of the thing is far beyond what can be expressed by the word(s) used to denote it.

A word is a symbol pointing at something greater and a definition is a collection of symbols that are invoked when we try to push the function of the word and hit that wall of incomprehension. Words will fail precisely because our understanding is limited.
 
The nature of beauty is not so easily pinned down as the nature of truth or virtue. The beautiful is infinitely variable in its expressions, whether of nature or the objects of human creation. We speak of God as the supreme Artist because there is so much beauty in nature, and that beauty excels anything men can produce. So much so is this true that it is virtually impossible to find anything in nature that is not beautiful in one way or another. The Creator has likewise endowed the human artist with the desire to create beauty, and just as the Creator saw that all his creation was good, so also the human artist will find it difficult to dissociate the idea of the good from the beautiful.

Beauty, above all, clothes itself in forms that delight. This is why even mathematicians, whom we do not normally think of as artists, find beauty in their equations because they are good; their form harmonizes with the inner intuition and instinct for truth, even the truth of numbers which barely excite the senses but can overwhelm the mind of anyone who fully understands and admires numerical harmonies. The delight of discovering an equation that works may be no less intense than discovering a poem that inspires or a painting that startles us or a tune that evokes deep emotions. These are all ways of recognizing something good and true in nature.

All art forms are obsessed with not only harmony of forms but also with the good and the true. To the extent that a painting is not evocative of something noble in our nature, or a poem tells an outright lie about our human nature, the painting and the poem are not good. Such paintings and poems slap us in the face with their falsity and their ugliness. And so it is that when, for example, a dramatist writes a play about evil characters, his play will fail if there is not a single noble character among them. If there is no one to admire in the play, there cannot be a story line that is even worth the effort to follow. The dramatist, even the tragedian whose tragic hero is destroyed in the end (a hero so flawed as Macbeth, for example) is concerned not just to show evil, but to show as well how evil consumes itself. From that lesson demonstrated by the fate of Macbeth we are ennobled by the truth Shakespeare wants to explore: that ambition corrupts, and absolute ambition corrupts absolutely.
 
Charlemagne III said, "The positing of multiple universes is a hypothesis, not even a theory. Scientists, however, have developed a new premise so as to avoid the prospect of creation begotten by a Creator. If there are infinite universes strung along through eternity, the Creator is not necessary to explain anything. It is no accident that Stephen Hawking, a promoter of this notion, has recently and officially declared himself an atheist.

“Whereas I find this universe in all its particulars incredibly beautiful, Hawking no doubt would be willing to allow the existence of a universe that is objectively ugly in all its particulars. After all, in an infinite series of universes, it stands to reason that at least one would be incredibly beautiful and another unbelievably ugly by our standard of judgment.”

First off, Stephen W. Hawking is a member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.

GEE WHIZ Charlemagne, I’ve debated with Al Moritz regarding string theory!😛
  1. Superstring Theorist at University of Florida Wins 2015 Heineman Prize for Mathematical Physics
Washington D.C., October 23, 2014 --The American Physical Society (APS) and the American Institute of Physics (AIP) announced today, on behalf of the Heineman Foundation for Research, Educational, Charitable, and Scientific Purposes, that theoretical physicist Pierre Ramond, director of the Institute for Fundamental Theory at the University of Florida, has won the 2015 Dannie Heineman Prize for Mathematical Physics – one of the highest honors for scientific investigators in that field.

In recognizing Ramond, the two organizations cited his “pioneering foundational discoveries in supersymmetry and superstring theory, in particular the dual model of fermions and the theory of the Kalb-Ramond field.”

“Since the days of ancient Democritus, philosophers and scientists who pondered what makes up the fundamental building blocks of matter have thought about point-like particles – first atoms then subatomic particles like electrons or quarks,” said H. Frederick Dylla, executive director and CEO of AIP. “But by initiating superstring theory in the early 1970s, Pierre Ramond generalized to all particles the notion that the basic building blocks are not point particles at all, but tiny string-like objects that vibrate to form the particles.”

The prize consists of a certificate and a $10,000 award, which will be presented at a special ceremony during the April 2015 APS meeting in Baltimore, Md.

aip.org/news/2014/superstring-theorist-university-florida-wins-2015-heineman-prize-mathematical-physics
  1. The Pontifical Academy of Sciences:
Juan Maldacena
Field: Physics
Title: Professor

[snip]
Summary of scientific research
Professor Maldacena has worked on quantum gravity and string theory, searching for a consistent quantum mechanical description of spacetime. He studied quantum aspects of black holes according to string theory. He proposed an equivalence between quantum hyperbolic spacetimes and quantum field theories living on their boundaries. This has provided a complete quantum description of black holes as seen from the outside. In addition, this relation has been used by various groups to model strongly interacting systems of quantum particles. He has also worked on some aspects of cosmological perturbations in the theory of inflation.

