Is Billy Joel song offensive?

[fix]

wabrams:

No, it really is “just life.” Life isn’t fair, it isn’t always fun. It’s an observation of how it really is. If people want to use that for an excuse for their bad behavior, then that’s their problem. Raise your kids right, teach them right and wrong, teach them about God, and things like this won’t matter.

That is not true. It is not enough to have good parents. Take a look around at our failing culture. We need sweeping changes. Our mandate from Christ is to go into the world and help change it. Speaking up against lousy, Catholic bashing songs is one small way to help stop the coarsening of this world.

 

[jeffreedy789]

My father put his foot down and said absolutely not. His reasoning was that it’s a movie that glorifies prostitution. Although I was less than happy with him at the time, I now agree completely. If you depict a prostitue “hooking” a high class business exec and then turning into some sort of fairy princess for it, what are you really saying?

i’m glad you brought this up. because it, i think, very effectively brings up the OTHER side of the argument.

to me, pretty woman is a beautiful story. it is, in fact, (in my mind, anyway) a version of the woman caught in adultery story from the gospels.

this woman (played by julia roberts) is saved from her life of prostitution (like many, many people find themselves in, despite their own desires or beliefs) by the genuine love of someone who wants good things for her.

does it paint prostitution in a positive light? a bit, perhaps. julia and her friends seem very fun and happening, rather than sad and ‘used’, as prostitutes generally really are.

but the overall STORY, the MESSAGE, is one of redemption. the girl is saved from the hell of her life as a prostitute by true love.

to me, a great MESSAGE can be couched in a gritty SETTING (like ‘sin city’, for example) and still be a great work of art.

but a BAD message (such as 'kids who lie and steal will be rewarded for doing so and never get caught or punished) couched in even a positive, fun setting (like the harry potter books and movies) is a greatly inferior work of art, and in a sense, a lie, due to the lack of veracity in the message.

thoughts?

 

[surfinpure]

jeffreedy789:

i’m glad you brought this up. because it, i think, very effectively brings up the OTHER side of the argument.

to me, pretty woman is a beautiful story. it is, in fact, (in my mind, anyway) a version of the woman caught in adultery story from the gospels.

this woman (played by julia roberts) is saved from her life of prostitution (like many, many people find themselves in, despite their own desires or beliefs) by the genuine love of someone who wants good things for her.

does it paint prostitution in a positive light? a bit, perhaps. julia and her friends seem very fun and happening, rather than sad and ‘used’, as prostitutes generally really are.

but the overall STORY, the MESSAGE, is one of redemption. the girl is saved from the hell of her life as a prostitute by true love.

I can see that side of the story. Sort of. I wouldn’t be as bothered if Julia’s character didn’t gain her redemption by bedding the right guy. (Jesus didn’t sleep with the adulteress before redeeming her!) So I have to say, I still think the bad outweighs the good in that case. But I do see your point.

 

[fix]

jeffreedy789:

i’m glad you brought this up. because it, i think, very effectively brings up the OTHER side of the argument.

to me, pretty woman is a beautiful story. it is, in fact, (in my mind, anyway) a version of the woman caught in adultery story from the gospels.

this woman (played by julia roberts) is saved from her life of prostitution (like many, many people find themselves in, despite their own desires or beliefs) by the genuine love of someone who wants good things for her.

does it paint prostitution in a positive light? a bit, perhaps. julia and her friends seem very fun and happening, rather than sad and ‘used’, as prostitutes generally really are.

but the overall STORY, the MESSAGE, is one of redemption. the girl is saved from the hell of her life as a prostitute by true love.

to me, a great MESSAGE can be couched in a gritty SETTING (like ‘sin city’, for example) and still be a great work of art.

but a BAD message (such as 'kids who lie and steal will be rewarded for doing so and never get caught or punished) couched in even a positive, fun setting (like the harry potter books and movies) is a greatly inferior work of art, and in a sense, a lie, due to the lack of veracity in the message.

thoughts?

So-called Rap music is a huge success partly because so many legitimize it by claiming it is “authentic” and therefore must be good and true.

It comes down to the meaning of art in its various forms. Is entertainment “good” no matter the message?

 

[surfinpure]

fix:

That is not true. It is not enough to have good parents. Take a look around at our failing culture. We need sweeping changes. Our mandate from Christ is to go into the world and help change it. Speaking up against lousy, Catholic bashing songs is one small way to help stop the coarsening of this world.

Who was it who said, “The only thing necessary for evil to prosper is that good people do nothing?” In any case, I agree. We have to speak up while we’re still free to do so in this country.

 

[wabrams]

fix:

That is not true. It is not enough to have good parents. Take a look around at our failing culture. We need sweeping changes. Our mandate from Christ is to go into the world and help change it. Speaking up against lousy, Catholic bashing songs is one small way to help stop the coarsening of this world.

So life isn’t messed up and unfair? Songs tell us about the unfairness, not to accept it (rap and pop being the exception). Music can help vocalize the things we are feeling, the uncertainty, the defeat, etc. It helps remind us we aren’t alone in our struggles. Obviously this doesn’t replace Christ, but it does help us.

