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freerf
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I believe the bible based on faith. faith is a gift from God.
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Bookcat
Guest
Are you in the RCIA??
Once one comes to believe the Faith regarding the Catholic Church…the rest begins to fall in place…the Assumption is then seen as gaurenteed by Christ himself who gave the keys to Peter…and who said “he who hears you hears me”…
I too am a convert…though admittedly I have lost prob all “protestant accent” I may have had.
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Bookcat
Guest
Often Protestants who are coming into the Church have some difficulty in these areas…as does anyone coming into “an unfamilar country”…
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Dogma (infallible) - demands assent; obstinate denial or doubt is a sin against faith.
Doctrine (certain teachings, non-infallible) - demands “religious submission of mind and will”; obstinate denial or doubt is a sin against charity.
Discplines - demand obedience; refusal is a sin against charity and in some cases justice.
Since discipline demands obedience and dogma and doctrine both demand assent, then the distinction isn’t as important. Nonetheless, the ordinary Catholic has a ***living magisterium. ***If he is uncertain as to the binding nature of that which the Church has taught and or demands, he can simply ask his pastor.
In my experience as an ordinary Catholic, I haven’t found the words used by my pope, bishop, or pastor to be all too difficult to understand. It is not all that ambiguous, for example, that the Dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary demands the assent of faith.
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freerf
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Protestant accent! That’s funny. No, i’m not in RCIA. Probably a pride-thing. A “kid” teaches it at our church.
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freerf
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I find it difficult that a dogma “demands the assent of faith”. How can “assent of faith” be demanded? It’s almost an oxymoron. Faith being demanded? If it’s demanded, is it still faith?
Regarding the rest, I see nothing that implies the requirement for belief, only the requirement for assent.
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Bookcat
Guest
Well it is true…some converts from Protestantism still have a “Protestant way of talking etc” …hee hee
RCIA is great in its looking back to how they did things in some of the early Centuries…and can be very good (if the kid knows his stuff) …and sometimes it can be less than great etc…your mileage will vary.
Certainly read the Catechism and get some other solid sources in your seeking…(books are very important of course)
But one does need “persons” …the Gospel is handed on…it is “heard” …etc
My own way passed through a very good Catholic Monastery…
My formation came via the Monks.
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freerf
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Thanks everyone. I have to log off now, but will be interested to continue tomorrow.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Let’s explore that thought futher then…
Based upon faith, which version of the Book of Daniel do you believe is inspired? The larger, more ancient Catholic version or the truncated Protestant version?
The reason I ask, is that ALL of the ancient Christian manuscripts of Sacred Scripture of other than fragmentary form have a longer version of the Book of Daniel than your Protestant Bible does. ALL OF THEM. Every Church of Christ prior to the Protestant Reformation had a larger Book of Daniel. ALL OF THEM. So, given this evidence, how does one FORCE themselves to reject this ancient version of inspired Biblical texts for the truncated version which the Protestants use?
Additionally, the Protestant Book of Esther does not even mention God! Doesn’t that seem unbelievable to you? All of the books of the Bible mention God, except the Protestant Book of Esther, which is also a truncated version of the Catholic version found in EVERY ancient Christian manuscript of Sacred Scripture, accepted by EVERY Church of Christ before Protestantism. The larger, inspired Book of Esther DOES mention God, quite often actually. How does one FORCE themselves to believe that a version of Esther that is Godless is actually the inspired version, when all Christian manuscripts of ancient origin testify to a different conclusion?
Shouldn’t you ALSO believe tradition–at least the tradition regarding Daniel and Esther–to be based on faith? If not, why not?
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Dogma = the revelation of God. The word actually comes from Scripture. After definitively deciding a formerly disputed matter regarding circumcision, the apostles sent their councilar “decrees” (Gk dogmata) throughout the Church. You may find it difficult to imagine God demanding that the faithful assent to the teachings of those he ordained to teach in His name, but it was a decision guided by the Holy Spirit, and therefore a Divinely revealed dogma which demands the assent of all the faithful. We are not permitted to reject the revelation of God without consequences.
Jesus said “He who hears you, hears me. He who rejects you, rejects me.” The Bible teaches “Obey your leaders and submit to them” (Heb 13:17). Jesus is the one doing the demanding.
Heresy has consequences. Paul taught, “after a first and second admonishment, a heretic avoid.” Paul was a pretty demanding fellow. Matt 18 also teaches that the Church is the final arbiter when brethren sin against one another, and heresy is definitely a sin against Christian brethren. Matt 18 teaches that if one does not accept fraternal correction, one should bring the witness of two or three brethren. If they will not listen to them, we should tell it to the Church. If he will not even be corrected by the Church, then we are to treat them as separated brethren. Sounds awefully demanding, doesn’t it? This is what I mean by demanding nature of the deposit of faith. It’s Biblical. If one chooses to reject the testimony of those ordained by God, they do so at their peril.
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kepha1
Guest
We believe the Bible based on faith too, faith that Jesus authorized the Church to compile the holy books into a Bible. You have a cart with no horse. You have the option of accepting 16th century opinions of what the Bible means, (the foundation of all Protestantism) or searching out the whole of Divine Revelation from the same source that gave is the Bible. I applaud the fact that you are here. This indicates a willingness to learn the truth, and truth is something that has to be found.
Marian doctrines are probably the most difficult obstacles for sincere enquirors, potential converts, and even those in RCIA. The Bible is much like having a box full of fireworks. They can be set off in a dazzling display, or you can just read the labels. The Bible becomes a dazzling display of color and fire as the scriptural portrait of Mary unfolds. For me, the Bible didn’t really shoot off until I began understanding Mary more. I’m glad you believe the Bible. That is a good starting point.
