Is Birth Control Valid in certain circumstances?

[EvelynEVF]

Then that mucus doesn’t support the sperm, which need a hospitable place to hang out until ovulation occurs. Women will typically make fertile-quality (eggwhite) mucus leading up to ovulation, so you get some warning. It could be anywhere from a few hours to a few days, and some women make none at all.

If there is no eggwhite mucus, the sperm die within hours. If there is lots of eggwhite, the sperm can live in the crypts of the cervix for five whole days, just waiting for ovulation.

(I debated adding this, but will go ahead: it’s in this in-between place, while the sperm are waiting, that ovulation could be derailed with a hormone therapy, in order to prevent conception from ever occurring, in case of rape. The fertile mucus would dry up and the sperm would die before they ever had the chance to get near an egg)

If you want to read a book with huge amounts of detail, try Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Wechsler. She isn’t Catholic, but she is respectful, and it’s the hardest core NFP book I’ve seen by far. She covers every possibility.

 

[Chrono13]

Then that mucus doesn’t support the sperm, which need a hospitable place to hang out until ovulation occurs. Women will typically make fertile-quality (eggwhite) mucus leading up to ovulation, so you get some warning. It could be anywhere from a few hours to a few days, and some women make none at all.

If there is no eggwhite mucus, the sperm die within hours. If there is lots of eggwhite, the sperm can live in the crypts of the cervix for five whole days, just waiting for ovulation.

If ovulation already occured, but mucus experiences change due to shock, conception will occur minutes after ejaculation. Not days

NFP is killing sperm… huh… sounds very similar to Onan’s sin.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Uh, what? Shock and stress don’t do much if it’s after ovulation. That’s a hormonal surge and when it’s done, it’s done, and the luteal phase begins.

Sperm have to get all the way through the cervix, through the uterus, and into the fallopian tubes. And once a woman has ovulated, the mucus dries up very quickly, normally, no shock needed. But yes, the most fertile time is usually right at ovulation, because then even women who don’t make much fertile mucus will have some, and the sperm don’t have to be nourished for a long wait.

An egg dies with 24 hours of ovulation if it is not fertilized. It’s actually an amazingly small window in which conception can occur

NFP is not killing sperm. That’s awfully close to saying that we can’t have sex unless we know that we are fertile, because otherwise the lack of mucus will kill the little swimmers.

Seriously, if you’re a reader at all, go read Taking Charge of Your Fertility. I’m thinking you’ve got to be male, because a lot of what I’m saying is just obvious to women, because we experience it, even if we’re not charting it. You might also learn a lot from The Biology of the Theology of the Body, which is a CD of a presentation. God made women to have an immune response to the sperm of any partner, for about the first six months. So He’s killing off sperm!

 

[Chrono13]

Uh, what? Shock and stress don’t do much if it’s after ovulation. That’s a hormonal surge and when it’s done, it’s done, and the luteal phase begins.

If shock and stress affect mucus or hormones before ovulation, it can lead to false signs of (in)fertility.

An egg dies with 24 hours of ovulation if it is not fertilized. It’s actually an amazingly small window in which conception can occur

Since sperm can last up to 5 days (even longer if mucus is healthy, or semen strong), it is much broader then that.

NFP is not killing sperm. That’s awfully close to saying that we can’t have sex unless we know that we are fertile, because otherwise the lack of mucus will kill the little swimmers.

The whole system of NFP is targeted to destroy the semen before ovulation. This is primary end of NFP.

Even if you are fertile, sexual activity doesn’t mean swimmer will get a prize. But if activity is done during infertile period for the sole reason of killing little swimmers, then this is problematic.

Seriously, if you’re a reader at all, go read Taking Charge of Your Fertility. I’m thinking you’ve got to be male, because a lot of what I’m saying is just obvious to women, because we experience it, even if we’re not charting it. You might also learn a lot from The Biology of the Theology of the Body, which is a CD of a presentation. God made women to have an immune response to the sperm of any partner, for about the first six months. So He’s killing off sperm!

Theology of the body is extremely problematic piece of work, once you get more into the story. But I will check your references.

God can kill anyone.

 

[EvelynEVF]

*If shock and stress affect mucus or hormones before ovulation, it can lead to false signs of (in)fertility. *

No. You’ve put the cart before the horse. Stress doesn’t really dry up mucus. Stress causes hormonal changes which reduce fertility, a true sign of which is the drying up mucus.

It’s not false signs at all–they are indicators of a real change. The ovaries will slow down the ripening of the egg and delay ovulation.

The whole system of NFP is targeted to destroy the semen before ovulation. This is primary end of NFP.

No. And the Church disagrees with you on that one.

