Is Birth Control Valid in certain circumstances?

[Warrior1979]

But the fact it is abortifacent at all, small possibility or not, makes the Pill morally problematic for Catholics and others opposed to the direct killing of innocent human life.

It’s actually using naturally occurring hormones, which creates naturally occurring events, including miscarriage. Except in the case of the pill usage, miscarriage occurs less.

Are you saying that abortion and miscarriage are exactly the same thing?

No, but I’m not sure that I’d define the situation you describe as an abortion, because the same exact thing occurs with or without the pill and for the same exact reasons. This is not the same as, say, a metallic IUD which is completely unnatural and changes uterine chemistry in a completely unnatural manner.

As the mother of two miscarried babies, I find that flagrantly offensive. You are essentially accusing me of killing my children, and I can assure you that nothing is further than the truth.

It is completely improper and disingenuous to put words in ones mouth and make inflammatory accusatory statements. I said no such thing, but you made this up to support your position.

 

[wanner47]

Contraception should be implemented if predicting a woman’s period is not effective. To have more than four children is irresponsible, selfish, and abusive.

That is absolute bull. I know plenty of mothers with 4+ children, and they are all happy, healthy, non-abusive families that reduce, reuse, and recycle in an attempt to be frugal, and that leave much less of a carbon footprint than the family of four in the McMansion with two SUV’s.

 

[Chrono13]

Because most women don’t HAVE a “standard pattern” for the month, and so we’re taught to chart anything that might affect our cycle. I ovulate any time from day 17-day 25, sometimes later. It’s not consistent at all.

I sincerely doubt you chart every flu or stress situation which might affect your circle. Even if you do, you can’t predict how they affect your body. Will they shorten your ovulation? Prolong it? Move the circle? Change your mucus?

Have you taken an NFP class? Have you read “The Art of Natural Family Planning” or “Taking Charge of Your Fertility”?

No. But since I am Catholic, be assured that I have knowledge of these techniques. It’s not really rocket science.

So many Catholics divorce but don’t remarry… which affects the divorce rate how?

You can’t ignore the fact that staying single for the rest of spouse’s life is something desirable to anybody. Since they don’t want to plunge in such situation , Catholic couples with bad marriage stay together for the fear of solitude (or lack of financisl aid etc.) This is primary reason why divorce rates are low. Not stability given by NFP.

If that’s the case, why is the divorce rate so high as it is? Why do Planned Parenthood’s own statistics state that 54% of abortive women were contracepting at the time they became pregnant?

Divorce rate is high for many reasons. Most are of sociological nature, not biological one.
Women who were contracepting didn’t want child in the first place. They would commit abortion even if they would use NFP.

If contraception is the panacea that ensures happy marriages, why has it proven to be EXACTLY the opposite?

I pity a man who thinks contraception or NFP will make his marriage better. I don’t think these techniques have such influence over people who love each other.

 

[wanner47]

It’s actually using naturally occurring hormones, which creates naturally occurring events, including miscarriage. Except in the case of the pill usage, miscarriage occurs less.

The dosages of (artificial) hormones in the Pill are NOT naturally occurring unless a woman is pregnant. That’s what the Pill does – it mimics pregnancy to inhibit ovulation.

No, but I’m not sure that I’d define the situation you describe as an abortion, because the same exact thing occurs with or without the pill and for the same exact reasons. This is not the same as, say, a metallic IUD which is completely unnatural and changes uterine chemistry in a completely unnatural manner.

If an abortion occurs while a woman is on the Pill, it is because the artificial and unnatural level of chemical hormones of the Pill have altered the uterine lining so that implantation cannot occur. It is the same mechanism used by the IUD.

It is completely improper and disingenuous to put words in ones mouth and make inflammatory accusatory statements. I said no such thing, but you made this up to support your position.

Then please tell me, if abortion and miscarriage are exactly the same, how I did not kill my miscarried children (in your view).

 

[wanner47]

I sincerely doubt you chart every flu or stress situation which might affect your circle. Even if you do, you can’t predict how they affect your body. Will they shorten your ovulation? Prolong it? Move the circle? Change your mucus?

That’s why you look at all your fertility signs and try to determine how exactly it’s affecting your cycle. If you’re in Phase I, stress or illness will likely delay ovulation. If you’re in Phase II and ovulation has occurred, it may affect the luteal phase. Some medications or diet changes can affect cervical mucous or cycle length, and there are books, such as Fertility, Cycles, and Nutrition by Marilyn Shannon that detail some of these issues.

No. But since I am Catholic, be assured that I have knowledge of these techniques. It’s not really rocket science.

If you have not taken an NFP class or read the books, there is no way that you can be at all knowledgeable about NFP. It’s much more intricate, detailed, and scientifically accurate that you seem to be aware of.

You can’t ignore the fact that staying single for the rest of spouse’s life is something desirable to anybody. Since they don’t want to plunge in such situation , Catholic couples with bad marriage stay together for the fear of solitude (or lack of financisl aid etc.) This is primary reason why divorce rates are low. Not stability given by NFP.

