Is Bible Corrupted By Human, Did God Knew That It Going To Happened

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Hello Christians Friend I would like to show you Deuteronomy 31:24-29.

24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,
25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying:
26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;
27 a"for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. If today, while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD, then how much more after my death?
28 "Gather to me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.
29 “For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.”

Note: Well this verses shows that Bible is not in a original form. Any comments please feel free to talk in this thread.
 
Once again, you have perfectly demonstrated how Muslims take passages out of the bible and use them for their own ways.

However, i will take passages out of the bible and not twist them and show to you how false prophets will come about:

This passage states there will be no more prophets after John the baptist:
Mat 11
13 Because it was towards John that all the prophecies of the prophets and of the Law were leading;
14 and he, if you will believe me, is the Elijah who was to return.
15 Anyone who has ears should listen!

and about how the devil can appear as an angel of light:

2Cor
13 These people are counterfeit apostles, dishonest workers disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 There is nothing astonishing in this; even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Now please, do not use the bible passages out of context! If you do, ensure they are used correctly.
God bless
 
tomshaikh said:
29 “For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.”

Note: Well this verses shows that Bible is not in a original form. Any comments please feel free to talk in this thread.
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If your interpretation is correct, then please explain why many other prophets used the Torah, hundreds of years after Moses died:

The prophet Samuel.

The prophet David.

The prophet Isaiah.

The prophet Daniel.

etc, etc, etc.

Even Jesus was quoting the scriptures. Even the pharisees.

Only SOME jews became corrupt. NOT ALL, and certainly not the scriptures. Is the God of Abraham so stupid as to let that happen? 🤷
 
tomshaikh said:
Hello Christians Friend I would like to show you Deuteronomy 31:24-29.

24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,
25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying:
26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;
27 a"for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. If today, while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD, then how much more after my death?
28 "Gather to me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.
29 “For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.”

Note: Well this verses shows that Bible is not in a original form. Any comments please feel free to talk in this thread.
Click to expand...
What proof do you offer that these verses are not the ones that became corrupt? :eek:
 
tomshaikh said:
Note: Well this verses shows that Bible is not in a original form. Any comments please feel free to talk in this thread.
Click to expand...
I would hardly say that this verse PROVES that the Bible is not in original form. The verse does speak to the hardness of heart of the ancient Jews, and that Moses believed that without his watchful eye, they would become corrupt. He never says anything like - after I am gone you are going to totally rewrite the law. I am sure that if anyone had tried to alter the law of Moses, they would have been chastised by their fellows. Also, this speaks nothing to the New Covenant, which Jesus fulfilled.

Just like there is nothing in the Bible that proves Solo Scriptura, there is nothing in the Bible that discredits the inspiration of the text.
 
Nate415 said:
Just like there is nothing in the Bible that proves Solo Scriptura, there is nothing in the Bible that discredits the inspiration of the text.
Click to expand...
And where does the Bible discredit Solo Scriptura? So, because the Bible doesn’t say you can’t use the inspiration of the text, then you should? So, if the Bible is silent on abortion it’s okay?
 
Nate415 said:
Just like there is nothing in the Bible that proves Solo Scriptura, there is nothing in the Bible that discredits the inspiration of the text.
Click to expand...
actually, there is. small little mistakes here and there.

oh my goodness, which side am I on here. 😃
 
If the Bible has been “corrupted”; which seems to mean that:
  • the texts have been altered so that they do not convey any clear meaning
  • they cannot be restored
  • the entire thing has been altered in that way & with those two results
    - if that is so, then the Bible cannot be mined for quotations that show it predicts the coming of Mohammed. So it is pointless to quote the Bible as predicting M. Yet Ahmed Deedat does exactly that.
Two sites, two POVS:
**Something to make clear: Christianity is not purely a “religion of the book”. The importance of the Holy Bible in it is very great indeed, but the Bible is not as important as Christ Himself. So “defending the Bible” (not that it needs it !) is not everything - a Christianity with a Bible & no Christ would be no Christianity at all: it would be a husk 😦 a Christianity with Christ but no Bible, OTOH, though purely hypothetical, is not impossible. The Bible is a great means - but it is a means, & not the End, ****for which, for Whom, we exist. **