This short video explains alot about Marian doctrine based on scripture. I enjoy it thoroughly and I hope you do too.
May God be with you in your journey.
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thistle
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My actual experience with cradle Catholics is that none of them have ever even browsed the CCC never mind read it. Yes I do mean none of them. I live in the Philippines which is 85% Catholic and I really have not met anyone who has read the CCC and that includes my wife, all her relatives and all the friends I have made here over the years.
My point still remains. How does anyone who reads the CCC know if what they are reading is infallible, non-infallible or discipline. There are 2865 paragraphs in the CCC. Are you suggesting people make an appointment with their priest and go through each paragraph so they can note beside each one whether its infallible, non-infalible or a discipline. I bet the priests don’t even know that.
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kepha1
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Short answer:
Love God with all your heart; love your neighbor as you love yourself, obey our church leaders, and what is infallible, fallible or discipline will fall naturally into place without aquiring spiritual hernias.
Thistle, a good explanation is found here:
saint-mike.org/qa/fs/viewanswer.asp?QID=1748
Maybe a catechism would make a good Christmas gift to your family members.
Love God with all your heart; love your neighbor as you love yourself, obey our church leaders, and what is infallible, fallible or discipline will fall naturally into place without aquiring spiritual hernias.
Thistle, a good explanation is found here:
saint-mike.org/qa/fs/viewanswer.asp?QID=1748
Maybe a catechism would make a good Christmas gift to your family members.
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Smnith
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LilyM
Guest
In a sense God DOES demand belief. As you say, faith is indeed a gift from God, but it is one that he freely and unreservedly offers to all, whether or not they ask, and without any exceptions or holding back.
And it is a gift that we are free to accept or reject like any other gift. But some things are non-negotiables.
If someone said to you ‘I don’t believe in God or a divine creator in any way, shape or form’, would you HONESTLY come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit had not called that person to believe in God, and therefore that God did not demand (bad terminology) that this particular creature believe in Him?
What a bizarre notion - that God would not only be perfectly happy with some of His children purposely rejecting the idea of belief in Him, but more than that would actually deliberately deny to some who seek it the ability or ‘gift’ of that belief
Of course God wants us all to believe in Him and in every truth that He teaches through His mouthpiece, the magisterium of the Church founded by Christ. And He ultimately, denies to none who sincerely look for them the means or ability to do so.
No, He doesn’t hold it against those who have never heard at all, and so don’t believe for that reason. Nor does He hold it against those of us who honestly admit, at least for a time, to not being able to accept or understand on any level. As long as we ALSO honestly admit that such a lack is due to something in ourselves rather than Him, and we continue to seek that understanding and acceptance through prayer and study.
‘To whom much is given, of him shall much be required’, as Our Lord says. The Catholic faith is a fantastic gift, that carries with it a higher-than-average level of responsibility in terms of study and seeking understanding.
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thistle
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Years ago I purchased CCC’s for all my family here including inlaws. I don’t think any of them have looked at them. Whenever I talk about a particular teaching they ask how I know about it!!Short answer:
Love God with all your heart; love your neighbor as you love yourself, obey our church leaders, and what is infallible, fallible or discipline will fall naturally into place without aquiring spiritual hernias.
Thistle, a good explanation is found here:
saint-mike.org/qa/fs/viewanswer.asp?QID=1748
Maybe a catechism would make a good Christmas gift to your family members.
Thanks for the link but it does not help in knowing which teachings in the CCC are infallible or non-infallible or disciplines. That is not something that falls naturally into place. You have to be told and remember what they are.
Haven’t you noticed that Catholics in these forums are continually asking the category of the Church teachings and nobody understands why the Church doesn’t either produce a list categorising them or has a note at the end of each CCC paragraph.
I’ve read and regularly refer to the CCC but I don’t know the categories of all the teachings therein.
Why should we have to guess?
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Bookcat
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church
The teaching office
888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task “to preach the Gospel of God to all men,” in keeping with the Lord’s command.415 They are “heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers” of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."416
889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417
890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
The teaching office
888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task “to preach the Gospel of God to all men,” in keeping with the Lord’s command.415 They are “heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers” of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."416
889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417
890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
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mangy_dog
Guest
There’s a story about Alexander the Great while on bivouac with his army. He went among his men one night and found a guard asleep on duty.
Punishment would’ve been dousing with fuel and set afire. But Alexander walked up to him and the soldier was suddenly awaken from his sleep to find the General standing there in front of him.
He immediately snapped to attention. The general asked, " what is your name soldier!!?"
Alexander my general.
The general couldn’t believe his ears grabbed the soldier by the breast armor and asked him again - and again the soldier responded, " my name is Alexander my general".
The general seemed like he would tear him apart with his own hands and instead said, " soldier, change your attitude or change your name!!". And walked off.
If you’re going to call yourself a Catholic or even a Christian…[change your attitude or change your name].
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TedDC
Guest
I changed my “name” - and actually found a closer and clearer connection to God for having shed all of the stuff built up on and around Him by the Church.
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Bookcat
Guest
The Church was formed by Christ around himself and it is he who gives her truth and true life. It is the Holy Spirit who guides his Church …sent to her from Christ and the Father…guiding into all truth…as Jesus promised.
Jesus of Nazareth formed the Church …and built it around him …not the other way around.
I wish to express my honest hope for a return to the name…
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