Is breaching Terms of Service or End-User-Licence Agreements a sin?

[Pieman333272]

Is that a sin under lying? Also, if you genuinely believe (and can back it up) that the ToS or EULA is unjust, is it still a sin?

 

[turtle18]

Yes, it is a sin. It is considered theft of property. I picked up an Examination of Conscience from the Knights of Columbus once and this was listed as a sin under “Thou shall not steal.”

Of course, you may have a priest (especially if he is elderly) who has no idea what you are talking about when you mention this type of computer related sin.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Then, what about listening to an album on YouTube? Practically all music there is uploaded by unobserved and unapproved private users. Whole settings of the Mass by Palestrina and Mozart are free for the listening, put there by people who technically have no right. Should we not listen?

 

[Pieman333272]

Yes, it is a sin. It is considered theft of property. I picked up an Examination of Conscience from the Knights of Columbus once and this was listed as a sin under “Thou shall not steal.”

Of course, you may have a priest (especially if he is elderly) who has no idea what you are talking about when you mention this type of computer related sin.

But what about a case where you don’t gain, or if you do the company is not losing anything? Specifically I’m thinking about cheating on online games (not online poker or anything with cash).

 

[The_Long_Road]

Cheating is cheating and it is under the nature of fraud, and yes it is a sin. Basically it is lying. As it says in the book of Revelation, Chapter 21 verse 7-8 “But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

We are to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect and this follows to everything that we think is small as well. Sin is not the degree of relative severity that it holds in our mind. Sin is the deed whether small or large in our measure. Why? It is because we do not see the gravity of all ends and the measures of the repercussions of our deeds, so, in our estimation one sin may be graver than another. But to God all sin is an abomination. He gave us the ten commandments and the church states that these are the mortal sins. However, would you measure the act of being a coward as wrong as the act of murderer? Most would say no, but what does God say? It is clearly written above that they will meet the same fate.

Many questions that I see here being asked by people are questions trying to excuse away peoples sins instead of confront them for what they are with the resolution of attempting to eliminate them from our routine wrongs.

As always now, I recommend that you talk with your priest about it. If he does not understand then I feel that it is because you may be holding back the critical part of the true explanation, IE: that you are in essence committing fraud, cheating, and breaking legal and other agreements.

 

[Pieman333272]

Cheating is cheating and it is under the nature of fraud, and yes it is a sin. Basically it is lying. As it says in the book of Revelation, Chapter 21 verse 7-8 “But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

We are to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect and this follows to everything that we think is small as well. Sin is not the degree of relative severity that it holds in our mind. Sin is the deed whether small or large in our measure. Why? It is because we do not see the gravity of all ends and the measures of the repercussions of our deeds, so, in our estimation one sin may be graver than another. But to God all sin is an abomination. He gave us the ten commandments and the church states that these are the mortal sins. However, would you measure the act of being a coward as wrong as the act of murderer? Most would say no, but what does God say? It is clearly written above that they will meet the same fate.

Many questions that I see here being asked by people are questions trying to excuse away peoples sins instead of confront them for what they are with the resolution of attempting to eliminate them from our routine wrongs.

As always now, I recommend that you talk with your priest about it. If he does not understand then I feel that it is because you may be holding back the critical part of the true explanation, IE: that you are in essence committing fraud, cheating, and breaking legal and other agreements.

I’m not disputing that many things we think of as minor sins or non-sins are really major and mortal ones, but how does the case I mentioned fall under fraud? I mentioned that, in the example, either money was not involved or if it was there was no loss to any other party. I’m not trying to rationalize a sin I committed (if it’s a sin), I’m just asking how my act falls under this.

 

[The_Long_Road]

Stop lying to me and yourself. you are making legal binging agreements to use software or other intellectual property upon condition that you will not do certain tasks. Cheating defies the rules of a game even if they are unspecified. For instance almost all game servers have a standing rule that any other game bugs or other exploits are to be reported immediately and are not to be exploited to the players unfair advantage.

i will not waste any more of my time trying to convince you, or anyone else on this forum that what they are doing is a sin. They very reason that you people are asking others is not to find the truth, but to subvert the truth. You want other people to tell you, “It ok to cheat man, its ok to steal, its ok to lie”. But I will not do that.

 

[MarcusAndreas]

People actually read the TOS and EULA?

I suppose it can be depending on what you’re breaching. If it involves lying, stealing, etc. then yes of course it would be a sin.

 

[Pieman333272]

People actually read the TOS and EULA?

I suppose it can be depending on what you’re breaching. If it involves lying, stealing, etc. then yes of course it would be a sin.

(I actually don’t, I learn most about their contents from word of mouth in the respective community.)
But isn’t breaching the TOS at ALL lying, as you agree to do exactly what it says and not break its rules?

