Is Calvinism For Christ?

[Catholic4Jesus]

According to the teaching of Calvinism, God does not love everyone but only loves who He chooses to love. Christ did not die for all men but only for the elect. God doesn’t want everyone to be saved but rather He wants certain people to be saved while He wants others to be damned. They also believe that man does not have free will and therefore has no ability to willingly sin against God or serve Him, either God makes you serve Him or He makes you rebel against Him. They claim that if man had free will, then man would become more powerful than God. Unlike most Christian denominations teach “God hates the sin, but loes the sinner.” Calvinism teaches “God hates the sinner because of his sins.” They base their premise on reading verses of Scripture out of context like all Protestant churches do. They misread verses that say stuff like, “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated” “The fools shall not stand in Thine sight, Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” “Man cannot accept the Gospel unless the Father that sent Me draw them.” “…those who were chosen from eternity, not one will be added nor subtracted.” Excuse me for not quoting these verses, some of them I probably don’t even have worded right, but I don’t have my Bible with me right now, these are just a few things I remember Calvinists use to back up their premise.

Are there any passages out there in the Bible that prove that Calvinism is false and that teach that
-God loves all sinners but hates all sin
-God wishes for ALL to be saved
-Man has free-will
-Jesus Christ died for all sins of all men
-God does not predestine some to salvation but the rest to damnation
And what do those “verses” that I’ve quoted above actually mean?

 

[bzkoss236]

You can start here: scripturecatholic.com

 

[guanophore]

According to the teaching of Calvinism, God does not love everyone but only loves who He chooses to love. Christ did not die for all men but only for the elect. God doesn’t want everyone to be saved but rather He wants certain people to be saved while He wants others to be damned. They also believe that man does not have free will and therefore has no ability to willingly sin against God or serve Him, either God makes you serve Him or He makes you rebel against Him. They claim that if man had free will, then man would become more powerful than God. Unlike most Christian denominations teach “God hates the sin, but loes the sinner.” Calvinism teaches “God hates the sinner because of his sins.” They base their premise on reading verses of Scripture out of context like all Protestant churches do. They misread verses that say stuff like, “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated” “The fools shall not stand in Thine sight, Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” “Man cannot accept the Gospel unless the Father that sent Me draw them.” “…those who were chosen from eternity, not one will be added nor subtracted.” Excuse me for not quoting these verses, some of them I probably don’t even have worded right, but I don’t have my Bible with me right now, these are just a few things I remember Calvinists use to back up their premise.

Are there any passages out there in the Bible that prove that Calvinism is false and that teach that
-God loves all sinners but hates all sin
-God wishes for ALL to be saved
-Man has free-will
-Jesus Christ died for all sins of all men
-God does not predestine some to salvation but the rest to damnation
And what do those “verses” that I’ve quoted above actually mean?

Yes, there are many passages of the Bible that prove that Calvanism is false, but of course Calvanists have rationalizations for all of them (some quite sophisticated). Catholics interpret the Scriptures as the Apostles taught, in the light of the Teachings of Jesus through the Church. Calvanists have jettisoned this concept, so they can invent whatever meanings are suitable to boslter the doctrines invented during the Reformation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

According to the teaching of Calvinism, God does not love everyone but only loves who He chooses to love. Christ did not die for all men but only for the elect. God doesn’t want everyone to be saved but rather He wants certain people to be saved while He wants others to be damned. They also believe that man does not have free will and therefore has no ability to willingly sin against God or serve Him, either God makes you serve Him or He makes you rebel against Him. They claim that if man had free will, then man would become more powerful than God. Unlike most Christian denominations teach “God hates the sin, but loes the sinner.” Calvinism teaches “God hates the sinner because of his sins.” They base their premise on reading verses of Scripture out of context like all Protestant churches do. They misread verses that say stuff like, “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated” “The fools shall not stand in Thine sight, Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” “Man cannot accept the Gospel unless the Father that sent Me draw them.” “…those who were chosen from eternity, not one will be added nor subtracted.” Excuse me for not quoting these verses, some of them I probably don’t even have worded right, but I don’t have my Bible with me right now, these are just a few things I remember Calvinists use to back up their premise.

Are there any passages out there in the Bible that prove that Calvinism is false and that teach that
-God loves all sinners but hates all sin
-God wishes for ALL to be saved
-Man has free-will
-Jesus Christ died for all sins of all men
-God does not predestine some to salvation but the rest to damnation
And what do those “verses” that I’ve quoted above actually mean?

All to be Saved…

1 Timothy 2:4- who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9- The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Sinners and sin…

Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that thus there shall be joy in heaven for one repenting sinner, more than for ninety and nine righteous who have no need of repentance.

