Is bombing clinics and killing abortionists moral?

[rvgirl]

No, it would epend on circumstances. Suppose the Obama administration were to decree that no family could have more than one child, that all others must be aborted. Then it is justified as a revolutionary act. as laid out in Jefferson’s preamble to the Declaration of Independence. Of course, we would at the extreme and under tyranny.

As Christians, our moral law is not the written laws of a country. We follow the laws of God and “Thou Shall Not Kill” is what we are obliged to follow. There are no other circumstances that condone it nor does the Bible say we are justified in killing as a “revolutionary act.”

 

[RomeoCharlie]

RomeoCharlie,
I am genuinely shocked to hear this statement. As Augustine said: “An unjust law is no law at all.” Therefore, we as Catholics are supported by over a millenium of Catholic moral philosophy in holding that abortion still is illegal.

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

-Adrian

I’m not a priest, deacon or apologist. I’m just a guy doing his best from the pews. But your statement about the great St. Augustine made me think immediately of Our Lord’s words after being questioned about the census tax, “Repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God” (MATTHEW 22:21).

The tax the Pharisees questioned Christ about was also unjust. Jesus understood this better than anyone. But He did not lead anyone into any type of protest, let alone a war of violence. Instead they were to accept the law and give their entire being to God Our Father.

Please understand I’m am not comparing the evil of abortion to taxes. I pray the rosary in front of an abortion clinic in Tempe, AZ. I am simply saying once a law is passed, it must be respected (or at least accepted) if we are to have any kind of a civil society. Of course, you can easily say a society that legally murders its children is NOT civil. This unfortunately would be a true and accurate statement. And by accept I do not mean we should be quiet. We must keep fighting the good fight, but our weapon of choice must be prayer before anything else. And any other weapon we use must be taken up prayerfully—with Our Compassionate Redeemer in our minds, on our lips, and in our hearts.

Abortion is the sin of sins, the evil of evil, but someone much holier than me once said that some things are so evil, that we can only battle them with prayer. (Not an exact quote.)

Peace of Christ

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Are those who kill workers in abortion clinics, bomb abortion clinics etc committing righteous acts?

Was Hitler doing a righteous act when he killed lots of Communists ? Same answer. Killing “baddies” is quite compatible with being a “baddy” oneself.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

It is absolutely forbidden to kill an innocent for any reason – including revolution. It simply cannot ever be done.

And the moment we ignore that, we are in a deep mess. Not many ethical positions are exceptionless - but that is.​

 

[adriancombe]

I’m not a priest, deacon or apologist. I’m just a guy doing his best from the pews. But your statement about the great St. Augustine made me think immediately of Our Lord’s words after being questioned about the census tax, “Repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God” (MATTHEW 22:21).

The tax the Pharisees questioned Christ about was also unjust. Jesus understood this better than anyone. But He did not lead anyone into any type of protest, let alone a war of violence. Instead they were to accept the law and give their entire being to God Our Father.

Please understand I’m am not comparing the evil of abortion to taxes. I pray the rosary in front of an abortion clinic in Tempe, AZ. I am simply saying once a law is passed, it must be respected (or at least accepted) if we are to have any kind of a civil society. Of course, you can easily say a society that legally murders its children is NOT civil. This unfortunately would be a true and accurate statement. And by accept I do not mean we should be quiet. We must keep fighting the good fight, but our weapon of choice must be prayer before anything else. And any other weapon we use must be taken up prayerfully—with Our Compassionate Redeemer in our minds, on our lips, and in our hearts.

Abortion is the sin of sins, the evil of evil, but someone much holier than me once said that some things are so evil, that we can only battle them with prayer. (Not an exact quote.)

Peace of Christ

For now we follow the Church’s guidance which is ‘conscientious objection’ i.e. peaceful resistance. (Evangelium Vitae).

If not for that, applying the just was theory to the situation - it would be a toss up, IMHO. One of the requirements for a just war is a reasonable chance of victory - and I am not sure that violent abortion fighters can make that claim.

IOW I agree with your conclusion, I just don’t want a Catholic forum using the statement ‘Abortion is legal’ to reach that conclusion.

 

[grampben]

Was Hitler doing a righteous act when he killed lots of Communists ? Same answer. Killing “baddies” is quite compatible with being a “baddy” oneself.​

FOR THE LAST TIME.

I am a near pacifist. I do not believe killing abortionists to be moral.

AGAIN

the purpose of this thread was to understand why we have a ‘moral duty’ to protect the innocents in Iraq by killing people, yet we don’t for killing abortionists.
I AM NOT ADVOCATING EITHER ONE.

 

[Axion]

Killing Abortionists is certainly not moral…

But destroying clinics without killing anyone is something that would have to be carefully looked at.