[snip]
casinapioiv.va/content/accademia/en/academicians/ordinary/maldacena.html
  1. Welcome to the Berkeley Center for Theoretical Physics! The Berkeley Center for Theoretical Physics (BCTP) was founded at the turn of the millennium with the goal of bringing together the greatest minds in theoretical physics to collaborate on some of the most pressing scientific questions about the Universe. Housed atop Old LeConte Hall on the Berkeley campus and closely affiliated with Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL), the BCTP is at the forefront of particle theory, string theory and cosmology. Furthering our understanding of matter, spacetime and the Universe, or more specifically quantum gravity, dark matter, neutrinos, the Higgs Boson, and even the multiverse, is at the heart of the BCTP’s work.
The Key to progress and discovery within the BCTP is its people. At the core are the faculty, whose careers are distinguished by revolutionary contributions to frontier research, and by the teaching and mentoring of students. Post-doctoral fellows and graduate students are key members of the Center because they play tremendously important roles in collaborations, both national and international.
ctp.berkeley.edu/
bctp.berkeley.edu/history.html

[continued]
 
  1. 2015 J. Robert Oppenheimer Distinguished Lecture
    EColloquia & Lectures
Monday, February 23, 2015 - 5:30pm
“Universe or Multiverse”
Cosmological observations show that the universe is very uniform on the maximally large scale accessible to our telescopes. The best theoretical explanation of this uniformity is provided by the inflationary theory. I will briefly describe the status of this theory in view of recent observational data obtained by the Planck satellite. Rather paradoxically, this theory predicts that on a very large scale, much greater than what we can see now, the world may look totally different. Instead of being a single spherically symmetric balloon, our universe may look like a “multiverse”, a collection of many different exponentially large balloons (“universes”) with different laws of low-energy physics operating in each of them. The new cosmological paradigm, supported by developments in string theory, changes the standard views on the origin and the global structure of the universe and on our own place in the world.
  1. NASA:
    In string theory, there are no elementary particles (like electrons or quarks), but pieces of vibrating strings. Each vibration mode corresponds to a different particle and determines its charge and its mass. In the current understanding of the theory, those strings are not “made of” anything: they are the fundamental constituent of matter. The consequences of replacing point-like particles by vibrating microscopic strings are enormous. The only consistent framework to describe those strings implies a 10- or even conceivably an 11-dimension world in which 6 or 7 dimensions are curled up. Those extra dimensions are the ones which determine the properties of the world we live in. The larger dimensions are what we perceive as the ordinary space and time.
    imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/science/questions/superstring.html
TO Kurisu35712:

You need to read **Darwin’s Dogs **by Emma Townshend

Thanks to everyone! May you be blessed with understanding and love. God is love!
 
Yes, I did read thier comments by George Ellis & Joe Silk back in December 16, 2014. Their comments don’t mean much to me. I agree with the Fermilab/SLAC publication that I provided ( symmetrymagazine.org/article/july-2015/is-this-the-only-universe) which is from the U.S. Department of Energy/Office of Science which is noted on the bottom left of that document.

Thanks for chimming in. I done with this topic.🙂 I have a busy schedule outside of the Internet. Take care.🙂
 
Is this thread about to be hi-jacked in favor of string theory? If so, please explain how that relates to subjective and objective beauty. 🤷
 
The question of objective or subjective is irrelevant. The point is that we have an experience we call beauty and that experience has meaning and that meaning refers to something that we have discovered (rather than imagined). When we see an object that is beautiful what is really happening is that we are experiencing something that is like perfection or something like our personal idea of perfection, it reminds us of beauty as it truly is. But if beauty in some sense does not really exist objectively, if the meaning we experience does not refer to something “real” then there is no frame of reference to think feel or consider something beautiful or ugly in the first place and therefore we should not be experiencing it.

Beauty may very well be in the eye of the beholder, however it remains true that the beholder is discovering something real, something like beauty or perfection in some particular object or being; something that transcends the particular objects or beings of our experiences which the meaning relates to. The beholder is discovering something like God.
 
The question of objective or subjective is irrelevant. The point is that we have an experience we call beauty and that experience has meaning and that meaning refers to something that we have discovered (rather than imagined). When we see an object that is beautiful what is really happening is that we are experiencing something that is like perfection or something like our personal idea of perfection, it reminds us of beauty as it truly is. But if beauty in some sense does not really exist objectively, if the meaning we experience does not refer to something “real” then there is no frame of reference to think feel or consider something beautiful or ugly in the first place and therefore we should not be experiencing it.