 

[wabrams]

fix:

So-called Rap music is a huge success partly because so many legitimize it by claiming it is “authentic” and therefore must be good and true.

It comes down to the meaning of art in its various forms. Is entertainment “good” no matter the message?

Rap is just god awful, well, whatever you want to call it, b/c it certainly isn’t music.

 

[fix]

wabrams:

So life isn’t messed up and unfair? Songs tell us about the unfairness, not to accept it (rap and pop being the exception). Music can help vocalize the things we are feeling, the uncertainty, the defeat, etc. It helps remind us we aren’t alone in our struggles. Obviously this doesn’t replace Christ, but it does help us.

I do not disagree with this. I was speaking specifically about songs intended to give poor messages.

 

[wabrams]

This is the way I see it: if you don’t like it, turn it off. Don’t won’t your kids to see it, don’t let them. But don’t subject the rest of us to that kind of censorship.

 

[fix]

wabrams:

This is the way I see it: if you don’t like it, turn it off. Don’t won’t your kids to see it, don’t let them. But don’t subject the rest of us to that kind of censorship.

Censorship? We better define our terms first.

The song in question was boycotted if I remember correctly. That is not censorship. I think the best way to change our culture of death and relativism is to stop supporting junk. Only the Good Die Young is an example of junk.

 

[jeffreedy789]

Who was it who said, “The only thing necessary for evil to prosper is that good people do nothing?”

Edmund Burke said ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’

 

[wabrams]

fix:

I do not disagree with this. I was speaking specifically about songs intended to give poor messages.

Rap: crappy message. Pop music: gag me. Billy Joel??? I don’t think it’s meant to rip on Catholics, just telling a story that happened to involve a Catholic. He attacked her views and it didn’t work.

 

[wabrams]

fix:

Censorship? We better define our terms first.

The song in question was boycotted if I remember correctly. That is not censorship. I think the best way to change our culture of death and relativism is to stop supporting junk. Only the Good Die Young is an example of junk.

Yeha, but how big was that boycott? A few stations here and there? Or a massive boycott like the Beatles experienced?

Like I said, you don’t like it, turn it off.

 

[fix]

wabrams:

Rap: crappy message. Pop music: gag me. Billy Joel??? I don’t think it’s meant to rip on Catholics, just telling a story that happened to involve a Catholic. He attacked her views and it didn’t work.

Where does the song say it did not work? Even if it did not work, the result is a song that bashes Catholics.

 

[fix]

wabrams:

Yeha, but how big was that boycott? A few stations here and there? Or a massive boycott like the Beatles experienced?

Like I said, you don’t like it, turn it off.

Size was not the issue in the post you refer to. Turning it off is only part of the solution. Are you Catholic? Do you think it good that our society continues to generate filth? Do we have an obligation to speak up, or are we to turn to religious ghettos?

 

[surfinpure]

wabrams:

This is the way I see it: if you don’t like it, turn it off. Don’t won’t your kids to see it, don’t let them. But don’t subject the rest of us to that kind of censorship.

WHOA! Back up the camel, man. Nobody’s talking about censorship.

A personal question asked in the meekest, mildest tone possible: Is this thread getting to be a bit emotional for anyone? Who would have thought, Billy Joel! Can anybody imagine what would be flying through the air if we’d brought up Michael Jackson, or Britney Spears?!

 

[wabrams]

fix:

Where does the song say it did not work?

It was stated earlier that he wrote this song about a girl he knew in his youth and failed with.

fix:

Even if it did not work, the result is a song that bashes Catholics.

If it was about a girl of another faith, but you get this upset?

 

[jeffreedy789]

i heartily disagree with the mentality of ‘if you don’t like it, turn it off’.

while it works to a limited extent with your own life or family, it is essentially a ‘burying of our heads in the sand’.

you can’t live life like that. if you just avoid the things that you find offensive, and ‘live and let live’, you’re doing two very dangerous things.

one - you’re allowing your culture to destroy itself. you’re relegating people to hell. you’re abandoning your responsibility to be ‘salt and light’ in the world, and allow the redemption that God has begun in your soul to affect the world around you.

two - you’re assuming that you can live in an isolated, ‘island’ existence. that those who are doing these things that you’re ‘turning off’ are just going to stay away from you and yours, and not affect your lives.

cs lewis talks about this in ‘mere christianity’. he says that we MUST look after one another, esp in the area of morality. the reason is likened unto a fleet of ships. if each captain only pays attention to his own ship, and ‘minds his own business’ in regards to what goes on with the engines and steering aparati on the other ships, then eventually there are going to be problems as the engines and guidance systems of the other ships cause them to lose control and sink the other ships, too.

thoughts?

 

[jeffreedy789]

A personal question asked in the meekest, mildest tone possible: Is this thread getting to be a bit emotional for anyone?

i think that there IS an argument going on in the thread, but that’s not the only thing here.

 

[wabrams]

fix:

Size was not the issue in the post you refer to.

Yes, size is the issue.

fix:

Turning it off is only part of the solution. Are you Catholic? Do you think it good that our society continues to generate filth? Do we have an obligation to speak up, or are we to turn to religious ghettos?

I hope to become Catholic in the next year. Filth? What are you, the moral police? Speak up, but remember to pick and choose your battles.