Just saying “Abortion is legal.” is no answer. Auschwitz was legal. But if you had the chance to blow up the gas chambers of Auschwitz without killing anyone in 1944, would you say: “No. We can’t do that. It’s against the law”? The same goes for the slave-escape “Underground Railroad” in the USA in the 1850. Absolutely illegal- but very moral.

If destroying an Abortion clinic saved lives, that action would present a severe moral dilemma in my opinion. If I were in an abortion clinic and could throw a switch that would put it out of action for a month, and so prevent 100 abortions, I’d be very tempted to do so.

Among the questions needing answers would be:

1. Would it actually save any lives? If the abortions would happen anyway somewhere else, it removes the rationality.
2. Is there a better method of stopping abortions. Education, political action. Or are those pathways closed off.
3. Would it provoke reactions that would make ending abortion less likely?
4. Conversely, might it make abortion chambers less profitable, and make people think about what they are doing…

That is what needs to be discussed.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Killing Abortionists is certainly not moral…

But destroying clinics without killing anyone is something that would have to be carefully looked at.

Just saying “Abortion is legal.” is no answer. Auschwitz was legal. But if you had the chance to blow up the gas chambers of Auschwitz without killing anyone in 1944, would you say: “No. We can’t do that. It’s against the law”? The same goes for the slave-escape “Underground Railroad” in the USA in the 1850. Absolutely illegal- but very moral.

If destroying an Abortion clinic saved lives, that action would present a severe moral dilemma in my opinion. If I were in an abortion clinic and could throw a switch that would put it out of action for a month, and so prevent 100 abortions, I’d be very tempted to do so.

Among the questions needing answers would be:

1. Would it actually save any lives? If the abortions would happen anyway somewhere else, it removes the rationality.
2. Is there a better method of stopping abortions. Education, political action. Or are those pathways closed off.
3. Would it provoke reactions that would make ending abortion less likely?
4. Conversely, might it make abortion chambers less profitable, and make people think about what they are doing…

That is what needs to be discussed.

Thank you for an honest take on the subject.
Another course might be more civil suits by women harmed in the clinics.

 

[Rleng616]

Killing abortionists is wrong -wrong - wrong

IMHO - Bombing clinics, or burning them to the ground is good - but only if no one is hurt. But how could you be absolutely sure that no one would be hurt? That would include police and fire personnel responding to the fire / bombing.

(I think that I just convinced myself that the risk of hurting someone by bombing / fire is to great to take a chance)

Bob

 

[atassina]

Destroying an abortion factory with no people in it is fruitless; you can’t eradicate a language by erasing a word. Bombing a clinic will make you seem like a savage-- because you are a savage. Killing the abortionists with a bomb is simply another form of abortion.

Abortion is a curse on this nation and on this world. We invited it because we didn’t oppose it. First contraception then abortion. Now people want to kill supposedly useless old people who are supposedly just using up resources. Contraception=Abortion=Euthanasia. You start bombing, you are simply another death bringer and life hater.

 

[joe_clark]

Killing abortionists is wrong -wrong - wrong

IMHO - Bombing clinics, or burning them to the ground is good - but only if no one is hurt. But how could you be absolutely sure that no one would be hurt? That would include police and fire personnel responding to the fire / bombing.

(I think that I just convinced myself that the risk of hurting someone by bombing / fire is to great to take a chance)

Bob

NOT a good idea. You cannot save anyone by blowing up buildings and murdering innocent people, even if you think the cause is just because: You become the monster.

PS: With 911 and the computer security measures utilized, I would not be suprised if the NSA wasn’t monitoring this site.

 

[grampben]

NOT a good idea. You cannot save anyone by blowing up buildings and murdering innocent people, even if you think the cause is just because: You become the monster.

Agreed. This is my opinion on war as well.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hello! There is no eye for an eye, for God is the judge of us all If we bomb or destroy something that we feel and even know is not right, we are not only reacting to our own personal feelings but we are letting these people die in their sins instead of helping them for the Lord. Their death and their sin’s will be on our hand’s! Love of Christ Nancy

 

[joe_clark]

Hello! There is no eye for an eye, for God is the judge of us all If we bomb or destroy something that we feel and even know is not right, we are not only reacting to our own personal feelings but we are letting these people die in their sins instead of helping them for the Lord. Their death and their sin’s will be on our hand’s! Love of Christ Nancy

Amen

 

[adriancombe]

Killing Abortionists is certainly not moral…

But destroying clinics without killing anyone is something that would have to be carefully looked at.

Just saying “Abortion is legal.” is no answer. Auschwitz was legal. But if you had the chance to blow up the gas chambers of Auschwitz without killing anyone in 1944, would you say: “No. We can’t do that. It’s against the law”? The same goes for the slave-escape “Underground Railroad” in the USA in the 1850. Absolutely illegal- but very moral.

If destroying an Abortion clinic saved lives, that action would present a severe moral dilemma in my opinion. If I were in an abortion clinic and could throw a switch that would put it out of action for a month, and so prevent 100 abortions, I’d be very tempted to do so.