Beauty may very well be in the eye of the beholder, however it remains true that the beholder is discovering something **real,**something like beauty or perfection in some particular object or being; something that transcends the particular objects or beings of our experiences which the meaning relates to. The beholder is discovering something like God.
Spoke like a true fan of C.S. Lewis. 👍
 
Even if beauty is (sometimes or often) used in common parlance to express subjective preference, that does not mean it is always used in that way.
I admitted as much.
I made the point a while ago that if everyone accepted and agreed that the preference sense of beauty was THE proper sense, there would be no disagreements about whether any object was beautiful or not. It would be reducible to a claim meaning something similar to “I like that painting.” Who would argue about that?
If your friend likes a painting, there could be multiple reasons to respond by saying you dislike it. Perhaps you want your friend to be aware that you aren’t a fan of this sort of art and don’t want to be invited to a similar exhibit in the future. Perhaps you intend to convince your friend otherwise. Contrary to popular belief, preferences aren’t static. You can gradually change someone’s preferences by making observations. I’ve ruined movies for people by pointing out clichés in their plots before.
I would argue that most people in ages past did NOT use the word in that way.
Maybe not. I don’t really know enough about the word’s history to contradict you. But language evolves, so I don’t see how that’s relevant to current usage. A definition doesn’t become sacred just because it was first, or just because it had the longest period of use.
So, is your contention that if some quality or entity cannot be completely reduced to a proper definition, that quality or entity does not exist?
Is your contention that it does exist? If so, what is it that exists, then? You don’t have a definition, so how can your assertion of the object’s existence be meaningful? It would be like me saying that durachmalons are unpleasant dinner guests. That would be meaningless because I haven’t explained what a “durachmalon” is.

Now I suppose you could just take “beauty” to be a primitive term whose meaning is too obvious to address, but then our discussion is over because, frankly, the meaning in your usage doesn’t seem obvious to me.
To simplify the challenge at hand regarding beauty, try to define what the experience or qualia of colour, for example, refers to. I am not speaking here of the wavelength of light, but, rather, of that internally perceived component of our experience which we call “colour.”
Defining color in terms of wavelength has the advantage that when we say something like, “the truck is red”, we learn something about the object, namely the truck. But if color is defined subjectively, then you haven’t actually learned anything about the truck. When I say the truck is red, I’d really just be describing my relation to the truck. I could be hallucinating the color of the truck for all you know and the subjective experience of red would still be equally real.

So if you wish to describe external things, you really need an objective definition. If we understand beauty as a matter of preference, then perhaps one day we’ll be able to fully characterize preferences as the occupation of certain brain states, which gives an objective basis for the term. And once a person’s preferences are known, then the claim that something is beautiful has real content about the objects in question. For example, if I prefer blonde women and I describe a woman as beautiful, she is probably blonde.
 
I am really enjoying this discussion, so far, and I’d like to add my two cents.

I wonder if objective beauty, supposing its existence, isn’t being marred by our imperfect senses.

No thing can be completely beautiful when studied under our own subjectivity. We can see a statue and say the concept is beautiful, or the material used is beautiful, the colors are beautiful, the texture is beautiful. But often we will find a problem with it, because our senses are not perfect.

For example, I have a very small degree of color blindness (green), and some colors are often “distorted” to me (I see the wrong color intended). That is my limitation. Just because I don’t like the color used in some painting, doesn’t mean the color used is not beautiful. In fact, maybe the person achieved perfect harmony of colors (a kind of beauty) and I missed it completely. I liked the concept, the drawing, the frame, the size, the everything of the painting, except the color. And now the painting is “ugly” to me.

There are some studies on the “Golden ratio”, that many artists (musicians, architects) used as proportion on their works. Perhaps that is one step in the direction of finding what is “Objective beauty” - many studies have worked on what is a beautiful body/face using those proportions, to show that most people actually do find “perfectly proportioned” face more beautiful than others. Just because some people’s sense might be distorted to these proportions doesn’t discredit the possibility that there might be a calculable beauty factor somewhere.

That’s my two cents, and now I’ll stay quiet here on the side 😛
 
I guess another short observation is in order. “Beauty” is a concept, which describes something that is aesthetically pleasing. Concepts are abstractions, they do not exist as ontological objects.

Concepts can have actual referents in the real world. If we find some object to be aesthetically pleasing, we might attach the adjective “beautiful” to that object. What we find beautiful depends on our taste and as such it is subjective. So we subjectively attach the objective label to certain objects.

And let’s not forget that beauty is only skin deep. 🙂 (Exception: Lucy van Pelt, who has a very “thick” beauty.)
 
Another observation that suggests the subjectivity of beauty is the fact that people never seem uncertain of what is beautiful. One can be uncertain of facts, but if you play a song for someone and ask whether they find it beautiful, you generally won’t hear, “Gee, I’m not really sure, come to think of it!”

