Is Bradley Manning a hero or a traitor?

[Robert_Sock]

But they were disobeying the law for moral reasons. I thought you were saying that your previous scripture citation made obedience to the law absolute. Am I wrong?

You are correct in saying that the early Christians were disobeying the law for moral reasons, but they did not take an oath as did Bradley Manning. In today’s world, disobeying your superiors because of perceived moral reasons ought to not be condoned. We do, however, have the moral responsibility as Catholics to obey the the great nation of the Vatican, which is above all other nations. This is basically what the early Christians were doing, obeying the teachings of Christ and the early Church. For this reason, I still consider the two passages to be incomparable; apples vs oranges.

 

[Brendan_64]

We do, however, have the moral responsibility as Catholics to obey the the great nation of the Vatican, which is above all other nations.

And when the Vatican make it clear that they view a war as unjust, yet our nations engage in such unjust wars, where do our loyalties lie?

 

[Robert_Sock]

And when the Vatican make it clear that they view a war as unjust, yet our nations engage in such unjust wars, where do our loyalties lie?

I never heard of the Vatican declaring any of our wars to have been unjust; can you please cite your source. My loyalties, again, is to obey the great nation of the Vatican. Next, the great nation of Israel. Next, our great nation. None of these nations have come out in support of Bradley Manning, but maybe you have a source that says otherwise.

 

[Gricken]

I never heard of the Vatican declaring any of our wars to have been unjust; can you please cite your source. My loyalties, again, is to obey the great nation of the Vatican. Next, the great nation of Israel. Next, our great nation. None of these nations have come out in support of Bradley Manning, but maybe you have a source that says otherwise.

I don’t know if there is a source on this. But I do seem to recall the Pope calling the Iraq war being called unjust. Can’t remember where I heard that though. If you want I’ll do some digging and try to find it.

 

[njlisa]

I never heard of the Vatican declaring any of our wars to have been unjust; can you please cite your source. My loyalties, again, is to obey the great nation of the Vatican. Next, the great nation of Israel. Next, our great nation. None of these nations have come out in support of Bradley Manning, but maybe you have a source that says otherwise.

Here is a video about the Vatican envoy who met with President Bush, whom he tried to dissuade from starting a war with Iraq.

youtube.com/watch?v=2CRfZg05IVE

 

[Robert_Sock]

Here is a video about the Vatican envoy who met with President Bush, whom he tried to dissuade from starting a war with Iraq.

youtube.com/watch?v=2CRfZg05IVE

Did the Vatican ever come straight out and declare the war to be immoral or unjust? It sounds like you may be reading into things, which is very dangerous, akin to the mess that Bradley Manning got himself into by believing he had a moral obligation to reveal classified information.
*
Romans
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.*

 

[Gricken]

Did the Vatican ever come straight out and declare the war to be immoral or unjust? It sounds like you you may be reading into things, which is very dangerous, akin to the mess that Bradley Manning got himself into by believing he had a moral obligation to reveal classified information.
*
Romans
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.*

If it wasn’t unjust, the envoy would not have tried to dissuade Bush.

You can keep posting that quote all you want, but it isn’t helping your point.

 

[njlisa]

Did the Vatican ever come straight out and declare the war to be immoral or unjust? It sounds like you may be reading into things, which is very dangerous, akin to the mess that Bradley Manning got himself into by believing he had a moral obligation to reveal classified information.
*
Romans
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.*

Pope John Paul II declared in 2003:

“Believers, whatever their religion, should proclaim that we will never be able to be happy opposing each other, and that the future of humanity can never be assured by terrorism and the logic of war,” the pope said.

natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives/030703/030703i.htm

In any case, I have produced that scripture “we ought to obey God rather than man” quote, so your Bible verse isn’t definitive.

So, in order to bring this back to the original post, Manning joined the service in 2007, well after the war began. He released many documents – rather than just a few. He also identifies as a humanist, not a Catholic. So he’s operating according to his own lights and not the teachings of the Church.

 

[Brendan_64]

Cardinal Ratzinger in 2002:

zenit.org/en/articles/cardinal-ratzinger-says-unilateral-attack-on-iraq-not-justified

Cardinal Ratzinger in 2003:

“reasons sufficient for unleashing a war against Iraq did not exist… proportion between the possible positive consequences and the sure negative effect of the conflict was not guaranteed. On the contrary, it seems clear that the negative consequences will be greater than anything positive that might be obtained."

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=758&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.30giorni.it/us/articolo.asp%3Fid%3D775

John Paul II in 2003:

"War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations… war cannot be decided upon . . . except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions.”

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=106&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/angelus/2003/documents/hf_jp-ii_ang_20030316_en.html

John Paul II just two days before the war began:

“There is still time to negotiate; there is still room for peace, it is never too late to come to an understanding and to continue discussions.”

