Is bombing clinics and killing abortionists moral?

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grampben said:
Are those who kill workers in abortion clinics, bomb abortion clinics etc committing righteous acts?
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THIS is what you first posted, so if you added to and changed it along the way, it might do you well in the future to put it all in your beginning post.

Not all of us read every single post after the initial one. I, above, answered the question you first asked and spoke to your signature, excuse me!
 
grampben said:
Sorry but what does this have in relation to my original post?
I am in NO WAY pro killing abortionists. But I made the question because I am being told on this forum that interventionist war is totally moral BECAUSE it is killing to save the innocent. I disagree with this.
If one believes it is ok to kill to save the innocent, and one believes the unborn child to be innocent and the abortionist a killer…
understand?
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It is moral for a nation to make war on another nation when it does so to save innocent life – either of its own citizens or of its allies – provided war is used as a last resort or to stop an immediate threat.

Although you can make the same argument to defend the use of violence against abortionists, we live in a nation in which abortion is legal. We, as Catholics, are bound by the laws of our nation.
 
allhers said:
THIS is what you first posted, so if you added to and changed it along the way, it might do you well in the future to put it all in your beginning post.

Not all of us read every single post after the initial one. I, above, answered the question you first asked and spoke to your signature, excuse me!
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Yes, that portion of my signature can apply to the baby in the womb.
And thank you for asking my question.
 
RomeoCharlie said:
It is moral for a nation to make war on another nation when it does so to save innocent life – either of its own citizens or of its allies – provided war is used as a last resort or to stop an immediate threat.

Although you can make the same argument to defend the use of violence against abortionists, we live in a nation in which abortion is legal. We, as Catholics, are bound by the laws of our nation.
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Thanks for your response. I think it’s important that we look back to what Just War actually is, and you’ve summed it up pretty well 🙂
 
grampben said:
Sorry but what does this have in relation to my original post?
I am in NO WAY pro killing abortionists. But I made the question because I am being told on this forum that interventionist war is totally moral BECAUSE it is killing to save the innocent. I disagree with this.
If one believes it is ok to kill to save the innocent, and one believes the unborn child to be innocent and the abortionist a killer…
understand?
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I understand; your connection is false. It is not ok to kill to save the innocent unless, as the Church teaches us in the Catechism, **all other means have been exhausted and :
**
"The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good." (CCC 2309).

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Pecatoribus!

Mark
 
grampben said:
Thanks for your response. I think it’s important that we look back to what Just War actually is, and you’ve summed it up pretty well 🙂
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I think it’s important to note that it’s moral for a nation to make war on a threatening nation if there is a reasonable chance of success of stopping the threat to innocent life.

Violence against abortionists provides no reasonable chance of putting an end to abortion in our country. Hurting the abortionist is simply revenge (tit for tat). This makes Satan grin from horn to horn.

We Must Use other means to battle this evil.

Peace of Christ
 
There is a Just War Theory. I think St Augustine was he one who invented it…The Geneva Convention is based on his works

Sometimes war is justified but it should always be a last resort and never used as a means to oppress others
 
**"Rescue those who are being dragged to death, and from those tottering to execution wihdraw not.

If you say “I know not this man!” does not he who tests hearts perceive it?

He who guards your life knows it, and he will repay each one according to his deeds."**Proverbs 24:11

What a strange question to ask, and what a cop out on your part, OP. If I thought it would actually save any one or help in any way, I would invade the abortuary and start pulling plugs like my coworker did, back in the glory days in the 80’s. DS. She went to jail for six months and didn’t bat an eyelash. Friends and relatives helped take care of her kids.

I suppose you would consider that immoral, wouldn’t you? To heck with the poor babies who die in that horrible torture chamber.

It is attitudes like yours that keeps the killing machines running.
 
Poor Fr Groeschel was arrested just for saying a rosary on the sidewalk next to an abortion clinic . That odious Janet Reno targeted him as dangerous and put him on an FBI list of persons to watch

Before anyone tries to deny this…I heard it from him on his Sunday Night Live show
 
Ceil-1 said:
**"Rescue those who are being dragged to death, and from those tottering to execution wihdraw not.

If you say “I know not this man!” does not he who tests hearts perceive it?

He who guards your life knows it, and he will repay each one according to his deeds."**Proverbs 24:11

What a strange question to ask, and what a cop out on your part, OP. If I thought it would actually save any one or help in any way, I would invade the abortuary and start pulling plugs like my coworker did, back in the glory days in the 80’s. DS. She went to jail for six months and didn’t bat an eyelash. Friends and relatives helped take care of her kids.

I suppose you would consider that immoral, wouldn’t you? To heck with the poor babies who die in that horrible torture chamber.

It is attitudes like yours that keeps the killing machines running.
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Excuse me? I’m pro life…

As has been said, more murder does not end abortion.
 
No it is not moral. The Church is fairly clear about this as well, but if you read the Catachism article 5 on the Fifth commandment it does state that we are allowed and in some cases dutied to protect the innocent from being murdered.
 