Of course people can be neutral and not really respond to the music one way or another, or they can be ambivalent and find some features of the music beautiful and others not. But I can’t imagine genuine uncertainty.
 
What we find beautiful depends on our taste and as such it is subjective.
What we find beautiful CANNOT depend entirely on our taste because how we perceive the object depends upon real attributes of the object. That some or all of those attributes taken together provide a ground for making qualitative determinations shows that those determinations do not “depend” – certainly not entirely and definitely not sufficiently – “on our taste.”

You are back to making bald assertions again, as if those are sufficient to make an objective case. I suppose you subscribe to the position that since what you consider to be “true” is dependent upon your subjective assent, therefore the proposition that beauty is merely subjective, ipso facto, MUST be true merely because you opine that it is.
 
I am really enjoying this discussion, so far, and I’d like to add my two cents.

I wonder if objective beauty, supposing its existence, isn’t being marred by our imperfect senses.

No thing can be completely beautiful when studied under our own subjectivity. We can see a statue and say the concept is beautiful, or the material used is beautiful, the colors are beautiful, the texture is beautiful. But often we will find a problem with it, because our senses are not perfect.

For example, I have a very small degree of color blindness (green), and some colors are often “distorted” to me (I see the wrong color intended). That is my limitation. Just because I don’t like the color used in some painting, doesn’t mean the color used is not beautiful. In fact, maybe the person achieved perfect harmony of colors (a kind of beauty) and I missed it completely. I liked the concept, the drawing, the frame, the size, the everything of the painting, except the color. And now the painting is “ugly” to me.

There are some studies on the “Golden ratio”, that many artists (musicians, architects) used as proportion on their works. Perhaps that is one step in the direction of finding what is “Objective beauty” - many studies have worked on what is a beautiful body/face using those proportions, to show that most people actually do find “perfectly proportioned” face more beautiful than others. Just because some people’s sense might be distorted to these proportions doesn’t discredit the possibility that there might be a calculable beauty factor somewhere.

That’s my two cents, and now I’ll stay quiet here on the side 😛
:hmmm: Good points to ponder!

It isn’t as if beauty – as a topic of inquiry – has been funded or pursued to any depth except by a few philosophers. Given what little has been devoted to the subject is it any wonder that very little can be said?

For the record, I think you are on the right track. 👍
 
Another observation that suggests the subjectivity of beauty is the fact that people never seem uncertain of what is beautiful.
I don’t think this is true. People may be very certain about the beauty of some things, highly certain of the lack of beauty in others and uncertain about a whole whack of things in the middle.
One can be uncertain of facts, but if you play a song for someone and ask whether they find it beautiful, you generally won’t hear, “Gee, I’m not really sure, come to think of it!”
I am not sure that songs are generally thought of as “beautiful.” Some music perhaps, but not songs. In fact, I think if you ask specifically about the “beauty” of a song, most people WOULD express uncertainty.

If you were to ask the question using a less specific word like “good.” "Is that song or music ‘good,’ then most would express certainty. But, asked that way, the question seems indistinguishable from “Do you like the song?”
Of course people can be neutral and not really respond to the music one way or another, or they can be ambivalent and find some features of the music beautiful and others not. But I can’t imagine genuine uncertainty.
I suspect most of those hypothetical people you ask assume you mean to inquire whether they prefer the song or not – i.e., do they like it – because most would feel inadequate to express an objective judgement regarding the aesthetic qualities of the music. Ask a professional musician to provide an expert judgement and see what the response would be.
 
Is your contention that it does exist? **If so, what is it that exists, then? **You don’t have a definition, so how can your assertion of the object’s existence be meaningful? It would be like me saying that durachmalons are unpleasant dinner guests. That would be meaningless because I haven’t explained what a “durachmalon” is.
**What exists **is a **thing **(objective reality) that inspires appreciation, awe, reverence, pleasure, a sense of approaching perfection in the various degrees that the specific thing does approach it. Without that thing, there would not exist anything beautiful. It has been stated over and over in this thread that you do not subjectively confer beauty on anything. The thing is either beautiful or it is not. People always know what is beautiful when they see it. If others don’t recognize that beauty, that does not mean it ceases to be beautiful; it only means it is not beautiful for them. A blind man cannot recognize the beauty of a marvelous sunrise. That does not mean the sunrise ceases to be beautiful.

In like manner, the true and the good do not cease to exist because a chronic liar or an immoral cad do not recognize truth and goodness, or only allow truth and goodness to exist where and when it suits the liar and the cad to consent to their existence. This is the world of the deluded solipsist who goes so far as to doubt his own existence. Descartes’ “Cogito; ergo sum” is the proper remedy for that. Once we doubt the reality of our thoughts, the conviction of sanity is lost. 🤷
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top