Luke 5:31-32 - They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick. I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

Free-will, there are many…

Josh. 24:15 - choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

Jesus died for all…God becoming the Son of Man, and freeing mankind from the death of sin, is the basis of the NT. Reason is Gods love of mankind, His creation. Do you suppose God has a twisted idea of love, a double standard of His Love for man? Love They Neighbor, as you do to the least of them, you do to Me. Love of His creation can be the only reason, no other stands to reason. What is the purpose?

1-Peter 3:18 - This is true because Christ suffered for our sins [mankind] once. He was an innocent person, but he suffered for guilty people [mankind] so that he could bring you to God. His body was put to death, but he was brought to life through his spirit. [all mankind was captive, that is why the 2nd person Trinity became man, to free ALL mankind]

Last is self evident from the first point, in other words… 1 Timothy 2:4- who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[Christian_Unity]

According to the teaching of Calvinism, God does not love everyone but only loves who He chooses to love. Christ did not die for all men but only for the elect. God doesn’t want everyone to be saved but rather He wants certain people to be saved while He wants others to be damned. They also believe that man does not have free will and therefore has no ability to willingly sin against God or serve Him, either God makes you serve Him or He makes you rebel against Him. They claim that if man had free will, then man would become more powerful than God. Unlike most Christian denominations teach “God hates the sin, but loes the sinner.” Calvinism teaches “God hates the sinner because of his sins.” They base their premise on reading verses of Scripture out of context like all Protestant churches do. They misread verses that say stuff like, “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated” “The fools shall not stand in Thine sight, Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” “Man cannot accept the Gospel unless the Father that sent Me draw them.” “…those who were chosen from eternity, not one will be added nor subtracted.” Excuse me for not quoting these verses, some of them I probably don’t even have worded right, but I don’t have my Bible with me right now, these are just a few things I remember Calvinists use to back up their premise.

Are there any passages out there in the Bible that prove that Calvinism is false and that teach that
-God loves all sinners but hates all sin
-God wishes for ALL to be saved
-Man has free-will
-Jesus Christ died for all sins of all men
-God does not predestine some to salvation but the rest to damnation
And what do those “verses” that I’ve quoted above actually mean?

This is an interesting thread considering that Calvinism is from Reformed theology. Since the doctrines of Calvinism also includes the 5 solas of the Protestant reformation, it seems this kind of thread makes perfect sense.

In the OP, there are many in the Catholic Church who would disagree with the summary above. In predestination, Catholic are allowed to have a wide range of views including a Thomas-Aquinas-Augustine view of things which refutes quite a bit of the statement above. Calvinism is very similar to the Thomas-Aquinas-Augustine understanding of things.

catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2009/08/misunderstanding-of-catholic.html

 

[Christian_Unity]

catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2009/08/misunderstanding-of-catholic.html

There are many people who do not know what the Catholic Church teaches on predestination. Many people avoid the subject because they are afraid of what they might learn about it. I have also heard Reformed apologists tell their audiences that the Catholic position denies God’s sovereignty. They tell people that the Catholic position presumes that man chooses his own eternal destiny apart from the sovereignty of God. Catholics are often falsely called Semi-Pelagians, which is also not the case. I wanted to give a basic explanation of the Catholic position on predestination. - from Catholic link above

 

[manualman]

In fairness, the OP should admit that very few nominal Calvinists (at least in my experience) will say things the way he did. Their logic LEADS in that direction, but many aren’t willing to state things as starkly as the OP.

 

[Christian_Unity]

In fairness, the OP should admit that very few nominal Calvinists (at least in my experience) will say things the way he did. Their logic LEADS in that direction, but many aren’t willing to state things as starkly as the OP.

As a Calvinist, I see quite a bit of similarities in the Catholic Thomas-Aquinas-Augustine view on predestination including a special grace needed which is given only to the elect. Also, that Catholic view also rejects the Arminian foreknowlege view that God chooses those whom He knew would choose Christ (self-election). I think the main difference between the Catholic Thomas-Aquinas-Augustine view and the Calvinist view is single predestination to double predestination. However, both views end up with the exact same results, but are explained differently. Many Calvinists struggle with double-predestination too.

 

[guanophore]

This is an interesting thread considering that Calvinism is from Reformed theology. Since the doctrines of Calvinism also includes the 5 solas of the Protestant reformation, it seems this kind of thread makes perfect sense.

In the OP, there are many in the Catholic Church who would disagree with the summary above. In predestination, Catholic are allowed to have a wide range of views including a Thomas-Aquinas-Augustine view of things which refutes quite a bit of the statement above. Calvinism is very similar to the Thomas-Aquinas-Augustine understanding of things.

catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2009/08/misunderstanding-of-catholic.html

You are right CU, I think that most Catholics are not well educated in these matters, and do not even realize how many different views are considered to be within Apostolic Teaching.

