Is Buddhism Atheistic?

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It seems to me that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam [and possibly Zoroastrianism] are the only religions that rely on revelation from God. All the rest seem to be a search for the ultimate goal of life upon which to base a code of conduct.

A Buddhist friend once told me that his guru said the seeker, in which he included himself, must never disturb the man of faith. The man of faith has found a bit of the Truth which for which the seeker strives.

It was the same guru who told a Christian that he could become Buddhist, but he would always be a Christian. He said that Baptism puts a spark of Truth in one that can never be removed or lost. I like that definition.
 
True enough. The answer to the question of whether there exists a supernatural being who will judge us after death based on our adherence to a certain religions precepts is one that each of us are living out in our daily lives.
Are you saying the way we live reveals what we really believe? That is true to a large extent but we are not always consistent. Alas, we often fail to do what we believe is right and do what we believe to be wrong.
 
Are you saying the way we live reveals what we really believe? That is true to a large extent but we are not always consistent. Alas, we often fail to do what we believe is right and do what we believe to be wrong.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. Perhaps if we fail to do what we believe is right, we don’t completely believe it?

But back to the philosphical discussion we were having, pragmatists suggest that if you want to know what it means to believe something, you should focus on the consequences of holding that belief in lived experience rather than thinking about “mental states” as you would prefer to think of beliefs.

I wonder what sense we could make of the disputes between different Christian sects if we stop thinking of beliefs as mental states and start thinking about the consequences of holding beliefs in lived experience. I wonder how many of them are differences that don’t make a difference. Transubstantiation versus consubstantiation comes to mind. I bet as many theological problems get dissolved through pragmatism as philosphical ones, but since such disputes can only be articulated in terms of essentialist philosophy, I suspect that it will always be important for Christians to cling to Plato and Aristotle because they have a need to cling to such disputes.

Best,
Leela
 
Leela

I wonder what sense we could make of the disputes between different Christian sects if we stop thinking of beliefs as mental states and start thinking about the consequences of holding beliefs in lived experience.

I think it is in the forefront of every Christian’s mind that actions (or lack of) have consequences. Jesus says the same thing, warning that if we do not perform the right actions he could honestly say he never knew us. And that if we only live in a certain mental state (and make sure all the world knows it) we would be like whited sepulchers, apparently clean outside but rotten with sin inside.

Mental states are one thing, but without God truly at the center of them, they are more like exercises in futility.

I’ll never forget my first reading of Bertrand Russell’s The Pursuit of Happiness. At the time I had given up Catholicism, and Russell’s book seemed to have a great calming effect on me. I now see that it was rather temporary in that effect because, of course, there was no mention of God in his book. I think Russell in that respect was like the Buddhists. I’m no longer interested in happiness (peace) without God. It’s a chimera that, without the pursuit of holiness, is not worth following.
 
This reminds me of the Baptist who insists that Catholics believe in worshipping Mary. He simply doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Incidentally, if not “atheist,” what do you call someone who simply doesn’t believe in a God or gods?
An agnostic? Wich to me personally means that the question of wether or not (a)God(s) exist is moot entirely - as this question cannot be irrefutably resolved until any diety chooses to thrust the clouds aside, appear to each and every person on the planet, at the same time, and command to “Believe.”
 
Are you saying the way we live reveals what we really believe? That is true to a large extent but we are not always consistent. Alas, we often fail to do what we believe is right and do what we believe to be wrong.
If we don’t always do what we say we believe, I think it calls into question whether we really believe what we say we do.
 
Leela

*I guess if you can’t make up your mind as to whether you think gods probably do or don’t exist, you are an agnostic and neither an atheist nor a theist. *

I suppose theoretically this is true, but I’ll put money on the agnostic being a whole lot closer to the atheist than the theist, since in **all probability **he does not worship.
It’s not a matter of closer. These are just two different questions. Agnosticism concerns epistemology while atheism is about metaphysics.

You can be a gnostic theist, an agnostic theist, a gnostic atheist, an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic who can’t make up her mind either way.
 
If we don’t always do what we say we believe, I think it calls into question whether we really believe what we say we do.
You are correct in a sense. Very interestingly, psychology has often said that our actions define our beliefs more than the other way around. Cognitive Dissonance basically. Reality is always more complicated than just that of course, but our actions do play a much larger role in what we believe than most people think.
 
Leela

It’s not a matter of closer. These are just two different questions. Agnosticism concerns epistemology while atheism is about metaphysics.

I don’t disagree. But I don’t see any agnostics in Church, as I said before.
 
