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Epistemes
Guest
Anyone who has read the works of Dietrich Bonhoeffer must find it hard to think that such a man could not be in heaven with Our Lord. Is in inappropriate to ask him for prayers like the canonized saints?
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LilyM
Guest
Saints aren’t just canonised because they are in heaven with God, they are also canonised because they are role models of Catholic faith and spirituality for us, due to the conspicuous virtue of their lives.
I for one would stick to praying to Saints who can teach me how to be a good Catholic and not just heavenly souls who can teach me only how to be a good Christian or a good person.
I for one would stick to praying to Saints who can teach me how to be a good Catholic and not just heavenly souls who can teach me only how to be a good Christian or a good person.
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b_justb
Guest
Because a dead good Christian or a dead good person that enjoys the beatific vision has inferior prayers as compared to a dead Catholic that enjoys that same vision?
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LilyM
Guest
It has nothing to do with the quality of their prayers, I never mentioned the quality of their prayers so I fail to see why you assume that I’m commenting on it at all. Rather with how relevant they are as rolemodels.
As I said the saints aren’t merely intercessors, but they also by their lives and example, are meant to help us to grow in our Catholic faith - to become better Catholics.
That’s an important spiritual need that Mr Bonhoeffer, good though he might be, simply can’t fulfil, and I’d rather pray to those who can.
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Della
Guest
We do not ask for the intercession of those we do not know are in heaven, Catholic or otherwise. In Bonhoeffer’s case, as in the case of C. S. Lewis or Ghandi and other non-Catholics, the Church has no authority to pronounce them saints, so we don’t ask for their intercession. Instead we pray for the repose of their souls as we do for all others who have died, whether we believe them to have been in the friendship of Christ or not.
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chewchoo
Guest
while he will never be a saint in the catholic church, saints still have to go thru a canonization process that involves people praying for their intercession prior to their official sainthood. those prayers bring about miracles that lead to canonization. so people do request the intercession of non-canonized dead people. whether or not you should pray to this particular person, i can’t comment on.
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LilyM
Guest
Actually we can - in order to even become a Blessed, an individual needs to perform at least one miracle unless they are a martyr for the faith. Such miracles are recognised precisely because they occur through prayer to that (unbeatified at the time and thus of uncertain spiritual locale) individual.
Mother Teresa certainly was prayed to before she was declared Blessed, the miracle that led to her being declared Blessed happened (as it necessarily had to) as a result of such prayer, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
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Epistemes
Guest
While it’s true that Bonhoeffer wasn’t Catholic, and he didn’t celebrate the sacraments like other good Catholic saints, nor did he submit to the rule of Rome, it does seem awfully backhanded to say that using him as an example of a true disciple of the loving, charity-working Christ isn’t quite up to par with what a true Christian life entails. I’m not advocating Gandhi or Buddha or other polytheistic or atheistic men or women as being paragons of virtue, but a brother in Christ.
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LilyM
Guest
Not ‘up to’ what true Catholic Christian life entails, no. I don’t mean this in a derogatory sense, more in the sense that a marathon running specialist isn’t quite ‘up to’ coaching a 100m sprinter or vice versa.
Remember we’re not just the same as all other Christians - and to whom much (and different) is given, of him will much (and different) be expected. Different standards for us, then, than for your Mr Bonhoeffer, or even for Gandhi or Buddha, for example.
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Della
Guest
Yes, but doesn’t the person have to first be pronounced a “servant of God” before any official intercessions are recognized? As I understand it, before that we can invoke God for the person’s canonization to go forward. I am always ready to be corrected.
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Della
Guest
That is not the issue, you see. The Catholic Church had no authority over him because he was a Protestant. You may recall the protest by some Jewish leaders when Edith Stein was canonized. They felt she died as a martyr to her Jewish heritage and not for her Catholic faith. Since she had converted to Catholicism, though the Church had the authority to canonize her no matter what she had been before. In the same vein, I can see some Protestants getting quite upset if the Catholic Church were to presume to declare Bonhoeffer a saint of the Catholic Church. We can use him as an example of Christian charity and martyrdom but we cannot invoke him as a saint of the Catholic Church.
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Mattapoisett64
Guest
I really want to remember that, at the time St. Maximilian Kolbe was canonized, John Paul II mentioned Bonhoeffer in the ceremony, saying something like " . . . and shares the same reward." I think there was a little controversy at the time because of how close this came to “canonizing” a non-Catholic. I haven’t been able to Google anything about this, though. Maybe someone with better research skills can find something. I find Bonhoeffer’s life very inspiring.
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