I did not respond to the thread title, but for the record I would like to add that I think John Calvin was very much “for Christ”. He suffered significant hubris (probably no more than the Pope) in thinking that he could rework the Christian faith according to his own conceptions, but in all sincerity, I think he did deeply desire a sincere and authentic faith, which he believed could be extracted from the pages of Scripture.

 

[Christian_Unity]

You are right CU, I think that most Catholics are not well educated in these matters, and do not even realize how many different views are considered to be within Apostolic Teaching.

I did not respond to the thread title, but for the record I would like to add that I think John Calvin was very much “for Christ”. He suffered significant hubris (probably no more than the Pope) in thinking that he could rework the Christian faith according to his own conceptions, but in all sincerity, I think he did deeply desire a sincere and authentic faith, which he believed could be extracted from the pages of Scripture.

Because there are so many Catholics (1 billion +), non-catholics have a hard time understanding what Catholics believe. I’m sure it’s the same for Catholics who also have a hard time understanding what Protestants believe. I found that Catholic link very refreshing.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Yes, there are many passages of the Bible that prove that Calvanism is false, but of course Calvanists have rationalizations for all of them (some quite sophisticated). Catholics interpret the Scriptures as the Apostles taught, in the light of the Teachings of Jesus through the Church. Calvanists have jettisoned this concept, so they can invent whatever meanings are suitable to boslter the doctrines invented during the Reformation.

Ah… but you did respond earlier. It appears you may be going against Thomas-Aquinas-Augustine on your posts above, and maybe not. Do you wish to explain this earlier post before I posted my Catholic link on predestination?

 

[manualman]

As a Calvinist, I see quite a bit of similarities in the Catholic Thomas-Aquinas-Augustine view on predestination including a special grace needed which is given only to the elect. Also, that Catholic view also rejects the Arminian foreknowlege view that God chooses those whom He knew would choose Christ (self-election).

I’m far from a theologian, but I do not think you are reading the catholic view entirely clearly (nor should you rely on a blog for a definitive explanation). In my limited experience, Calvinists reject the criticism that their theology reduces to God as galactic puppet-master and yet I’ve never heard a defense that did not point directly in that direction.

As a catholic layman, I understand sin to essentially be a pit so deep and steep that I have no chance whatsoever to climb out of it on my own power. Grace is like a rope that is thrown down by God that I might bind myself to it (religion literally means “to bind”) and God will lift me up and out. God tosses that rope down to EVERYONE. He doesn’t decide to toss it to some and refuse it to others. Those men who use their free will to ignore the rope choose eternal misery in the pit they dug for themselves. Those who choose to accept the gift of the rope will be saved. But neither man is a puppet. Each chose to accept or reject the free gift God offered.

The man who rejected the rope can hardly complain about his fate. Not only is he responsible for digging the pit, he is responsible for refusing the rope. He blew his first and second chance.

The man who accepted the rope can hardly brag about his achievement! He still dug himself into the stupid pit and only ever got out because he was lifted out. I would hope few men could be a daft as to brag about such a feat as clinging to a rope thrown by a Savior!

What I can’t understand about Calvinists is how they can think that God chooses NOT to throw the rope to some. How do you claim to know Jesus and still think that about him?

 

[Christian_Unity]

I’m far from a theologian, but I do not think you are reading the catholic view entirely clearly (nor should you rely on a blog for a definitive explanation). In my limited experience, Calvinists reject the criticism that their theology reduces to God as galactic puppet-master and yet I’ve never heard a defense that did not point directly in that direction.

As a catholic layman, I understand sin to essentially be a pit so deep and steep that I have no chance whatsoever to climb out of it on my own power. Grace is like a rope that is thrown down by God that I might bind myself to it (religion literally means “to bind”) and God will lift me up and out. God tosses that rope down to EVERYONE. He doesn’t decide to toss it to some and refuse it to others. Those men who use their free will to ignore the rope choose eternal misery in the pit they dug for themselves. Those who choose to accept the gift of the rope will be saved. But neither man is a puppet. Each chose to accept or reject the free gift God offered.

The man who rejected the rope can hardly complain about his fate. Not only is he responsible for digging the pit, he is responsible for refusing the rope. He blew his first and second chance.

The man who accepted the rope can hardly brag about his achievement! He still dug himself into the stupid pit and only ever got out because he was lifted out. I would hope few men could be a daft as to brag about such a feat as clinging to a rope thrown by a Savior!

What I can’t understand about Calvinists is how they can think that God chooses NOT to throw the rope to some. How do you claim to know Jesus and still think that about him?

In the world of Google, you will find many more Catholic resources which confirms that Catholic blog’s view on predestination. I hate to say it but the Catholic Faith just like Protestantism has gone from God-centered Christianity to man-centered Christianity. Good old solid teaching from Augustine, Aquinas, and Thomas will redirect that Catholic Church back to a God-centered Christianity. If you think my post is a bunch of baloney, feel free to Google Catholic Predestination.