Among the questions needing answers would be:

1. Would it actually save any lives? If the abortions would happen anyway somewhere else, it removes the rationality.
2. Is there a better method of stopping abortions. Education, political action. Or are those pathways closed off.
3. Would it provoke reactions that would make ending abortion less likely?
4. Conversely, might it make abortion chambers less profitable, and make people think about what they are doing…

That is what needs to be discussed.

Good questions! But for the record, if you are Catholic, abortion is NOT legal. If you doubt it, look up Evangelium Vitae, and when you open it, do a word search on ‘juridical’.

(Ausschwitz was not legal either - hence the Nuremberg trials.)

-Adrian

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Correct but Axion did make a good suggestion, Education, Is it possible for the schools to be able to run a video on what it looks like to have an abortion, for the male and female students to view? if we could nip it where it realy begins i think it would help save alot more lives. When you are young you can be reached better and life hasn’t taken as much out of you.( Their hearts are not as hard) I realy think if we could work on this, with differnt organizations it could be the start of something good. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[spectrm]

Correct but Axion did make a good suggestion, Education, Is it possible for the schools to be able to run a video on what it looks like to have an abortion, for the male and female students to view? if we could nip it where it realy begins i think it would help save alot more lives. When you are young you can be reached better and life hasn’t taken as much out of you.( Their hearts are not as hard) I realy think if we could work on this, with differnt organizations it could be the start of something good. Love of Christ Nancy

In my experience, this kind of ‘shock therapy’ only leaves kids bewildered. It has no real long term effects. I went through DARE and other forms of abstinence training and the fact is that, statistically, abstinence training doesn’t work. Moderation and safe practices are more effective at reducing unwanted pregnancies, disease, and promiscuous behavior.

Scaring someone will never do as good a job as showing them why they should be scared, telling them what they CAN do as an alternative, and giving them the tools to protect themselves should something happen.

I can teach my kid that ‘fighting is wrong and one should never do it’, but that won’t do anything at all to make him a more apt combatant or more skilled at conflict resolution, should the situation arise. The same goes for any activity.

For sure, teach the different viewpoints on when life begins and what conception means - no slant, no bias “Catholics believe . Protestants believe . Science says .”

If everyone would stop treating children like idiots who need to be instructed and scared out of something, instead conduct oneself around them as if they have a brain and a capacity for thinking, feeling, and learning - they just might develop a penchant for it.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of Wisdom and the fear of HELL is better then being there! All you have suggested was already tried for years, the fact is they dont know what to do anymore with the youths because Civil Liberty;s Union set’s the guide lines for MOM and DAD just last year a bunch of real intellegent kids in high school just decided to get pregnant to see who will have a baby first! I think a good scare is alot better then over looking the morals people don’t have anymore. God Bless Nancy

 

[spectrm]

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of Wisdom and the fear of HELL is better then being there!

Fear never leads to any semblence of knowledge of wisdom. Sorry that you have been misled. But I agree on the hell, note…not that most people believe there is one.

All you have suggested was already tried for years,

No it hasn’t…as I just stated, all of my ‘training’ to these effects has been abstinence training…nothing I have suggested has truly been tried anywhere but Europe, where it is working better than our programs.

the fact is they dont know what to do anymore with the youths because Civil Liberty;s Union set’s the guide lines for MOM and DAD

I disagree with a lot of the limitations on how one can raise a child, too. The fact is, if people used common sense and didn’t have kids when A) they can’t afford one, B) they don’t want one, and C) they don’t know what to do with one, there wouldn’t have been any need for any of the DCFS-related policies currently in-place.

just last year a bunch of real intellegent kids in high school just decided to get pregnant to see who will have a baby first!

For one, their behavior behooves their intelligence.

For two, the ‘plot’ to all get pregnant was a farce. It was a statement made by the principal to drum up support for the school’s position in the matter, which was that the students be forced to complete their school year at a different school. Sorry - you bought the hype.

I think a good scare is alot better then over looking the morals people don’t have anymore.

What do you define as a ‘good’ scare? To what other areas of education should we apply ‘scare tactics’?

I agree with you in principal, but clearly not in implementation. People haven’t FORGOTTEN morals. Some have become dated, others have become passe, and still others are frequently deemed ‘non-applicable’. Morality is a social and personal issue. Whether one believes there is an ‘absolute’ or not, the practice of morality will always be ‘non-absolute’, so long as it is practiced by humans, anyways. Social policies must respond to social behaviors. We can’t just start enacting social policies without consideration of whether or not they’ll be effective.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Did you ever hear the saying "Your so far out,Your back in? That is some people’s logic You are Loved. Skills with language is very effective for wageing the battle of the minds, But skills of a Christian out ways any battle in body, mind, and fields. Nancy