Is breeding animals wrong?

[vz71]

You claim morality has changed since Christ…
So what part of morality has changed since Christ walked the earth?

You also claim that man has evolved to such a point that meat is no longer necessary for survival…
What evolutionary change has there been in humans since Christ walked the earth? Specifically the ones involving the need for meat, please.

My question remains unanswered.
You claimed an evolutionary change.
Name it.

I believe that you lose points in forensic debate when you have to have your opponent explain the meaning/definition of a word.

evolution: A process of change in a certain direction. A process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state. GROWTH. A process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance. A process of working out or developing…

from Webster’s

Not as many as I would for refusing to answer the question.

You specify evolutionary changes since Christ walked the earth…name them.

 

[JRKH]

Right. We should try to steer back to breeding. I think that the relevance is that we breed livestock for the purpose of eating them.

Agreed, and if we do steer back to the breeding issue we leave behind the discussion of conditions in feedlots, the use of hormones and antibiotics, and much of the environmentals damage caused by “factory farming” techniques.

But frankly I doubt if we will be able to prevent those other issues from coming back into the conversation. The reason is simple.
The actual fact. or activity of breeding is not wrong. However the consequenses of some of that breeding is more negative than positive. The reason some people don’t like breeding is not because of the act itself, but because of these negative consequences.

It should also be noted that the same people who feel that this intentional breeding is somehow interfering with the animals natural cycle, or that the animals kept for pets or for food purposes are not living a natural life, have no problem at all with the neutering of the animals which also interferes with their natural cycles.
Yes, I know the reason that such people support the neutering, and I have no objection to it either, but it seems to be a contradition to say on the one hand that keeping cows for food interferes with their natural life, and at the same time promote the mutilization of healthy animals and to remove from them healthy organsto prevent them from persuing their natural life.

You see - no one is immune from this wish to “interfere” with the natural world. One persons reasons are different than anothers. On persons justification is different from anothers. It simply depends upon the persons point of view.

Peace
James

 

[57classic]

Completely NOT TRUE. It takes roughly 16 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of meat. And the water that is wasted is astronomical!!!

To date, probably the most reliable and widely-accepted water estimate to produce a pound of beef is the figure of 2,500 gallons/pound. Newsweek once put it another way: “the water that goes into a 1,000 pound steer would float a destroyer.”

Did Newsweek bother to point out that every drop of water the steer urinated, and every drop of water not used by the grain plants, returned to the water table after filtering through the layers of the earth (just as the same water has recycled for millenia)? I thought not.

You continue to give only one side of the story because you will avail yourself of only information that you want to hear. We have debated this before on other threads. You will not move to the country and raise everything you need for yourself, including the soybeans you need for nurishment, yet you want to tell producers how it should be done for you.

Take politcal action against Cargill, ConAgra, and ArcherDanielsMidland. Those are the agribusiness that defy all monopoly laws, bribe legislators and continue to do business in the most objectionable ways, it will get worse if they manage to shove manditory animal ID down our throats because it WILL put all small farmers out of business which is their intent. Then all you will have in this country is largescale confined animal feeding operations, no organic producers at all to turn to.

As I recall, Marfran, you are employed at a zoo? IF I am right it is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Marfran]

Did Newsweek bother to point out that every drop of water the steer urinated, and every drop of water not used by the grain plants, returned to the water table after filtering through the layers of the earth (just as the same water has recycled for millenia)? I thought not.

You continue to give only one side of the story because you will avail yourself of only information that you want to hear. We have debated this before on other threads. You will not move to the country and raise everything you need for yourself, including the soybeans you need for nurishment, yet you want to tell producers how it should be done for you.

Take politcal action against Cargill, ConAgra, and ArcherDanielsMidland. Those are the agribusiness that defy all monopoly laws, bribe legislators and continue to do business in the most objectionable ways, it will get worse if they manage to shove manditory animal ID down our throats because it WILL put all small farmers out of business which is their intent. Then all you will have in this country is largescale confined animal feeding operations, no organic producers at all to turn to.

As I recall, Marfran, you are employed at a zoo? IF I am right it is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

57classic: And you raise animals for steak in a smaller operation, and treat your animals 1000% better than animals raised in intense confinement situations (factory farming). (And the steak animals generally fair much better than the dairy cows, chickens, and pigs anyway.) You are ABSOLUTELY correct–the big agribusiness companies are monopolies that bribe legislators and continue to do business in the most objectionable ways. (And it is the meat and dairy industries political and financial clout that pressures the USDA to come up with these phony food pyramids.) I don’t think that meat or animal products are healthy for humans, and they are not only not healthy, but are eaten in great excess. But if you can’t give up these products–at least switch to purchasing from smaller organic farmers. The animals are treated better and the animals are not pumped full of antibiotics and hormones.

As far as what I do for a living–it is very specific–I do work with animals, and I do have connections and associations with organizations who are animal friendly on the surface, but have some policies and philosophies which are definitely anti-animal. I try to work within these organizations to bring about change. As for zoos–that’s a whole different can of worms. Is it even wrong to have a zoo??? My answer, for the most part, is yes. But you need decent people working within these establishments to bring about change and prevent inhumane conditions there as well. We have lousy tin can zoos, and we have cageless wildlife parks like in SanDiego. The San Diego Wildlife Park is a better model of course. And I could tell you about some of the terrible things that zoos do–but that’s another thread…

 

[Ione]

It’s in the bible somewhere… I can’t remember where though

I’d have to see that one to believe it.