 

[manualman]

…If you think my post is a bunch of baloney, feel free to Google Catholic Predestination.

I didn’t say baloney, I just said I think you’re wrong.

Google is great for finding directions and recipes. For my theology, I’d rather trust the Scriptures and look to the apostles for reliable interpretation (currently best found in the catechism of the catholic church). Just like it’s easy to cherry pick Scriptures and construct an unrecognizable religion (ask any former David Koresh follower), one can easily go astray misreading Early Fathers. This is a basic truth for ANY writing. Heck the Constitution of the USA is only a bit over 200 years old and look how it’s meaning has been twisted and manipulated. This doesn’t negate the need to study authoritative documents, but it does highlight the need for reliable interpretation. We catholics still have apostles for that.

There is a sense in which catholics are permitted to believe in predestination, but it’s not Calvin’s predestination. Sorry.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I didn’t say baloney, I just said I think you’re wrong.

Google is great for finding directions and recipes. For my theology, I’d rather trust the Scriptures and look to the apostles for reliable interpretation (currently best found in the catechism of the catholic church). Just like it’s easy to cherry pick Scriptures and construct an unrecognizable religion (ask any former David Koresh follower), one can easily go astray misreading Early Fathers. This is a basic truth for ANY writing. Heck the Constitution of the USA is only a bit over 200 years old and look how it’s meaning has been twisted and manipulated. This doesn’t negate the need to study authoritative documents, but it does highlight the need for reliable interpretation. We catholics still have apostles for that.

There is a sense in which catholics are permitted to believe in predestination, but it’s not Calvin’s predestination. Sorry.

It’s pretty close since Calvinism draws from Augustine who draws from Paul…

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9593

 

[SteveVH]

As a Calvinist, I see quite a bit of similarities in the Catholic Thomas-Aquinas-Augustine view on predestination including a special grace needed which is given only to the elect.

Wrong. Christ died once, for all. While all Christians receive the grace needed, only the elect have responded to that grace. The Catholic understanding has never been that God has picked some and condemned others right out of the gate. It always takes into consideration man’s free will. We have a choice regarding our salvation. We can respond to grace or reject it. The elect have responded positively. The damned have rejected it.

 

[manualman]

Let’s stop mincing words. In your view (or in Calvin’s I’d like your take on both), are there men on this earth that God created with the express intention that they commit sin and be damned for not repenting and receiving Grace? Are the elect essentially puppet caught up as passengers in irresistable Grace that compells them to repent?

My experience with Calvinists in the past (admittedly limited) has been that they feel as if any real free will on the part of man necessarily detracts from the sovereignty of God. I shake my head at such people and wonder how they could ever be parents and still hold to such a view of God the Father.

As I said before, I admit that there is an acceptable (though not dogmatic) catholic argument to be made for predestination, but it isn’t Calvin’s predestination. Just like sect leaders today often misunderstand Scripture, Calvin can easily have misunderstood Augustine before him and Paul before him. It’s an occupational hazard of usurping the divinely protected apostolic office…

 

[guanophore]

In the world of Google, you will find many more Catholic resources which confirms that Catholic blog’s view on predestination. I hate to say it but the Catholic Faith just like Protestantism has gone from God-centered Christianity to man-centered Christianity. Good old solid teaching from Augustine, Aquinas, and Thomas will redirect that Catholic Church back to a God-centered Christianity. If you think my post is a bunch of baloney, feel free to Google Catholic Predestination.

Let me see if I have this right. If one does not believe in double pre-destination just like Calvin taught it, then then one has “man-centered Christianity”?

 

[guanophore]

It’s pretty close since Calvinism draws from Augustine who draws from Paul…

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9593

Just like a most all of Calvin’s thought, it does come “pretty close”, especially when he is cherry picking from Augustine and Paul. But when he lifts those quotes out of their context, and weaves them with ideas foreign to the Apostles, the resemblence falls away.

 

[ffg]

Wrong. Christ died once, for all. While all Christians receive the grace needed, only the elect have responded to that grace. The Catholic understanding has never been that God has picked some and condemned others right out of the gate. It always takes into consideration man’s free will. We have a choice regarding our salvation. We can respond to grace or reject it. The elect have responded positively. The damned have rejected it.

I agree with this.

Those in Hell reject God to be there. Those in Hell said no with their actions, with their word, with their mind and perhaps even at the gate of heaven, still turned from it.

Rejection also happened when God made Man was on the earth (described in John 6).

God does not reject people -

It is impossible for the perfect Love to reject that which he loves perfectly. Imperfection starts with humans as it did after perfect creation. The Love was so powerful and perfect, it’s natural course was to deliver Free Will to it’s creation, as the only way to love perfectly is to do so freely.

And that’s all perfect Love wants in return, is a freely chosen love.