"War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations” and reiterated that “war cannot be decided upon . . . except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions.”

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=24&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2003/january/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20030113_diplomatic-corps_en.html

John Paul II in 2004 during the war in a direct address to President Bush:

“You are very familiar with the unequivocal position of the Holy See in this regard, expressed in numerous documents, through direct and indirect contacts, and in the many diplomatic efforts which have been made since you visited me, first at Castelgandolfo on 23 July 2001, and again in this Apostolic Palace on 28 May 2002.”

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=643&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2004/june/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20040604_president-usa_en.html

 

[Robert_Sock]

Pope John Paul II declared in 2003:

“Believers, whatever their religion, should proclaim that we will never be able to be happy opposing each other, and that the future of humanity can never be assured by terrorism and the logic of war,” the pope said.

natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives/030703/030703i.htm

In any case, I have produced that scripture “we ought to obey God rather than man” quote, so your Bible verse isn’t definitive.

So, in order to bring this back to the original post, Manning joined the service in 2007, well after the war began. He released many documents – rather than just a few. He also identifies as a humanist, not a Catholic. So he’s operating according to his own lights and not the teachings of the Church.

Did the Vatican ever come out with an official statement saying that any of our wars were unjust? No! Again, you seem to be reading things that simply are not there.

Because Bradley Manning was not a Catholic, his allegiance ought to have been solely to the US government, instead of to his own conscience.

 

[njlisa]

Cardinal Ratzinger in 2002:

zenit.org/en/articles/cardinal-ratzinger-says-unilateral-attack-on-iraq-not-justified

Cardinal Ratzinger in 2003:

“reasons sufficient for unleashing a war against Iraq did not exist… proportion between the possible positive consequences and the sure negative effect of the conflict was not guaranteed. On the contrary, it seems clear that the negative consequences will be greater than anything positive that might be obtained."

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=758&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.30giorni.it/us/articolo.asp%3Fid%3D775

John Paul II in 2003:

"War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations… war cannot be decided upon . . . except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions.”

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=106&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/angelus/2003/documents/hf_jp-ii_ang_20030316_en.html

John Paul II just two days before the war began:

“There is still time to negotiate; there is still room for peace, it is never too late to come to an understanding and to continue discussions.”

"War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations” and reiterated that “war cannot be decided upon . . . except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions.”

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=24&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2003/january/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20030113_diplomatic-corps_en.html

John Paul II in 2004 during the war in a direct address to President Bush:

“You are very familiar with the unequivocal position of the Holy See in this regard, expressed in numerous documents, through direct and indirect contacts, and in the many diplomatic efforts which have been made since you visited me, first at Castelgandolfo on 23 July 2001, and again in this Apostolic Palace on 28 May 2002.”

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=643&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2004/june/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20040604_president-usa_en.html

Your research is excellent. Thanks for adding so much to the discussion.
:clapping:

 

[Gricken]

Did the Vatican ever come out with an official statement saying that any of our wars were unjust? No! Again, you seem to be reading things that simply are not there.

Because Bradley Manning was not a Catholic, his allegiance ought to have been solely to the US government, instead of to his own conscience.

So tell me, what would you consider an “Official statement”? Because these look pretty cut and dry to me.

 

[Brendan_64]

Because Bradley Manning was not a Catholic, his allegiance ought to have been solely to the US government, instead of to his own conscience.

So it is only in Catholics that conscience is preeminent? Has God singled us out in this regard? Or is it just because it is written in our Catechism, that this Law only applies to us, but not to others?

The Catechism is not simply made up of rules and regulations that apply to Catholics, it is made up of Truths from God.

CCC 1776:

“Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For** man **has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

Nowhere in this does it state that this applies only to Catholics and not other men.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Cardinal Ratzinger in 2002:

zenit.org/en/articles/cardinal-ratzinger-says-unilateral-attack-on-iraq-not-justified

Cardinal Ratzinger in 2003:

“reasons sufficient for unleashing a war against Iraq did not exist… proportion between the possible positive consequences and the sure negative effect of the conflict was not guaranteed. On the contrary, it seems clear that the negative consequences will be greater than anything positive that might be obtained."

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=758&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.30giorni.it/us/articolo.asp%3Fid%3D775

John Paul II in 2003:

"War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations… war cannot be decided upon . . . except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions.”

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=106&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/angelus/2003/documents/hf_jp-ii_ang_20030316_en.html

John Paul II just two days before the war began:

“There is still time to negotiate; there is still room for peace, it is never too late to come to an understanding and to continue discussions.”

"War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations” and reiterated that “war cannot be decided upon . . . except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions.”