The Bible is known by its effects - it is not a book so much as a hurricane, a fire, a flood, a super-volcano:

Jeremiah 20:9:

If I say, "I will not mention him,
or speak any more in his name,"
(A) there is in my heart as it were a burning fire
shut up in my bones,
and((“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 20:9&version=47#cen-ESV-19432B”)**) I am weary with holding it in,
and I cannot.

Cross references:
  1. **If it had a million errors in it, the Bible would still be the Word of God, because its mission is to perform all that He Wills. Far from man sitting as judge upon it, the Bible judges man, by confronting him with the God Whose Power it mediates. It is not static like a picture, which can be appraised in an uncommitted way, but is dynamic, & calls for a reaction: & in doing so, is like Christ to Whom it witnesses. **

    **God works in power through the Bible - that He works, is what matters; the limitations of the means by which He works, do not change that. God honours His Word by making it fruitful: s****o details not related to that don’t really matter. **
 
Jesus came, the Word Incarnate, and dwelt among us. If there were any problems with scripture before that, and I am not conceding that there were, Jesus set the record straight. Jesus was very clear.

People are always getting things wrong for all sorts of reasons. Some just don’t understand. For others, perhaps ego gets in the way. There are so many reasons why people get things wrong.

But Jesus came and not only gave us the Gospel, he gave us the Church. And He promised that the Church would stand and would always be right. We can trust Jesus.
 
Pinkyyy said:
And where does the Bible discredit Solo Scriptura? So, because the Bible doesn’t say you can’t use the inspiration of the text, then you should? So, if the Bible is silent on abortion it’s okay?
Click to expand...
The Bible doesn’t discredit Solo Scriptura in any specific verse, it simply doesn’t prove it - there is no scripture that says anything to the effect of “only use scriptures as your deposit of faith, the traditions of men or the Church are worthless” as so many Protestants wish it did. Actually, the inspired writers mention the authority of the Church in several parts. Since this is not a Solo Scriptura thread, I’m not going to go into it in great detail.

I do not understand your second question. I would only say that the inspiration of the Bible does not mean that the authors got every scientific and historical fact correct. The Bible is inerrant when teaching on faith and morals, similar to the pope.

BTW - The Bible is not silent on abortion - thou shall not kill…

My point in my previous post is that the Bible does not reference itself. This is largely due to the fact that the Bible did not exist until almost 300 years after the texts that comprise the Bible were written.

Since the Bible never mentions itself, it can neither discredit itself or offer itself up as the only source of God’s Word.
 
tomshaikh said:
Hello Christians Friend I would like to show you Deuteronomy 31:24-29.

24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,
25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying:
26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;
27 a"for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. If today, while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD, then how much more after my death?
28 "Gather to me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.
29 “For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.”

Note: Well this verses shows that Bible is not in a original form. Any comments please feel free to talk in this thread.
Click to expand...
Moses does not predict here or anywhere else in the OT that Jews’ overall tendency to be corrupt will distort the Book of Law. Accordingly, Moses also predicts that the Book of Law (Torah) will be a witness against corrupted people. If Moses had meant the textual perversion of the Torah, he would not have referred to it as a permanent witness confirming the fulfillment of the prediction that many will “turn away from God and His commandments”. 😉
 
The koran says so.

**Every word in the Coran is a lie, including “a”, “an”, and “the.”

But what do you expect from a pedophile deluded by an inferior demon claiming to be Gabriel? (And anyone who married a 9 year old girl is a pedophile.)