If we don’t always do what we say we believe, I think it calls into question whether we really believe what we say we do.
We sometimes believe an action is wrong with all our heart but we do it and then bitterly regret it. Our actions do not always reflect our beliefs.
Yet if we steal regularly in spite of claiming to believe it is wrong to steal we are either lying or deceiving ourselves. Belief is not simply rational assent to a proposition but also an orientation of our whole personality. Sometimes we cannot explain why we believe something but it does not follow that we are mistaken or irrational…
 
Leela

It’s not a matter of closer. These are just two different questions. Agnosticism concerns epistemology while atheism is about metaphysics.

I don’t disagree. But I don’t see any agnostics in Church, as I said before.
I wouldn’t be so sure of that since agnostics look just like gnostics in church. They sing the songs and say the prayers but don’t think that we can know for sure whether or not God exists. They are just betting that he does whereas I’m betting that he doesn’t.
 
Leela

*I wouldn’t be so sure of that since agnostics look just like gnostics in church. *

How do you know this? :confused:
 
Leela

*I wouldn’t be so sure of that since agnostics look just like gnostics in church. *

How do you know this? :confused:
Are you saying that you have some special ability to detect agnostics or that you doubt that any are their in church? I know many agnostics who attend church. Some of them just go to please their families. Some are devoted to their religions but just don’t believe that they can know for sure if they are right about God existing. I myself attend churches for weddings or baptisms when I am invited. I participate pretty much like everyone else. I like to see how well I still remember the creeds and stuff.
 
In a recent discussion at another thread the question came up: is Buddhism atheistic? I was told by an avowed Buddhist that it is not. But I’ve heard all my life that it is. William James, the American philosopher and psychologist, said over a hundred years ago that Buddhism is atheistic.

In the *Encyclopedia of Philosophy *it is reported:

“Briefly, then, the Buddha’s teaching amounts to a recasting of the atheistic tradition in early Indian thought, as exemplified contemporaneously in Jainism and later in classical Samkhya, an Indian philosophical system.” Ninian Smart

Can anyone add to this or correct it? Thank you.
As one who was a practicing Buddhist for many years, I’d have to answer this question with a “yes.” Sort of. There are many many types of Buddhism and there is absolutely no central authority within Buddhism. There are also no absolutes, hence, the absence of belief in a God. Even the gods are considered to be limited and finite beings who will one day use up their karma and be plopped back into the realm of samsara where they can generate more karma and one day get back to their god realm of being.

In the highest realms of Buddhist philosophy, the concept of God and gods is said to be transcended, unnecessary, or simply irrelevant. So in this sense, Buddhism is atheistic. Some Buddhists are not atheists, some are agnostic, and for some, the question simply does not arise. The Buddha himself gave contradictory answers to this question, framing his answer to suit the needs of his questioner.

For Buddhism in the strict sense, the question of the existence of God or gods is quite simply a distraction from the Buddhist goal, and that is to attain enlightenment.
 
From the perspective of Tibetan Buddhism, all this discussion is “conceptual”. They do not believe that there is an inherent reality outside of concepts. Even if they were to talk about a “diety” its not a reality like God is a reality to Christians, its an abstraction to illustrate a state of mind.

Everything in Tibetan Buddhism comes down to mind. There is nothing outside of mind except non-conceptual awareness.
 
Disciple96

As one who was a practicing Buddhist for many years…

Do you mind sharing with us what drew you to the Catholic Church?
 
In the West, atheism implies not only denial of a “theos”, but also a denial of an “afterlife”, or spiritual beings, or anything outside of the realm of scientifically measurable matter and energy.

If we take this more complete definition of “atheism”, then we have to conclude that Buddhism is not atheistic. Heck, even if we limit “atheism” to denial of a “theos”, Buddhism is not atheistic.

There are many ways to define what a “theos” is. Some of these “theoi” are rejected by Buddhism, and some are not.

One type of theos that Buddhism denies is a theos that (1) has created everything, where “everything” includes (2) both pleasure and suffering, good and evil, such that (3) the pleasure and suffering, or good and evil, that one experiences are due to the fact that theos wills or wants you to undergo such experiences.

The reason Buddhism denies the existence of a theos who has created everything, is that such an idea denies the importance of ethical behavior. In a cosmos where a theos has created everything, then everything is already predetermined, and moral behavior has no importance.

Of course, Christians (in general) don’t believe in a theos who truly creates everything, pleasure and pain, good and evil, as defined above. Instead, the Christian theos created free-will, and the mis-use of free-will introduces pleasure and pain, good and evil, into the cosmos.

Both Buddhism and Christianity believe in the importance of ethics. Buddhism protects such ethics, by denying a theos who creates everything. Christianity protects such ethics, by teaching a theos who does not create *everything.

