Is being in/around an occasion of sin mortally sinful?

[The_Otaku]

A thought crossed my mind a while ago and peaked my interest towards an answer enough to create this thread. If you are in an occasion of sin (a former alcoholic in a bar for example) you can be certain you’re on thin ice, but if the situation has changed where the occasion of sin for a former vice, addiction, fetish, etc, has been cured, especially if by prayers and God’s healings and graces upon you, is it mortally sinful or sinful at all to be interacting with or around things that USED TO be a huge source of temptation and sin for you?

I use the example of the drunk. If he’s clean and hasn’t touched a drop, but for whatever reason, he has friends that drink and out of not wanting to lose them, he frequents the bars and enjoys the ambiance, watching the game on the tv there, BSing with his friends, etc, what then? For some people, it’s not so much what they did that was addicting, but the habitat, niche, or environment in which they did it. It might have been comfortable for them. In the example of a bar, club, or whatever, if the person who used to be an alcoholic still goes there to hang out with friends, he’s not committing a sin, is he, so long as he doesn’t touch a drop? And even if he does have a drink, if he can prove to himself and to God that it won’t go any farther and he exercises discipline in what used to be or still is an occasion or environment of sin, is there anything he should be worried about morally, with the obvious exception of relapsing and becoming a drunk again?

Obviously, the temptation will be there, and the demons of alcoholism will try to bring him back into it, but if he can exist in this environment, even though it used to be his downfall and ruin, is there a problem and in this sinful? Certainly we wouldn’t advise the man or woman to do this, but if they can demonstrate restraint, shouldn’t it be ok?

At first, we might think the person as weak, for not being strong enough to fully let the addiction go- they got rid of the drinking, but didn’t get rid of the environment and occasion of sin. Where is the sin there and where is it no longer? If he doesn’t drink but he stays around drinking buddies and likes the environment he’s in, isn’t this a contradiction of his intentions? Or, perhaps we can consider his resolve lukewarm? What can we say to this situation?

He got rid of the critical part, the drinking, but he doesn’t want to let go of the other aspects that helped foster the addiction in the first place.

I ask this hypothetical because I used to have some fetishes. I don’t look at the online material there is for this stuff anymore (it was only ever online to begin with), but the memories of the images or videos, or even my own fantasies or daydreaming still remain sometimes. I’m similar to the drunkard example. I’ve gotten rid of the critical part of the addiction- the fetish material, but the fetish itself isn’t completely wiped away since I still fantasize, usually unintentionally at first. The thoughts just pop into my head, and I entertain them. However, they don’t excite me like they used to, and the temptations to go farther are not there anymore, praise God. However, I still have the thoughts, and that in itself, is an occasion of sin for me, as it could lead to masturbation or back into looking at the material online. That’s the danger for me, like falling back into drinking is for the alcoholic.

I pray this doesn’t happen to me, but I’m not so proud or cocky as to think it couldn’t or wouldn’t ever happen again. It most likely will, in a moment of weakness, but I’ll go to confession, like always, and things will be made right again. For me, this struggle is psychological. For the drunk, it’s a mixture of physical and psychological, as well as sociological, so he’s worse off than I am most likely.

At least with having a fetish, you pretty much keep it to yourself and it’s something private that people don’t know about unless you tell them (like I’ve had the courage to do). But with drinking, it’s in public, usually, unless you’re a closet drunk, and it’s with friends which encourage it, and in an environment given to it.

Considering how bad a situation it is for the drunk, if, despite all that, he’s clean and sober, is it sinful for him to be there and interacting with sinners that he used to be just like? Definitely we can say it’s unwholesome, but can we say it’s sinful?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

A thought crossed my mind a while ago and peaked my interest towards an answer enough to create this thread. If you are in an occasion of sin (a former alcoholic in a bar for example) you can be certain you’re on thin ice, but if the situation has changed where the occasion of sin for a former vice, addiction, fetish, etc, has been cured, especially if by prayers and God’s healings and graces upon you, is it mortally sinful or sinful at all to be interacting with or around things that USED TO be a huge source of temptation and sin for you?