 

[Nicollle]

I don’t think animal breeding is inherently wrong. I do think irresponsible breeding is wrong, and I think most dog breeders are irresponsible, I’m not refering to people who breed police and seeing eye dogs, but backyard breeders who breed for profit while many dogs of the same breed and for the same purpose are dying in shelters. For example, there is not an overpopulation problem when it comes to Newfoundlands. If Newfie’s were no longer bred, the breed would most likely die out, and I think that would tragic. Those who breed them almost always do it to improve the breed. However, there is no reason to be breeding pit bulls. Shelters are filled with perfectly adoptable ones, and there is no reason for the breed to not go extinct. They were bred to be fighting dogs(although they can be good pets) while the Newfie’s purpose is a faithful companion with intellect like no other. They make wonderful therapy dogs. If people want a lab, beagle, or german shepherd they can go to a shelter though. Also, mixed breeds make great family pets.

I think ultimately the bigggest problem with shelters is that too many people are allowed to keep dogs that have not been spayed or neutered.

All the shelters around here spay/neuter every animal in their care and will not adopt out to anyone with unaltered animals.

 

[Marfran]

I don’t think animal breeding is inherently wrong. I do think irresponsible breeding is wrong, and I think most dog breeders are irresponsible, I’m not refering to people who breed police and seeing eye dogs, but backyard breeders who breed for profit while many dogs of the same breed and for the same purpose are dying in shelters. For example, there is not an overpopulation problem when it comes to Newfoundlands. If Newfie’s were no longer bred, the breed would most likely die out, and I think that would tragic. Those who breed them almost always do it to improve the breed. However, there is no reason to be breeding pit bulls. Shelters are filled with perfectly adoptable ones, and there is no reason for the breed to not go extinct. They were bred to be fighting dogs(although they can be good pets) while the Newfie’s purpose is a faithful companion with intellect like no other. They make wonderful therapy dogs. If people want a lab, beagle, or german shepherd they can go to a shelter though. Also, mixed breeds make great family pets.

All the shelters around here spay/neuter every animal in their care and will not adopt out to anyone with unaltered animals.

Good post! You must have a Newfie! I am not familiar with either Newfoundland’s nor Pit Bulls, specifically. I think that there are responsible Pit Bull owners that will defend their breed–but the fact remains that certain breeds have injured and killed humans and can pose a danger to society. There*** are ***many wonderful animals in shelters that need homes. And so many of them are destroyed while we keep breeding more.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

But frankly I doubt if we will be able to prevent those other issues from coming back into the conversation. The reason is simple.
The actual fact. or activity of breeding is not wrong. However the consequenses of some of that breeding is more negative than positive. The reason some people don’t like breeding is not because of the act itself, but because of these negative consequences.

It should also be noted that the same people who feel that this intentional breeding is somehow interfering with the animals natural cycle, or that the animals kept for pets or for food purposes are not living a natural life, have no problem at all with the neutering of the animals which also interferes with their natural cycles.
Yes, I know the reason that such people support the neutering, and I have no objection to it either, but it seems to be a contradition to say on the one hand that keeping cows for food interferes with their natural life, and at the same time promote the mutilization of healthy animals and to remove from them healthy organsto prevent them from persuing their natural life.

You see - no one is immune from this wish to “interfere” with the natural world. One persons reasons are different than anothers. On persons justification is different from anothers. It simply depends upon the persons point of view.

Peace
James

Exactly, and living inside houses, wearing collars, or eating foods prepared by man aren’t “natural”, either. Ditto for vaccines, flea treatments or worming.And the same could be said about dogs or cats living 15 or more years.Bet that wouldn’t happen much in nature, either.
Some breeding goes to extremes but breeders generally figure it out when there are genetic or reproductive issues that follow.

 

[thishippie]

Let’s take that logic to its conclusion and see where it goes…

Is it wrong to mix cement?
After all, we are taking the raw materials and making them what we want them to be.
Did God err?

Or even more basic…is it wrong to dig a hole?
After all, the hole wasn’t there before. We are changing the way God created it to suit our purposes.

What you just said is like comparing murdering a human to cutting down a tree. Dirt is very basic and contains no life but animals are far more complex and have life.

Dirt and cement cannot suffer.
-A pug can suffer life long respiratory problems and exophthalmos.
youtube.com/watch?v=q3lgJJjxw70
-The British bull dog can suffer from dystocia or be born with a twisted spine.
-Dachshunds suffer from prolapsed in-vertebral discs
There are numerous deleterious genes causing these health problems in every breed.

“Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.” -Proverbs 27:23:

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity -Ecclesiastes 3:19

There it is. Straight from the bible.

 

[thishippie]

I’d have to see that one to believe it.

That is hilarious because your signature quote says “Blessed are those who have not seen yet believed” do some googling I’m sure it can direct you to where it says that in the bible.

 

[thishippie]

Breeding causes far too many genetic mishaps to be a moral practice. It negatively impacts the lives of God’s living creatures.

Ecclesiastes 3:19
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity

Proverbs 12:10
Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.

 

[vz71]

Well, I am still here. But I do not know if the other posters here are still around or if they care to resurrect a long dead thread.

Either way, let’s play with the zombie (thread) for a while.

Dirt is very basic and contains no life but animals are far more complex and have life.

True, I can only give the response I gave years ago.

The logic behind the question in the OP does not differentiate between the creations of God, it only questions the sinfulness of changing God’s creation to suit our purposes.

Of course, if that response is not acceptable, then we can change it slightly.
Instead of mixing cement, how about mixing up the polio vaccine?
There is little doubt of the life of the ingredients in there.

 

[mary_bobo]

Breeding causes far too many genetic mishaps to be a moral practice. It negatively impacts the lives of God’s living creatures. Source please.

Ecclesiastes 3:19
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity

Proverbs 12:10
Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.

 

[Matilda_Bennett]

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