*(Of course, if you’re Calvinist, what I just said might not apply to you.:D)
 
From the perspective of Tibetan Buddhism, all this discussion is “conceptual”. They do not believe that there is an inherent reality outside of concepts. Even if they were to talk about a “diety” its not a reality like God is a reality to Christians, its an abstraction to illustrate a state of mind.

Everything in Tibetan Buddhism comes down to mind. There is nothing outside of mind except non-conceptual awareness.
…which is of course the awareness from which mind arises.
 
Like Hinduism, Buddhism posits the belief in the transmigration of souls but, unlike Hinduism, Buddhism denied spiritual substance to the soul (which in my mind is confusing enough).
Buddhisms belief is more like you are a bundle of energy, no real “core” to your being… it’s not substantialist metaphysics. In fact all of reality is coreless, the Void or Emptiness at the root of everything, “turtles all the way down”. This is not based on logic, but on meditative experience.
Interestingly enough Mahayana believes that human aspirations are supported by divine powers and it includes petitionary prayer. The most interesting figure in Mahayana Buddhism is the ideal of the boddhisattva, a being, who having reached the brink of nirvana, voluntarily renounces the prize and returns to the world to make nirvana available to others. (rings a bit of a bell, I guess).
There are some themes similar to Christianity in Mahayana Buddhism. Particularly the idea of sacrifice, though they don’t legally spell out why sacrifice is better, it’s assume it’s a greater enlightenment in the end to forgo your own enlightenment altogether. It’s sort of like forgetting yourself totally.

Buddhism is more “head” oriented, whereas Christianity is “heart” oriented. The “heart” stuff in Buddhism is more confined to Taoist/Buddhist folk stories, like the Princess Miao Shan, an enlightened being with limitless merits and purity who empties Hell in one folk story, and sacrifices her eyes and hands to her evil father out of compassion to save his life, in her death she is transformed into her true form as a Taoist immortal or Buddhist bodhisattva (depending on who tells the story), and her father repents and becomes religious. Incidentally, she is the “Virgin Mary” figure of East Asian Buddhism, Guanyin or Kannon, sometimes depicted with 1000 arms, which has an esoteric meaning (the many ways that wisdom is manifest as compassionate activity).
“The rough, shorthand way of putting the difference is that the Christian pities men because they are dying, and the Buddhist pities them because they are living. The Christian feels sorry for what damages the life of a man; but the Buddhist is sorry for him because he is alive.” G. K. Chesterton
Yeah, well, I’d say with all respect to Mr. Chesterton, that’s uncharitable until you put yourself in the Buddhist worldview. Buddhism starts off acknowledging that life has alot of pain in it… if not for you, then somebody else. Christianity starts with the Fall, Buddhism starts with “Life is suffering”.

Theravada focused on something more like “annihilation” as Nirvana (which is where Chesterton got his ideas, probably from 19th century British intellectuals studying that as the “true” form of Buddhism at the time), Mahayana focuses on Nirvana as an “ocean of oneness”, an ineffable state of peace/bliss. Perhaps it is a similar idea to the Christian concept of love, there are limitations on human language so it’s impossible to say for sure, since you are talking about an extremely subjective experience. In practice, Mahayana focuses on an “awakened heart”, compassion, being “one” with other peoples suffering (and happiness, too).

The only issue for me with Buddhism… reincarnation. I never found I had a past life, and I honestly in the end didn’t believe in them. I believed in alot of the other stuff, I do believe Buddhists have discovered alot of spiritual truths. Reincarnation, however, tends to make the individual rather irrelevent, since there’s nothing distinctive about a person in the end. Plus, the scientific worldview, I felt, squares better with Christian ideas than Buddhist ones, in the end.

Christ: the Eternal Tao is a good book to read, though it is written from a Christian Orthodox perspective. There are aspects of Eastern religions that are closer to the Orthodox mysticism, Hesychasm, than to Catholic theology. In particular Orthodoxy focuses on apophatic theology alot which is very similar to the Buddhist concept of Emptiness. Hieromonk Damascene draws paralles between the Nameless in Taoism, and similar ideas in Orthodoxy. Another thing I’d compare Mahayana Buddhism to is Kaballah, the Orthodox Jewish theosophy. Many of the ideas are very similar, and both have an energetic metaphysics. Both Kaballah and Orthodoxy have an “enlightenment” of sorts as a goal.
 
Reincarnation, however, tends to make the individual rather irrelevent, since there’s nothing distinctive about a person in the end.
And, of course, a Buddhist would ask, “Can you show me this ‘person’ you refer to?”😃
 
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