I confess there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead.**
 
Nate415 said:
The Bible doesn’t discredit Solo Scriptura in any specific verse, it simply doesn’t prove it - there is no scripture that says anything to the effect of “only use scriptures as your deposit of faith, the traditions of men or the Church are worthless” as so many Protestants wish it did. Actually, the inspired writers mention the authority of the Church in several parts. Since this is not a Solo Scriptura thread, I’m not going to go into it in great detail.

I do not understand your second question. I would only say that the inspiration of the Bible does not mean that the authors got every scientific and historical fact correct. The Bible is inerrant when teaching on faith and morals, similar to the pope.

BTW - The Bible is not silent on abortion - thou shall not kill…

My point in my previous post is that the Bible does not reference itself. This is largely due to the fact that the Bible did not exist until almost 300 years after the texts that comprise the Bible were written.

Since the Bible never mentions itself, it can neither discredit itself or offer itself up as the only source of God’s Word.
Click to expand...
Yes, but it also doesn’t say you can go and interpret verses anyway you want and then claim things such as pergatory - which is nowhere in the Bible.

I believe that the bible acutally is kind of silent on abortion - godly men prayed for their enemy’s children to be aborted. Exodus claims that the price for striking a woman and causing her to “miscarriage” is a fine - unless the wife (a born human) is killed, then the price is death. Don’t get me wrong, I am not for abortion. If you’re 15 and do something stupid, live with the consquences. It’s not meaning that you can go and do whatever you want. But not everything is so clear or black and white.

I feel CC believes they can interpret the bible and have councils to “come up with” ideas such as pergatory when Jesus mentions nothing of it. What books refrences itself? Now I am confused 🙂 Inbetween those 3 hundred years, don’t you think that something could have gone wrong somewhere and perhaps things are not what Jesus wanted for the Church? That’s my point
 
Pinkyyy said:
I believe that the bible acutally is kind of silent on abortion - godly men prayed for their enemy’s children to be aborted. Exodus claims that the price for striking a woman and causing her to “miscarriage” is a fine - unless the wife (a born human) is killed, then the price is death. Don’t get me wrong, I am not for abortion. If you’re 15 and do something stupid, live with the consquences. It’s not meaning that you can go and do whatever you want. But not everything is so clear or black and white.

Inbetween those 3 hundred years, don’t you think that something could have gone wrong somewhere and perhaps things are not what Jesus wanted for the Church? That’s my point
Click to expand...
Thou shall not kill is pretty cut and dry…you know - DON’T KILL! I don’t see where the gray area could be - abortion is either killing or it isn’t. Some claim it isn’t, therefore not covered by the commandment. Others believe it is killing - therefore don’t do it…

Over the course of 300 years I don’t believe anything went wrong with the Church. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. I am comfortable with that guarantee, in fact I am so comfortable with that guarantee that after 2000 years I believe there is nothing wrong with the faith and morals taught by the RCC. (Yes I know about all the sinners in the Church who have done bad things in Her name, so you needn’t bring them up. Even with all those sinners, Her teachings on faith and morals have been infallible).

BTW - The Church doesn’t “make up” any new doctrine. The Church clearly defines doctrine when a controversy demands such definition.
 
AgnosTheist said:
That Deuteronomy 31:24-29 is no proof of errors in the bible. though there are.
Click to expand...
The Old Testament describes how Prophet Moses (pbuh) believed his people would corrupt the stipulations in the Old Testament after he had gone, and felt the need to protect the book:

After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the Lord while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and Earth to testify against them. For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made. (Deuteronomy, 31:24-29)

It needs to be made immediately clear that the people in question, who rejected the true faith preached by Prophet Moses (pbuh) and thus chose the path of degeneration, were dishonest and self-interested individuals. However, in addition to these people, no doubt there also lived a great many devout Jews, rabbis and men of religion in Judaism, who genuinely believed in Allah and sought to serve our Lord.