I use the example of the drunk. If he’s clean and hasn’t touched a drop, but for whatever reason, he has friends that drink and out of not wanting to lose them, he frequents the bars and enjoys the ambiance, watching the game on the tv there, BSing with his friends, etc, what then? For some people, it’s not so much what they did that was addicting, but the habitat, niche, or environment in which they did it. It might have been comfortable for them. In the example of a bar, club, or whatever, if the person who used to be an alcoholic still goes there to hang out with friends, he’s not committing a sin, is he, so long as he doesn’t touch a drop? And even if he does have a drink, if he can prove to himself and to God that it won’t go any farther and he exercises discipline in what used to be or still is an occasion or environment of sin, is there anything he should be worried about morally, with the obvious exception of relapsing and becoming a drunk again?

Obviously, the temptation will be there, and the demons of alcoholism will try to bring him back into it, but if he can exist in this environment, even though it used to be his downfall and ruin, is there a problem and in this sinful? Certainly we wouldn’t advise the man or woman to do this, but if they can demonstrate restraint, shouldn’t it be ok?

At first, we might think the person as weak, for not being strong enough to fully let the addiction go- they got rid of the drinking, but didn’t get rid of the environment and occasion of sin. Where is the sin there and where is it no longer? If he doesn’t drink but he stays around drinking buddies and likes the environment he’s in, isn’t this a contradiction of his intentions? Or, perhaps we can consider his resolve lukewarm? What can we say to this situation?

He got rid of the critical part, the drinking, but he doesn’t want to let go of the other aspects that helped foster the addiction in the first place.

I ask this hypothetical because I used to have some fetishes. I don’t look at the online material there is for this stuff anymore (it was only ever online to begin with), but the memories of the images or videos, or even my own fantasies or daydreaming still remain sometimes. I’m similar to the drunkard example. I’ve gotten rid of the critical part of the addiction- the fetish material, but the fetish itself isn’t completely wiped away since I still fantasize, usually unintentionally at first. The thoughts just pop into my head, and I entertain them. However, they don’t excite me like they used to, and the temptations to go farther are not there anymore, praise God. However, I still have the thoughts, and that in itself, is an occasion of sin for me, as it could lead to masturbation or back into looking at the material online. That’s the danger for me, like falling back into drinking is for the alcoholic.

I pray this doesn’t happen to me, but I’m not so proud or cocky as to think it couldn’t or wouldn’t ever happen again. It most likely will, in a moment of weakness, but I’ll go to confession, like always, and things will be made right again. For me, this struggle is psychological. For the drunk, it’s a mixture of physical and psychological, as well as sociological, so he’s worse off than I am most likely.

At least with having a fetish, you pretty much keep it to yourself and it’s something private that people don’t know about unless you tell them (like I’ve had the courage to do). But with drinking, it’s in public, usually, unless you’re a closet drunk, and it’s with friends which encourage it, and in an environment given to it.

Considering how bad a situation it is for the drunk, if, despite all that, he’s clean and sober, is it sinful for him to be there and interacting with sinners that he used to be just like? Definitely we can say it’s unwholesome, but can we say it’s sinful?

I don’ t know. I don’t think any of us can control the thoughts that pop into our heads, but it is the ‘entertaining’ them part that represents the thin ice.

Someone dangerous comes to your door. You can’t help that. However, you don’t have to ask him in, sit him on the couch, and ply him with food and drink. That would fall under the label of ‘entertaining’ him.

So with these random thoughts. Close the door. Keep the snack box and the fridge locked.

 

[Pray4Life]

Yes, refuse to believe he is the delivery guy when you didn’t order pizza If these thoughts are gravely sinful in nature, it’s a serious sin to entertain them even if “other things” don’t follow. No sin for them to occur if you’re not deliberately trying to have them, it’s the consenting to them that’s the sin. Doing things you know will definitely, or most probably, bring them on would be the thin ice part, as far as I can see- placing yourself in the near occasion of sin, which we resolve not to do when we pray the act of contrition at confession (well, if you say the same formula as me LOL) Not sure if that is sinful by itself.