And your proof of this is…?

Divorce rate is high for many reasons. Most are of sociological nature, not biological one.
Women who were contracepting didn’t want child in the first place. They would commit abortion even if they would use NFP.

I’m glad you agree that contraception leads to abortion. However, NFP requires constant communication between couples, which improves one’s relationship, making it less likely that a couple who experience a surprise pregnancy would abort due to relationship problems.

I pity a man who thinks contraception or NFP will make his marriage better. I don’t think these techniques have such influence over people who love each other.

Are you married?

My husband, and many other husbands, can attest otherwise.

 

[caoindealbhan]

Did you only ask the mother, or did you also ask the children? Last I checked there are only 24 hours in a day. If a person works from 9 to 5 that leaves 4 hours of quality time to devote to offspring. If there are 4 children you get to give each 45 minutes of quality time (I’m taking time out for relaxing and dinner, with an assumption of 9PM bedtime.)

Let’s do the math.

5 children get 36 minutes each
6 children get 30 minutes each
7 children get 25 minutes each
etc…

 

[Warrior1979]

Then please tell me, if abortion and miscarriage are exactly the same, how I did not kill my miscarried children (in your view).

I am discussing an issue, and I refuse to be brought into an argument discussing your personal situation, which has been presented in emotionally charged and inflammatory manner. And to attempt to bring someone into such an argument is extremely disingenuous.

 

[Chrono13]

If an abortion occurs while a woman is on the Pill, it is because the artificial and unnatural level of chemical hormones of the Pill have altered the uterine lining so that implantation cannot occur. It is the same mechanism used by the IUD.

In that case, we indeed should not use hormonal treatment for curing chemical inbalance of woman.

 

[wanner47]

You are mistaken. For Church, sexuality had two ends: procreation and ease of temptation. The second one, according to then current theology, came after the fall of Adam. The only natural reason for sexuality is procreation, and this stance was the only one prior to 19th Century. A lot of bizarre theological phenomena is linked to it, but for now, let’s just repeat that Catholic Church saw no connection between sexuality and love of the spouses. You could have loved woman, without having relations with her.

As I mentioned, Church stance begun to crumble in 19th Century. Main reason is probably secular pressure. It would be difficult for Church to defend the idea that sex is only for procreation after French Revolution changed the situation in the field. The bizarre problem is that bishops simply chose to ignore the original teaching, leaving Church vulnerable to criticism.

Church taught that sex is only for procreation, and each intercourse must be done with intent of begetting a child. Relations on infertile day were not forbidden, if the intent was begetting. But if you are having intercourse on the infertile day-because it is infertile day- you are sinning. This was the teaching until 19th Century.

I started a new thread for these posts…

 

[wanner47]

Did you only ask the mother, or did you also ask the children? Last I checked there are only 24 hours in a day. If a person works from 9 to 5 that leaves 4 hours of quality time to devote to offspring. If there are 4 children you get to give each 45 minutes of quality time (I’m taking time out for relaxing and dinner, with an assumption of 9PM bedtime.)

Let’s do the math.

5 children get 36 minutes each
6 children get 30 minutes each
7 children get 25 minutes each
etc…

Many mothers of large families don’t work and homeschool their children.

Furthermore, quality of time is more important of quantity of time.

I work 7-4 and have a 1-hr+ commute each day. I assure you I spend plenty of quality time with each of my children.

Are you saying that parents who work should not have children at all, since they are unable to spend X amount of time with them? What about military families where the father is deployed for months if not years on end? Should they be disallowed from having children since they cannot spend X amount of time with their kids every day?

 

[wanner47]

I am discussing an issue, and I refuse to be brought into an argument discussing your personal situation, which has been presented in emotionally charged and inflammatory manner. And to attempt to bring someone into such an argument is extremely disingenuous.

Are you refusing to answer the question because you realize where your logic leads?

If abortion and miscarriage are the same thing, and abortion is murder, then mothers of miscarried children have murdered their children. That is where your logic leads.

 

[wanner47]

In that case, we indeed should not use hormonal treatment for curing chemical inbalance of woman.

Ah, but then you must take the principle of double effect into consideration.

 

[caoindealbhan]

The real question is “Do I have the resources to properly raise children to become adults?” If people do have less money and less time, then the answer does follow that they should have fewer children. Children are not house plants or pets that can be neglected through time. Somehow they will survive. People require a lot more one on one attention and personal care.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[wanner47]

The real question is “Do I have the resources to properly raise children to become adults?” If people do have less money and less time, then the answer does follow that they should have fewer children. Children are not house plants or pets that can be neglected through time. Somehow they will survive. People require a lot more one on one attention and personal care.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And some people have adequate money and adequate time for 4+ kids. It’s called discernment.