Allah reveals the existence of these sincere, virtuous Jews as follows in the Qur’an:

Among the people of the Book there are some who believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down to them, and who are humble before Allah. They do not sell Allah’s signs for a paltry price. Such people will have their reward with their Lord. And Allah is swift at reckoning. (Surah Al ‘Imran, 199)

In these corrupted sections of the Old Testament, the interference and influence of satan can be felt. When these are removed, what remain are those parts left undistorted by satan. This means that once these corrupted sections have been carefully eliminated, the authentic Old Testament can be obtained. (Allah best knows the truth.)

These remaining sections bring healing to the heart, and bestow light and well-being on the soul. As revealed in verse 44 of Surat al-Ma’ida, these are the parts that constitute “guidance and light.” The passages in the Old Testament you are reading are those compatible with the verses of the Qur’an and the Sunnah of our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), and represent the very wisest advice.

The Absence of Belief in the Hereafter in the Old Testament Indicates that the Text is Distorted

Belief in the Hereafter is an essential article of faith. There can be no faith without belief in the Hereafter. Without an Earthly environment of testing, the good and the bad all merge into one. This, in turn, is a denial of our Lord’s purpose in creating the world as transient and with imperfections, and of His infinite justice.

Divine justice—when the good are separated from the evil and everyone receives his or her just deserts—will take place in the Hereafter. The life of this world is a transitory place of testing. Nobody will be accompanied by the things of this world. Allah will manifest His justice in the Hereafter, and nobody will “be wronged by even the smallest speck” (Surat al-‘Isra, 71).

This is a provision of Allah’s justice. It is incompatible with the divine nature of Allah for anyone to engage in all kinds of immorality in this world and then not be duly rewarded in the Hereafter when the life of this world comes to an end. The faithful have an absolute belief in the Hereafter and until the final moments of their lives in this world strive in hope and fear to win Allah’s approval and protection from His chastisement.

Allah refers to believers’ faith in the Hereafter in the Qur’an:

. . . those who believe in the Unseen and establish prayer and spend from what We have provided for them; those who believe in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down before you, and are certain about the Hereafter. They are the people guided by their Lord. They are the ones who have success. (Surat al-Baqara, 3-5)

In the Qur’an, Allah also states that honest Jews also believe in the Hereafter:

They are not all the same. There is a community among the People of the Book who are upright. They recite Allah’s signs throughout the night, and they prostrate. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and compete in doing good. They are among the righteous. You will not be denied the reward for any good thing you do. Allah knows those who fear [and respect] Allah.” (Surah Al ‘Imran, 113-115)

continued…
 
References to the unbelievers being set apart from believers and to the existence of the Hereafter, when the frauds and those who truly believed in Allah will be revealed, appear in the Qur’an and also in the original forms of the Old Testament and the New Testament when they were first sent from the presence of our Lord. This fact is set out in verse 111 of Surat at-Tawba:

Allah has bought from the believers their selves and their wealth in return for the Garden. They fight in the way of Allah and they kill and are killed. It is a promise binding on Him in the Gospel, the Torah and the Qur’an and who is truer to his contract. (Surat at-Tawba, 111)

Hundreds of verses in the Qur’an contain information about the life of the Hereafter and Doomsday, while the Old Testament contains practically no passages concerning that Afterlife—a fundamental article of faith. For that reason, some Jewish sects believe that there is no Hereafter at all. Those few references to the Hereafter in the Old Testament can only be understood when considered together with the verses of the Qur’an.