But them just popping into your head, here and there…that isn’t sinful. Sure would be nice if we could have our brains wiped clean along with our souls when we confess, wouldn’t it?

Not too sure where the alcoholic comes in. He’s deliberately putting himself in a dicey situation. I assume by your post that you are not doing this. I don’t know what kind of a role addictions play in these sorts of scenarios when it comes to culpability. Does he have a special responsibility to avoid these occasions of sin even if he doesn’t feel they are a serious risk? Is this kind of belief part of his condition? A feature marked in some mental disorders is “poor insight.” A bipolar person in a manic phase usually has “poor insight,” they don’t realize that all is not right with the world, they have no understanding of how sick they are. If they even notice other people, they believe the other guy is the one acting funny, trying to spoil their fun. Their judgment is impaired. Perhaps alcoholics are the same way about their own illness at a certain point in the recovery process, I don’t know enough to say but it is an interesting thought. (Needless to say I’m bipolar, but I don’t drink. )

ETA: And I wish you’d stop calling the poor guy a drunk. Call him Al or something. The poor guy’s on the wagon and it’s not very nice to go around calling people drunks anyway.

 

[The_Otaku]

It was just a hypothetical situation I presented, the alcoholic and the bars he frequents and buddies he hangs around with after he’s recovered. It was the easiest example I could think of at the time, so I went with alcoholism, but I imagine I could have used any number of addictions.

In my example, I was working under the idea that he’s fully recovered and he’s not in an immediate danger of relapse. The presumption is that he’s ‘cured’ of his drinking habits or they’ve been broken to a degree that being drunk never happens anymore. The assumption is that he’s fully recovered from the CONDITION of being an alcoholic, but not the environment, etc., and that he still clings to these things out of the sentimental attachment or whatever security they gave him as an alcoholic.

My question, more specifically then, I guess, I would be is it ok for him to be going to these places if he won’t drink at all or won’t drink to get drunk, and can this even be considered an occasion of sin anymore if he’s no longer in the situation of being addicted?

We, and the Church often refer to “occasion of sin” in the present tense, as if we’re working in the assumption that whatever the sinful elements are, they are frequent, active, and current. But for the man in this example, that’s no longer the case, so can a bar or club be considered an occasion of sin for him if he’s no longer an alcoholic, or does it remain an occasion of sin regardless of his integrity and situation being that it is a bar and he cannot gurantee himself or anyone that he will never get drunk again?

It’s the same idea with porn. There’s never such a thing as looking at porn just for fun and not to get sexually aroused or to satisfy a curiosity just for the sake of knowledge, rather than for sexual reasons.

In my case, with the fetish material, for example, the material itself wasn’t pornographic, as is usually the case with fetishes. The objects of the fetish, usually non-sexual body parts like feet, legs, etc, can only ever sexually excite you if you want them to, if you have a mental or psychological imbalance for that or theres some psychological reason you’re attracted to them, or the devil is tempting you to make more out of it than it actually is. It actually takes third party activity to make it pornographic by displaying it in such a way that it is sensual.

Now that theres no longer anything tangible with which to tempt me unless I allow it to be there, only the memories or fantasies remain. As you say, if it’s just in passing, and I quickly get rid of the thoughts, then there’s probably nothing serious going on. As for entertaining them, which I admittedly do sometimes, sometimes for several minutes, I often stop them right before they get out of hand. Or, if I do have a flash or image in my mind I think I can control, I turn it into something more innocent so the temptation to take it further won’t be there. I have a meticulous way of dealing with these thoughts, but it works for me. Prayer helps, confession helps, and perpetual adoration helps as well. Not to mention simply shifting my attention to something else. It’s really easy to get out of my occasions of sin, thankfully.