The sperm may last for five days, but the conception window is very short, because the egg only lives 24 hours. So only the overlap needs to be considered.

I have work to do and can’t keep coming back to my computer, but I’m enjoying the discussion very much.

 

[Pumped4Christ]

I haven’t looked through all 163 pages of responses yet
What if the mother is going to die in childbirth, If there is a 100% chance?

 

[EvelynEVF]

Hi, Pumped4Christ!

You might want to check out Theology of the Body for Teens.

But in answer to your question, if a woman knows she would die, then of course she can avoid pregnancy! She’s just not allowed to do it by distorting the marital act. She and her husband may very well be called to permanent continence, which is certainly heroic virtue. Or if she has clear cycles, they can wait until after she ovulates and come together during the luteal phase, which is not fertile.

Yep, it’s hard. Realy, really hard.

 

[105lynne]

My husband is not a practicing Catholic, but I am. Birth control is always a hot topic in my house because he sees no difference in natural family planning (nfp) and contraception. This is how I explained it… First of all, think of 2 people on trial for murder. I person killed in self defense and the other had a detailed plan to torture and kill. The end result in both cases is murder, but the circumstances prior to it are COMPLETELY different. NFP versus contraception is the same type of thing. The end result is no pregnancy, but the means in which you go about it is different. Different, in that, contraception allows you to do what you want when you want. NFP requires discipline and sacrifice. We all remember the ultimate sacrifice–Jesus Christ. No one in history has ever suffered so for the love of others. This is a great example to us. An excellent way to show love is to sacrifice what you want for the good or better of others. We abstain from sex as a sacrifice for the greater good of our family. Is it easy? Hardly ever! Is it frustrating? Of course, but it is what is best for our family right now. We have four kids and CANNOT afford any more. If we are blessed with another, fine. We know that it’s God’s divine will at work and He will provide. Some people (my husband, too, sometimes) think that idea is primitive and naive. I say trusting God is the least naive thing I could do in my life. He hasn’t done me wrong yet, and I know He never will. I have no right to take a life. But I also have no right to try to prevent a life, either…

 

[Chrono13]

No. You’ve put the cart before the horse. Stress doesn’t really dry up mucus. Stress causes hormonal changes which reduce fertility, a true sign of which is the drying up mucus.

But isn’t it possible for stress to change the level of mucus during ovulation?

The whole system of NFP is targeted to destroy the semen before ovulation. This is primary end of NFP.

No. And the Church disagrees with you on that one.

I don’t think this is something one can agree or disagree with. The NFP observations are done in order to see when woman body will reject sperm.

The sperm may last for five days, but the conception window is very short, because the egg only lives 24 hours. So only the overlap needs to be considered.

Certainly not. If you have relations two days before the start of 24 hour period, sperm will survive in organism.

I have work to do and can’t keep coming back to my computer, but I’m enjoying the discussion very much.

Thank you. You are very respectful. It is enjoyment to share thoughts with such person.

I usually end up telling people who think NFP is junk, that it is not. And those who think it is near perfect , that it is not. :

 

[EvelynEVF]

I really stink at the whole quoting thing, so please bear with me. I’m going to put you in italics and me in normal font.

But isn’t it possible for stress to change the level of mucus during ovulation?

Stress changes hormones; hormones change mucus. The mucus is not independent of the hormonal changes that can delay ovulation. The mucus is only a sign of that change. And by the way, it is really easy to do this–taking a trip, losing sleep, stress at work, all of them can postpone ovulation for hours or days or even indefinitely.

i think your question is, “Can stress fake you out so that mucus looks infertile but ovulation isn’t delayed?” And then answer to that question is no.

*No. And the Church disagrees with you on that one.
I don’t think this is something one can agree or disagree with. The NFP observations are done in order to see when woman body will reject sperm.
*

NFP is a tool, and the woman/couple decide what they will do with information they gain. Using NFP to avoid conception is making sure that relations occur during the 75+% part of the month when they would die anyway. The default setting of a woman’s body is temporary infertility. It’s okay for sperm to die. The aren’t “alive” the way we define life (reproducing, breathing, eliminating, all that). It seems to disturb you that sperm die, but that’s 100% okay with the Church. Onan was busted not for killing the sperm but for defiling the marital act and defrauding his wife.

Certainly not. If you have relations two days before the start of 24 hour period, sperm will survive in organism.

Most likely, yes, but that isn’t conception. Conception occurs only in that 24 hours window, and that’s when we worry about life. There may be great mucus, but if there is no ovulation or a faulty egg, there is no overlap, and those poor swimmers die anyway, even if we were careful not to schedule their deaths.