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=24&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2003/january/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20030113_diplomatic-corps_en.html

John Paul II in 2004 during the war in a direct address to President Bush:

“You are very familiar with the unequivocal position of the Holy See in this regard, expressed in numerous documents, through direct and indirect contacts, and in the many diplomatic efforts which have been made since you visited me, first at Castelgandolfo on 23 July 2001, and again in this Apostolic Palace on 28 May 2002.”

catholicism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=catholicism&cdn=religion&tm=643&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=14&zu=http%3A//www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2004/june/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20040604_president-usa_en.html

Did the Vatican ever come out with an official statement saying that any of our wars were unjust? No! Therefore, our allegiance ought to be with the US government.

*Romans
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
*

 

[Gricken]

Did the Vatican ever come out with an official statement saying that any of our wars were unjust? No! Therefore, our allegiance ought to be with the US government.

*Romans
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
*

So what makes an “Official statement”? You have here the Pope telling the president that this is not a war he should be in. Are the words of the pope no longer “official” enough?

 

[Robert_Sock]

So it is only in Catholics that conscience is preeminent? Has God singled us out in this regard? Or is it just because it is written in our Catechism, that this Law only applies to us, but not to others?

Again, as Catholics our allegiance should first and foremost be to the nation of the Vatican. Because Bradley Manning was not Catholic, his sole allegiance ought to have been to the US government, this would be especially true since he took an oath.

 

[njlisa]

So it is only in Catholics that conscience is preeminent? Has God singled us out in this regard? Or is it just because it is written in our Catechism, that this Law only applies to us, but not to others?

Unless I am mistaken, paragraph 1780 of the Catechism addresses this question:
The dignity of the human person implies and requires uprightness of moral conscience. Conscience includes the perception of the principles of morality (synderesis); their application in the given circumstances by practical discernment of reasons and goods; and finally judgment about concrete acts yet to be performed or already performed. The truth about the moral good, stated in the law of reason, is recog**nized practically and concretely by the prudent judgment of conscience. We call that man prudent who chooses in conformity with this judgment.

Did the Vatican ever come out with an official statement saying that any of our wars were unjust? No! Therefore, our allegiance ought to be with the US government.

*Romans
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
*

With all due respect, I think you’ve been presented with more than enough evidence to at least consider another perspective. That quote from Romans does not trump all other (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Robert_Sock]

With all due respect, I think you’ve been presented with more than enough evidence to at least consider another perspective. That quote from Romans does not trump all other (name removed by moderator)ut.

I understand Bradley Manning’s perspective,and I truly sympathize with him, but I still think he was a traitor in the eyes of the law; he revealed classified information based on his own conscience, and we judged him according to the law. What was he ever doing in the military if he did not have an allegiance to our government? I believe he was guilty based on the law and biblical teachings. Yes, the Popes of late may have spoken out against the war, and there are teaching in the CCC that says that moral conscience should not be taken lightly, but I think you really need to be reading into things to think that Bradley Manning is some sort of a hero or that his actions were in any way justified.

 

[njlisa]

I understand Bradley Manning’s perspective,and I truly sympathize with him, but I still think he was a traitor in the eyes of the law; he revealed classified information based on his own conscience, and we judged him according to the law. What was he ever doing in the military if he did not have an allegiance to our government? I believe he was guilty based on the law and biblical teachings. Yes, the Popes of late may have spoken out against the war, and there are teaching in the CCC that says that moral conscience should not be taken lightly, but I think you really need to be reading into things to think that Bradley Manning is some sort of a hero or that his actions were in any way justified.

I never said he was a hero. (Check my original post.) He was very young and, by his own admission in court, he said he should not have released the documents.

I was merely joining in the chorus of people who said obedience to the government should not be unconditional. We are still bound by our conscience – as were the SS soldiers who killed innocent civilians. They took an oath too.

“I swear to you, Adolf Hitler, as Führer and Chancellor of the German Nation, loyalty and bravery. I vow to you and to my superiors designated by you obedience to the death. So help me God.”

I’m not defending Manning. I’m just saying that loyalty to the state can’t be unconditional.

 

[StJudeprayforme]

Again, as Catholics our allegiance should first and foremost be to the nation of the Vatican. Because Bradley Manning was not Catholic, his sole allegiance ought to have been to the US government, this would be especially true since he took an oath.

That is silly. Non-Catholics are bound by the moral law just as much as Catholics are. They are not bound by Canon Law, but since the issue in question here is not at all canonical, that doesn’t really matter.

The current and most recent wars the United States has been engaged in clearly do not meet the just war criteria. Manning released evidence that clearly demonstrated that to the world. The moral law that requires those in a position to help stop murder (which is what many of the actions of the US military in Afghanistan and Pakistan amount to) if at all possible trumps the oath that he took to the U.S. government. His efforts, and the efforts of others, have helped to shift public opinion against many of the atrocities that are going on in the Middle East now in the name of “national security”. I think that is a good thing.