 

[Pieman333272]

Stop lying to me and yourself. you are making legal binging agreements to use software or other intellectual property upon condition that you will not do certain tasks. Cheating defies the rules of a game even if they are unspecified. For instance almost all game servers have a standing rule that any other game bugs or other exploits are to be reported immediately and are not to be exploited to the players unfair advantage.

i will not waste any more of my time trying to convince you, or anyone else on this forum that what they are doing is a sin. They very reason that you people are asking others is not to find the truth, but to subvert the truth. You want other people to tell you, “It ok to cheat man, its ok to steal, its ok to lie”. But I will not do that.

Excuse me, I asked a genuine question on the issue and I expected a genuine answer. How does cheating fall under fraud and stealing when there is no money involved, or, if there is, it is not at the loss of any party? Yes, I know it is common to rationalize sin, NO, that isn’t what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to find answers to my questions and this post was completely unhelpful to that goal.

 

[x1980x]

Excuse me, I asked a genuine question on the issue and I expected a genuine answer. How does cheating fall under fraud and stealing when there is no money involved, or, if there is, it is not at the loss of any party? Yes, I know it is common to rationalize sin, NO, that isn’t what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to find answers to my questions and this post was completely unhelpful to that goal.

This is my understanding of the morality of it:

I do believe that, in many cases, the Terms of Service constitute so called “Cover My Arse” (CMA) tactics where their real intent is that if you cause obvious trouble for them in a real way, then they have cause to take action against you, not that they care about every little trifling violation.

For example, many Internet Service Providers say you can’t run a server at home with their basic home service. Do they really care if you use your home PC to put up a server for one week and let a few extended friends and family download your little sister’s wedding photos? I’d say that in a real sense, they don’t. Remember that these are corporations that only have “intent” and “will” through legal fictions defined in law. You can’t hurt a corporation’s feelings or make it angry.

Now, if you are using your home internet service to run an e-commerce system and you are running 10 servers to handle all of your customer’s requests, then that clause in the contract allows them to shut your service off and ask you to pay for a Business account.

 

[tafan]

I’m not disputing that many things we think of as minor sins or non-sins are really major and mortal ones, but how does the case I mentioned fall under fraud? I mentioned that, in the example, either money was not involved or if it was there was no loss to any other party. I’m not trying to rationalize a sin I committed (if it’s a sin), I’m just asking how my act falls under this.

Did you agree to the terms of use? Then you signed a contract. If you now violate that contract, then it is fraudulent.

 

[tafan]

This is my understanding of the morality of it:

I do believe that, in many cases, the Terms of Service constitute so called “Cover My Arse” (CMA) tactics where their real intent is that if you cause obvious trouble for them in a real way, then they have cause to take action against you, not that they care about every little trifling violation.

For example, many Internet Service Providers say you can’t run a server at home with their basic home service. Do they really care if you use your home PC to put up a server for one week and let a few extended friends and family download your little sister’s wedding photos? I’d say that in a real sense, they don’t. Remember that these are corporations that only have “intent” and “will” through legal fictions defined in law. You can’t hurt a corporation’s feelings or make it angry.

Now, if you are using your home internet service to run an e-commerce system and you are running 10 servers to handle all of your customer’s requests, then that clause in the contract allows them to shut your service off and ask you to pay for a Business account.

Why does it matter if the other party cares if you (assuming you are the only one) does it? And how do you know? You sign a contract that said no server, then don’t do it. If you do, you are violating that contract. How can that not be sinful?

 

[x1980x]

Why does it matter if the other party cares if you (assuming you are the only one) does it? And how do you know? You sign a contract that said no server, then don’t do it. If you do, you are violating that contract. How can that not be sinful?

Because it is an illusory promise, a little white lie that everyone involved understands implicitly, if not explicitly. It is one of those things that we do that smooths things over so that the attorneys do not get their panties in a bunch. Remember, big corporations are looking at how to protect themselves from any avenue of attack, and attorneys insist on this stuff so that if the company is assaulted in a real way, they have a defense for whatever practical action they need to take to protect themself.

IANALNOP (I am neither a lawyer nor a priest)

 

[didymus]

People actually read the TOS and EULA?

I suppose it can be depending on what you’re breaching. If it involves lying, stealing, etc. then yes of course it would be a sin.

The A in EULA is for “agreement” which is a lie cuz if you ever read one (for $$$ware) they all say “terms may be changed without notice.” Some agreement.
x1980x is correct, the whole idea of EULAs & ToS is for corps to cover their butts and rip off their customers. They know customers can’t understand them and no two judges would interpret them the same way.

Last year or the year before someone noticed Google’s ToS claimed copyright for everything on Google’s servers – all Gmail, all Documents, Picassa, YouTube videos, &c, &c.
Of course, it was all a mistake, Google claimed.

Btw, software companies are perfectly aware that no one reads EULAs, or can. I used to make an effort but now I skim to see if it’s the usual boilerplate or just skip it. So for one (free) program I checked the “I Agree” box and it came back “0.24 Seconds … Wow, you’re a Fast Reader!”