I usually end up telling people who think NFP is junk, that it is not. And those who think it is near perfect , that it is not. :

Well, I agree with you wholeheartedly there! There is a lot of room for user error, and also many couples for who minimizing user error means a whole lot of abstinence.

 

[graceandglory]

But even using a morning after pill in case of rape is licit for a Catholic, provided it is known where she is in her cycle, so that it would prevent ovulation rather than cause abortion. Contraception is intrinsically evil, but in cases of rape, which is also intrinsically evil, it is permitted.

That is absolutely false.
If you stand by it, prove your source.

 

[graceandglory]

I haven’t looked through all 163 pages of responses yet
What if the mother is going to die in childbirth, If there is a 100% chance?

You kind of forgot to mention that, Pumped4Christ.
You should read the story of St. Gianna Molla, a 20th century married Saint. She died while giving birth to her third child. Her story is a remarkable testimony of the heroic virtue that is required in some extraordinary situations.

Remember, in all situations, it is all about our heart attitude and our trust in God.
Be open to miracles! In Blessed John Paul’s words, “Be not afraid! Open wide the door to Christ!”

 

[graceandglory]

But even using a morning after pill in case of rape is licit for a Catholic, provided it is known where she is in her cycle, so that it would prevent ovulation rather than cause abortion. Contraception is intrinsically evil, but in cases of rape, which is also intrinsically evil, it is permitted.

Dear EvelynEVP,
I’m in agreement with most of what you’ve written in this thread. I take objection here though when you say that it’s licit for a Catholic to use a morning after pill.

While some US bishops think it is, the Vatican has spoken.
lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2008/feb/08022906

It does take a heroic amount of virtue though for a woman to be open to life even in those circumstances. No, the circumstances weren’t holy, but then, neither is adultery or fornication. There is only an 8% chance of a fertile woman becoming pregnant from a rape. Even Jesus is from a genealogical line in which one woman was raped. (Tamar)

It’s a slippery slope to slide down, saying it’s okay in this one situation, to it being okay in so many others.

I personally know a married woman who with her husband are infertile. Coming home from a rally for Life, she was raped. She became pregnant. She gave birth to that baby and gave it up for adoption. She and her husband have never been able to conceive a child together. Certainly it takes a heroic amount of virtue to be willing to do that.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Since the Pontifical Academy of Life, in its statement opposing the morning after Pill, did not directly address the separate issue of being able to use hormonal therapy to derail ovulation and prevent conception completely apart from the risk of abortion, I do not believe the case is closed. What they say so far is, “No! Under no circumstances, including rape, because this is an abortifacient.” They clearly left enough room for the USCCB to make its statement, which, since it speaks for all the US bishops and they voted on it, would have been reviewed by the Vatican before publication.

Here’s a parallel question: Would it be licit to ask a rapist to wear a condom to reduce the chance of conception? No chance of abortion, there, so if that’s licit, then chemical/hormonal means ought to be just as licit.

Actually, though, since this is my professional field, I’m drafting a letter to the PAL, asking them to directly address the possibility and make a definitive statement. I have no idea if I will even get an answer, or how long an answer would take, but I’ll sure let you know if and when I get one!

(Yep, totally heroically virtuous to bear a child of rape, but I’m not at all convinced that it is a sin not to, if it can be done apart from abortion)

 

[Chrono13]

i think your question is, “Can stress fake you out so that mucus looks infertile but ovulation isn’t delayed?” And then answer to that question is no.

I believe that there are cases when it can. I am no doctor, by the way- but as you said, woman have different bodies and cycles. It is possible that outside factors can influence level of mucus, it’s density, hormonal level etc. After all, NFP is not perfect method of birth control.

NFP is a tool, and the woman/couple decide what they will do with information they gain. Using NFP to avoid conception is making sure that relations occur during the 75+% part of the month when they would die anyway."

NFP is a tool which has intent to make sperm destroyed. The whole charting and measuring thing is done in order to make woman’s body reject it out of the body.

If one intends to put his semen on the ground, he can do it with coitus interruptus, or with NFP (semen goes out of woman’s body one way or the other)- in both cases, one wants semen on the ground, and uses means to do so.

The default setting of a woman’s body is temporary infertility.

Now why would that be “default”? And why infertile period exists in nature?

Most likely, yes, but that isn’t conception. Conception occurs only in that 24 hours window, and that’s when we worry about life. There may be great mucus, but if there is no ovulation or a faulty egg, there is no overlap, and those poor swimmers die anyway, even if we were careful not to schedule their deaths.

I don’t know what you mean. If male with healthy sperm ejaculates in a female with healthy mucus, his semen can last up to 10 days before ovulation, meaning such couple has to abstinate 10 days before 24 hour period to avoid pregnancy.