Being that this was/is a fetish however, and fetishes are primarily psychological, I’d be lying if I said I’m fully recovered at this point. I’ve got the mental discipline now to be able to be where I need to be, and whether it’s because of the habit I had, the fact it’s psychological, or even the devil using these former weaknesses against me and using them to mock me or feel weaker than I actually am, I’m confident and happy with where I am because I know God is helping me out more and more over time. The funny thing is, the fetishes I have/had didn’t start off as sexual to begin with, and it’s funny that they’re returning back to the way they were when they started developing in me- innocent, almost cute little things that are more like quirks than fetishes. If I can make the complete reversal of my feelings or attachments to these fetishes, they technically won’t be fetishes anymore, and when I think of them, technically they won’t be occasions of sin either…unless, as I said a moment ago, it doesn’t matter how you feel towards the occasion, it would still be sinful.

In my case, I don’t think so, honestly, since I have the possibility to eventually make them completely non-sexual, and so thinking of them, even if still out of habit, wouldn’t be a sin so much in and of itself, than a disturbance. A bar is still a bar, however. It exists to provide people the opportunity to drink to their fill, with each person having their own limit, the limit the bar gives, and the limit the law gives.

[ETA: And I wish you’d stop calling the poor guy a drunk. Call him Al or something. The poor guy’s on the wagon and it’s not very nice to go around calling people drunks anyway.

Sorry about that. It does seem kind of insensitive, but I tend to be a blunt person online (and sometimes in real life) by habit and I call things as I see them, and I rarely sugarcoat anything, dance around it, etc. Sometimes tact is called for, and sometimes I fail at it.

You’re right, I really shouldn’t call him a drunk, even if he is one. I won’t be PC about it though, and not reference his attachment to alcohol at all, by calling him something like ’ temporarily impaired’ or something like that. “I’m not a drunk! I’m a person whose constantly temporarily impaired!” He’s an alcoholic. I could be mean on purpose and call him a lush, a gulch, a reprobate or any number of names, but it’s not in my heart to do that. Alcoholic is the the least insulting one I can think of. I COULD just call him Al, though. He has a name and you’re right in suggesting that.

I guess I got carried away with a hypothetical guy who doesn’t exist that I forgot his name!
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[The_Otaku]

I don’ t know. I don’t think any of us can control the thoughts that pop into our heads, but it is the ‘entertaining’ them part that represents the thin ice.

Someone dangerous comes to your door. You can’t help that. However, you don’t have to ask him in, sit him on the couch, and ply him with food and drink. That would fall under the label of ‘entertaining’ him.

So with these random thoughts. Close the door. Keep the snack box and the fridge locked.

But I just wanted to be a gracious host!

 

[K_Dog]

I don’t know if I’ll help or hurt the discussion but I’d like to toss this in:

25 years ago, I reverted back to my Catholic faith. I did so at a time when I almost died from the habits of my lifestyle. Since then, I’ve been clean & sober, no drugs, etc., in a word, did a 180 away from the immorality I was living. The only part I played in that was to cooperate with the grace I prayed for. God would & did take it away from me, as long as I didn’t chase it, or take back my will once I surrendered it.

Fast forward to about 15 years ago, after trying to discern how to serve God. Long story short, I felt I was to use my dark past to reach out to those who were/are where I was. Especially in that sub-culture, if you’re going to effectively evangelize, you better be real…better be able to relate & be related to.

When I thought I first understood what God wanted, I thought for sure that it was another of the evil one’s deceptions. But with spiritual direction I found I was to be a light into the darkness. As long as I maintained the light.

Sorry for the long rant, but the point is this…We know what’s right & wrong…God told us we do. We have a choice, even when we think we don’t (more deception). Use what you OBJECTIVELY know that God expects of you, & make your decisions on that. And pray like you’ve never prayed before for the grace, wisdom & strength to know, discern, & do the will of God.

For 15 years, I’ve gone back into the dark ugliness that I used to live in with only one thing on my mind…to do God’s will. I haven’t backslid, & I have been able to bring others out only by the grace of God. If you TRULY want to do His will, it’s amazing how you can be attacked, but He will keep you safe. It’s your choice.

Bottom line…is it mortally sinful? If you allow yourself to give in to thoughts, consider the consequences, know it’s sinful, & CHOOSE to do it anyway, then yes. And I"ll pray for you.