If you see a person out on the street, about to kill a child, do you think it would be morally permissible to use deadly force against the would-be killer to save the child’s life? If you say yes (which I would say), how do you have a different answer when the killer is within the walls of an abortion clinic and the child is still in the womb? I’m not advocating killing abortionists, but I do think this is an apparent contradiction we need to resolve.
 
grampben said:
Are those who kill workers in abortion clinics, bomb abortion clinics etc committing righteous acts?
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Absolutely Not!!! All pro life work must be underpinned by love and Mercy even for the abortionist and his/her staff, otherwise it becomes just another form of “killing” no different than the practices of the abortion providers. Its just a matter of degree and nothing else.
GraceAngel.
 
We are to be in the world not of the world. Whatever states or others may do in the form of wars or other actions, gives no excuse for wrongdoing. Murder, lesser forms of violence, and unlawful destruction of property are wrong. Those who have resorted to such means to get public approval have usually accomplished little except to discredit whatever they are working for.
 
The_Iambic_Pen said:
If you see a person out on the street, about to kill a child, do you think it would be morally permissible to use deadly force against the would-be killer to save the child’s life? If you say yes (which I would say), how do you have a different answer when the killer is within the walls of an abortion clinic and the child is still in the womb? I’m not advocating killing abortionists, but I do think this is an apparent contradiction we need to resolve.
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It is a confusing thing to ponder. I can only hope that our courts will one day protect unborn children & give them their full human rights.It took how long to get rid of slavery in America?🤷 It won’t be overnight.
 
Grace_Angel said:
Absolutely Not!!! All pro life work must be underpinned by love and Mercy even for the abortionist and his/her staff, otherwise it becomes just another form of “killing” no different than the practices of the abortion providers. Its just a matter of degree and nothing else.
GraceAngel.
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I totally agree! And yet we have another thread asking is it moral to kill to protect one’s family. The conclusion from that thread was that the church says we have a moral duty to protect the innocent, even by using force.
My question is, if many of you guys believe it ok to use violence to protect a born child, what about an unborn child?
 
Sorry if I misunderstood, OP. Reasonable violence sufficient to stop the act from occurring is moral. Premeditated murder, not so. How I wish I had the guts to actually physically stop it. It bothers me deeply that we stand outside helpless, while they are in there murdering people as if they were a hang nail.

Instead of retreating and desisting the efforts, we should have redoubled our efforts and expressed the same anger, at least, that the Muslims do at every percieved offense.
Instead, we skulk around like whipped dogs, hoping for a scrap to fall our way.

There aren’t enough of us, and we care too little. Our consciences prick us enough to get out there once in a while, but when it comes down to it, we’re wimps. We do not live the Gospel of Life as we are called to. I am the first to accuse myself.

They can’t arrest us all, and put us all in jail all the time. Eventually, they would tire of it, and see we weren’t backing down, and were willing to risk everything for our fellow human beings. I believe if we had stuck to our guns in a unified fashion, we would not be in the predicament we are in now. It will be three times as hard to gain ground. Who knows, but that the rest of the nonsense we are putting up with would have been stemmed, if only we had stood our ground. The truth is, I was once on the other side of the issue… sort of. It was the witness of those fighting that caused me to think twice about it.

We need to get fired up and be willing to risk all. At least those of us who can be spared. (Not with small children, I mean). This is the defining issue of our age. The lion’s den of our times.

Gee whiz, somehow you’ve got me fired up.
 
Ceil-1 said:
Sorry if I misunderstood, OP. Reasonable violence sufficient to stop the act from occurring is moral. Premeditated murder, not so. How I wish I had the guts to actually physically stop it. It bothers me deeply that we stand outside helpless, while they are in there murdering people as if they were a hang nail.

Instead of retreating and desisting the efforts, we should have redoubled our efforts and expressed the same anger, at least, that the Muslims do at every percieved offense.
Instead, we skulk around like whipped dogs, hoping for a scrap to fall our way.

There aren’t enough of us, and we care too little. Our consciences prick us enough to get out there once in a while, but when it comes down to it, we’re wimps. We do not live the Gospel of Life as we are called to. I am the first to accuse myself.

They can’t arrest us all, and put us all in jail all the time. Eventually, they would tire of it, and see we weren’t backing down, and were willing to risk everything for our fellow human beings. I believe if we had stuck to our guns in a unified fashion, we would not be in the predicament we are in now. It will be three times as hard to gain ground. Who knows, but that the rest of the nonsense we are putting up with would have been stemmed, if only we had stood our ground. The truth is, I was once on the other side of the issue… sort of. It was the witness of those fighting that caused me to think twice about it.

We need to get fired up and be willing to risk all. At least those of us who can be spared. (Not with small children, I mean). This is the defining issue of our age. The lion’s den of our times.

Gee whiz, somehow you’ve got me fired up.
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Thanks for the response.

I suppose my intention is just to spark up dialogue :o
 
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