What you need to realize is that quality of time is much more important than quantity of time. You can spend 24/7 with your kids but if you ignore them in favor of the TV, vs. the mom who spends 30 minutes per day playing and reading stories to her kids, who do you think will be the better-adjusted family?

 

[EvelynEVF]

Chrono, NFP is extremely effective when used properly. It is far more effective than using a hat, as you put it. We have free will about how many children we want to have and when, and it absolutely matters! There are certainly oopses with NFP, but when people really need to not conceive, and are very careful to deny themselves, they don’t conceive. That’s the difference between user error and method error.

God does not drop babies out of the sky, or cause women to conceive when they are not fertile. He lets us choose, and we may choose to have more or fewer children than would be best.

If I’m reading you correctly, you’re saying that NFP doesn’t matter, and our free will doesn’t matter, because God will give the babies regardless. I totally disagree.

 

[Chrono13]

Ah, but then you must take the principle of double effect into consideration.

And considering double effect, are we coming to conclusion that it is morally acceptable to threaten child’s life to cure hormonal disorder?

 

[Chrono13]

That’s why you look at all your fertility signs and try to determine how exactly it’s affecting your cycle. If you’re in Phase I, stress or illness will likely delay ovulation. If you’re in Phase II and ovulation has occurred, it may affect the luteal phase. Some medications or diet changes can affect cervical mucous or cycle length, and there are books, such as Fertility, Cycles, and Nutrition by Marilyn Shannon that detail some of these issues.

Words “*likely *delay ovulation” or “it *may *affect your luteal phase” are sufficient for me to draw an argument. First, you usually don’t know is something affecting your fertility. Second, if it does, you don’t really know how.

If you have not taken an NFP class or read the books, there is no way that you can be at all knowledgeable about NFP. It’s much more intricate, detailed, and scientifically accurate that you seem to be aware of.

If it makes it easier for you, consider me lacking in that field. For me, I believe my knowledge is sufficient at least to counter your arguments.

And your proof of this is…?

Isn’t it obvious? Do you think practical Catholics divorce as much as those who don’t know “Our Father”? Why is that? Because of NFP?

I’m glad you agree that contraception leads to abortion.

I have never said anything that would even suggest that.

However, NFP requires constant communication between couples, which improves one’s relationship, making it less likely that a couple who experience a surprise pregnancy would abort due to relationship problems.

I simply disagree. How can constant talk about fertility increase stability of relationship? If one sees value in such conversations, sure. But that is just another topic pair can talk about.

I mean, people like theatre, and talk about theatre. If they don’t commit abortion, will they say it was because of Broadway?

Are you married?

My husband, and many other husbands, can attest otherwise.

No. But I have read too many testimonies of the married which gave me second thoughts.

 

[Chrono13]

Chrono, NFP is extremely effective when used properly. It is far more effective than using a hat, as you put it. We have free will about how many children we want to have and when, and it absolutely matters! There are certainly oopses with NFP, but when people really need to not conceive, and are very careful to deny themselves, they don’t conceive. That’s the difference between user error and method error.

God does not drop babies out of the sky, or cause women to conceive when they are not fertile. He lets us choose, and we may choose to have more or fewer children than would be best.

If I’m reading you correctly, you’re saying that NFP doesn’t matter, and our free will doesn’t matter, because God will give the babies regardless. I totally disagree.

You do not have free will to chose number of children. You only have free will to be open (or closed) to God’s will of that number. He will take care of anything else. If you are open to life, you will not beget a child which is not God’s will. And you will beget every child He wants.

Look- to be honest. It is obvious that pair having relations only on infertile days will have less kids then those who have them on fertile days. But one has yet to see how can the latter be irresponsible, since God created those kids. And how the former are responsible, even tough they have done something to “change the outcome”.

 

[EvelynEVF]

*Words “likely delay ovulation” or “it may affect your luteal phase” are sufficient for me to draw an argument. First, you usually don’t know is something affecting your fertility. Second, if it does, you don’t really know how. *

Yes, one does know, if one is charting fertile symptoms and temps. TMI alert: I can have a stressful day and watch my fertile mucus dry up and stay away until things are better settled, and then it will come back and I will have a normal looking set of fertile days followed by ovulation. The better I cope with the stress, the smaller the change. Stress is likely to delay ovulation, and the “likely” is there because every woman deals with situations differently.

 

[Chrono13]

*Words “likely delay ovulation” or “it may affect your luteal phase” are sufficient for me to draw an argument. First, you usually don’t know is something affecting your fertility. Second, if it does, you don’t really know how. *

Yes, one does know, if one is charting fertile symptoms and temps. TMI alert: I can have a stressful day and watch my fertile mucus dry up and stay away until things are better settled, and then it will come back and I will have a normal looking set of fertile days followed by ovulation. The better I cope with the stress, the smaller the change. Stress is likely to delay ovulation, and the “likely” is there because every woman deals with situations differently.

What happens if stress produces change in the body which makes mucus more dry, although ovulation is present?