 

[EvelynEVF]

My big question for you about sperm dying is SO WHAT? Onan got in trouble because he defrauded his wife, so I think that’s a red herring. The Church tells us it’s okay to practice NFP for serious reasons.

Women are infertile by default because most of the time, regardless of how many sperm are involved, they won’t and can’t conceive. So all those sperm die. Celibate men produce sperm who are just going to die. Men have nocturnal emissions which means more sperm die. Sperm dying is a regular and normal occurrence and it does not in and of itself carrying any moral weight at all.

I don’t see NFP-to-avoid as premeditated sperm murder. I see it as letting them live or die as they normally would had they not been interrupted by the presence of an egg to let exactly one of them live. And still, sperm lives have no moral weight.

 

[Chrono13]

My big question for you about sperm dying is SO WHAT? Onan got in trouble because he defrauded his wife, so I think that’s a red herring. The Church tells us it’s okay to practice NFP for serious reasons.

The problem is that you have performed something that has killed them (had relations on a specific day in order to get them killed). Onan did the same.

Women are infertile by default because most of the time, regardless of how many sperm are involved, they won’t and can’t conceive.

This depends on the view. A woman’s default fertility is not determined by her state in cycle, rather whether that cycle has fertile phase or nor. She is not by default infertile, just as we are not by default sleeping- and not awake.

So all those sperm die. Celibate men produce sperm who are just going to die. Men have nocturnal emissions which means more sperm die. Sperm dying is a regular and normal occurrence and it does not in and of itself carrying any moral weight at all.

However, some die because you did something to them. All people die of age, but that doesn’t mean you can do actions which kill them.

don’t see NFP-to-avoid as premeditated sperm murder. I see it as letting them live or die as they normally would had they not been interrupted by the presence of an egg to let exactly one of them live. And still, sperm lives have no moral weight.

But NFP is not letting them live or die, since the whole system is targeting their destruction. It’s like making a gun to shoot people, and say that you are letting them live or die after they are shot.

 

[EvelynEVF]

SPERM ARE NOT PEOPLE. There is no moral weight to letting them die (or, rather, avoiding letting exactly one of them live).

The Church tells us that NFP is moral, so she in her wisdom is saying it is perfectly okay, for grave reasons, to act in a manner that prevents sperm from living. Poor little guys.

Sheesh, if sperm mattered that much, then you couldn’t have sex during pregnancy, because there is no chance at all that any of them would make it. And, by the way, if you’re not having sex for whatever reason, they get reabsorbed by the body, and gasp DIE.

This reminds me of someone who made the comment on one of these threads, that “Every Sperm is Sacred” is from Monty Python, not the Catechism of the Catholic Church!

I won’t have internet access for a while, now, so I’m not giving you the cold shoulder, but I won’t be replying to anything for a bit.

 

[samiam1611]

If abortion and miscarriage are the same thing, and abortion is murder, then mothers of miscarried children have murdered their children. That is where your logic leads.

Wanner, in medical terms, abortion is the same as miscarriage. In moral terms, they are not. Another name for miscarriage is spontaneous abortion. (Abortion as we call it is medically termed an induced abortion.) Both a spontaneous abortion and an induced abortion are mean an embryo or fetus has been expelled or removed from the uterus. No one thinks that women who have had miscarriages murdered their children. For a relatively simple explanation, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Types

 

[wanner47]

Wanner, in medical terms, abortion is the same as miscarriage. In moral terms, they are not. Another name for miscarriage is spontaneous abortion. (Abortion as we call it is medically termed an induced abortion.) Both a spontaneous abortion and an induced abortion are mean an embryo or fetus has been expelled or removed from the uterus. No one thinks that women who have had miscarriages murdered their children. For a relatively simple explanation, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Types

Samiam, I’m well aware of the medical terminology. I wrote a series of blog posts about it, in fact. I have told my care providers that I never want my miscarriages referred to as spontaneous abortions, regardless of what it says on my chart, because I find that language outdated and offensive. Back when induced/procured abortion was extremely rare, it made more sense, but given the widespread incidence of deliberate procured/induced abortion in today’s society, the language really needs to be changed.

However, to say that induced/procured abortion and spontaneous abortion are exactly the same is like saying that there is no difference between watching your grandmother die of old age, and watching her die after shooting her in the head. The means are very, very different even if the ends are the same.

Regardless of what people may “think”, when they SAY that miscarriage and abortion is exactly the same, it is offensive because the implication is that I murdered my miscarried children. If they mean that the ENDS are the same, they need to be more clear in their comments.