Therefore, one of the main indications that the Old Testament has not been preserved in its complete and original form is the removal of belief in the Hereafter and its replacement with heretical passages to the effect the world will continue forever, but that life ends with death. (Ecclesiastes, 9:5-6; Ecclesiastes, 1:4)

Those who make such additions, who alter those passages that are inconsistent with their own worldly ambitions, are deceivers devoid of true belief. These distorted sections are most probably the result of initiatives by the atheists of the time and intended to justify their own immorality and worldly desires. Indeed, there are several references in the Old Testament to “false” prophets, who are shown to have uttered falsehoods in the name of Allah:

“Both prophet and priest are godless; even in my temple I find their wickedness," declares the Lord . . . Among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. . . . Therefore, this is what the Lord Almighty says concerning the prophets: “. . . from the prophets of Jerusalem ungodliness has spread throughout the land.” This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. They keep saying to those who despise Me, “The Lord says: You will have peace.” And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, “No harm will come to you.” . . . I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied… “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. . . How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from Me. Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’…” “…I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord. . . . But you must not mention ‘the oracle of the Lord’ again, because every man’s own word becomes his oracle. . . . You distort the words of . . . the Lord Almighty, our God.” (Jeremiah, 23:11-36)

These false religious figures mentioned in the Old Testament who lie in the name of Allah say that nothing will happen to them in return for their deeds against Him. This is one of the lies spoken by those who utter falsehoods in the name of Allah in order, in their view, to do away with belief in the Hereafter.

The Qur’an has been sent down as a scripture that rectifies all these deficiencies in the Old Testament, confirms the true statements within it, and sets out and eliminates the errors contained in the Old Testament.

Subjects that had become incomprehensible before have now been fully illuminated, and all heretical beliefs that were subsequently added have been purged away. Therefore, those parts of the Old Testament that are compatible with and confirmed by the Qur’an, are those belonging to the original, divine Old Testament—as Allah makes clear in the following verses:

When a Book does come to them from Allah, confirming what is with them—even though before that they were praying for victory over the unbelievers—yet when what they recognize does come to them, they reject it. Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers. (Surat al-Baqara, 89)

When they are told, “Believe in what Allah has sent down,” they say, “Our belief is in what was sent down to us,” and they reject anything beyond that, even though it is the truth, confirming what they have. Say, “Why then, if you are believers, did you previously kill the prophets of Allah?” (Surat al-Baqara, 91)
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:
If the Bible has been “corrupted”; which seems to mean that:
  • the texts have been altered so that they do not convey any clear meaning
  • they cannot be restored
  • the entire thing has been altered in that way & with those two results
    - if that is so, then the Bible cannot be mined for quotations that show it predicts the coming of Mohammed. So it is pointless to quote the Bible as predicting M.     Yet Ahmed Deedat does exactly that.
Two sites, two POVS:
**Something to make clear: Christianity is not purely a “religion of the book”. The importance of the Holy Bible in it is very great indeed, but the Bible is not as important as Christ Himself. So “defending the Bible” (not that it needs it !) is not everything - a Christianity with a Bible & no Christ would be no Christianity at all: it would be a husk 😦 a Christianity with Christ but no Bible, OTOH, though purely hypothetical, is not impossible. The Bible is a great means - but it is a means, & not the End, ****for which, for Whom, we exist. **

The Bible is known by its effects - it is not a book so much as a hurricane, a fire, a flood, a super-volcano:

Jeremiah 20:9:

If I say, "I will not mention him,
or speak any more in his name,"
(A) there is in my heart as it were a burning fire
shut up in my bones,
and((“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 20:9&version=47#cen-ESV-19432B”)**) I am weary with holding it in,
and I cannot.

Cross references:
  1. **If it had a million errors in it, the Bible would still be the Word of God, because its mission is to perform all that He Wills. Far from man sitting as judge upon it, the Bible judges man, by confronting him with the God Whose Power it mediates. It is not static like a picture, which can be appraised in an uncommitted way, but is dynamic, & calls for a reaction: & in doing so, is like Christ to Whom it witnesses. **

    **God works in power through the Bible - that He works, is what matters; the limitations of the means by which He works, do not change that. God honours His Word by making it fruitful: s****o details not related to that don’t really matter. **
Click to expand...

  1. I just want to say that this chapter of Jeremiah is one of my favorites. I sometimes feel like him.
 
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