Is Canon 1099 an Easy Annulment?

[phil19034]

(cont…)

When I was in college: someone once said: “Love is the feeling you feel when you feel the feeling that you never felt before.” Well, that cheesy line sound like it’s right out of a romantic love song. But that’s NOT what love is.

Love is a choice, not an emotion. Love is willing the good for another person for their benefit, not some emotional feeling that we have.

All marriages go though “dry periods” where the stress of raising a family, work, etc can really tax a marriage. And if the couple is not 100% on the same page, it can really put stress on the marriage itself.

But those who buckle down and push though wind up stronger together when the stress goes away.

People don’t understand this today, and that’s why we have so many divorces in the United States.

BTW - why do Americans have far more annulments than other countries? Because our dioceses use “modern” methods to get all the answers, and Americans in general are very legalistic compared to other cultures. We like to dot our i’s and cross our t’s. Others cultures don’t take things as seriously as we do. NOTE: our seriousness, while sometimes a good thing, isn’t always a good thing.

God Bless

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

Im talking about an invitation to meet and talk with the pastor! Im sure you have heard horror stories. That should not prevent a pastor from an act of mercy to someone who may need to hear how they are rejecting the catholic faith.

Determining that they will never accept admonishment is judging them without ever giving them an opportunity.

Again, why (and how) would you expect a priest to contact someone they know is hostile to the faith?

That’s harassment…in the very least harassment by proxy.

Furthermore, if the priest had contacted the person, they refused and said: “do not contact me and do not tell XYZ that we spoke.” Do you think the priest should go running off and disclosing that?

Absolutely not.

How does the priest know they are “hostile” or not? First the priest has to discern their spirit himself!

What is this harrassment you are imagining??? A pastor calling a spouses spouse to ask if they could meet and speak is harassment?? What country do you live in???

As for your “what if” situation, lets not go into what ifs. They are a rabbit hole diversion.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

How does the priest know they are “hostile” or not? First the priest has to discern their spirit himself!

What is this harrassment you are imagining??? A pastor calling a spouses spouse to ask if they could meet and speak is harassment?? What cou try do you live in???

As for your “what if” situation, lets not go into what ifs. They are a rabbit hole diversion.

Seriously. You have party A tell a priest that their spouse, party B, is not following the faith.

First of all, this seems like the worlds biggest tattle. The priest, at that point, should have major alarm bells ringing. Then this person asks the priest to call a spouse who has separated from them. Even if it’s legal and not spiritual separation that’s a no go.

And it’s also not a “what if”. If the priest goes against what I feel is better judgment he is under NO obligation to reveal that conversation or any one that follows to the other spouse. He is most certainly not required to meet with both parties at the same time to clarify church teaching. Spouse A’s not knowing it happened under no circumstances means it didn’t happen.

 

[rcwitness]

Seriously. You have party A tell a priest that their spouse, party B, is not following the faith. First of all, this seems like the worlds biggest tattle. The priest, at that point, should have major alarm bells ringing.

Matthew 18
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

 

[CilladeRoma]

I agree. Just don’t try to teach it to 9th graders who are going to be confirmed.
The whole idea of teaching Catholic sexual morality to kids by someone other than a parents seems to be taboo around here.

 

[AlNg]

I, and others have expressed that the mandatory prep is beyond a joke.

What do you mean by a joke? If Catholic marriage and the official preparation are a joke, then how can the Catholic Church be the true Church? In a true Church, I would expect that marriage and marriage preparation are not jokes, but they are something to be taken very very seriously.

Catholic schools are often a joke

Once again, in a true Church, the education of its young members is something to be taken very seriously.

 

[Xantippe]

Here are three cases where couples may marry without believing in the permanence of marriage: immigration issues (including fraudulent green card marriage), marrying in order to provide or receive medical insurance and marriage in order to obtain full military family benefits.

 

[Xantippe]

What do you mean by a joke? If Catholic marriage and the official preparation are a joke, then how can the Catholic Church be the true Church?

The training of diocesan priests was a joke up until the Counter Reformation–that doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church is not the true Church.

It can be the true Church while failing at various functions.

(I’m less negative than my namesake Xanthippe about marriage prep. I think ours missed several important practical issues, but what it covered was very helpful.)

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

Seriously. You have party A tell a priest that their spouse, party B, is not following the faith. First of all, this seems like the worlds biggest tattle. The priest, at that point, should have major alarm bells ringing.

Matthew 18
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

This isn’t in regards to a marital relationship.

Also, what about this isn’t what I suggested. First, outside counsel must be attempted–not the priest. Then the church should be notified–NOT told what to do or how to do it. And most certainly not required to do it in front of the offended party. There is NO way for the injured party to know what the Church did…and no requirement for the Church to spell it out. Party A does not get to decide how the witness, the church or party B conduct themselves.

What do you mean by a joke? If Catholic marriage and the official preparation are a joke, then how can the Catholic Church be the true Church? In a true Church, I would expect that marriage and marriage preparation are not jokes, but they are something to be taken very very seriously.

I didn’t say the sacrament of marriage is a joke. I said the “mandatory prep” is a joke. A blind octopus with a pencil randomly making marks can “pass” the FOCCUS test. While a priest can add more, in my dioceses that’s all that’s required. That’s it.

Once again, in a true Church, the education of its young members is something to be taken very seriously.

Should it be? Absolutely. Are most Catholic schools today any more than just barley CINO? Also yes. It doesn’t mean it’s right, it just means that a large number of Catholic schools are failing to produce knowledgeable Catholics. The CARA studies back that up. There are a few strong schools here and there but they are a rarity.

 

[Xantippe]

This isn’t in regards to a marital relationship.

Yeah.

If your spouse sins against you and you have to go get one or two outside people to hear you present your case against your spouse, that sounds like we’re already headed for marital supernova. That’s not how a happy marriage operates–although that might be how you’d do an intervention for an addict.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

(I’m less negative than my namesake Xanthippe about marriage prep. I think ours missed several important practical issues, but what it covered was very helpful.)

My then fiancee and I had talked about a lot. We did great on the FOCCUS test so the priest had no resource but program that links you up with other couples. That was awful. We didn’t have any of the issues they had–and still, don’t–and we actually went to a paid Catholic counselor because we thought we were doing something wrong for being generally issue free. That anxiety that feeling like we were doing something wrong because everyone else experianced XYZ was horrible.

 

[phil19034]

I agree. Just don’t try to teach it to 9th graders who are going to be confirmed.
The whole idea of teaching Catholic sexual morality to kids by someone other than a parents seems to be taboo around here.

Well, you don’t have to start with sexual morality. You can start by teaching about what is love and what the Sacrament of Marriage is all about. Heck, that’s something you can start teaching 10 year olds.

 

[AlNg]

Look… how many people actually got a divorce in 1929? Not many.

In 1929 it was about 140,000 divorces per year in the USA.
The total number of divorced was about 1.2 million.
In 1967, it was about 520,000 divorces per year in the USA.
The total number of divorced was about 2.1 million.
So it was an increase of about 4 times. But at the same time, the population had increased, so some people look at the rates.
In 1920, in the US there were 8 couples per 1000 who got divorced that year.
In 1967, in the US there were 11.2 couples per 1000 who got divorced in that year.
But as a whole there were about 23 percent of families with a divorced spouse, whereas today it is running at about 15 percent. (But of course, fewer people are getting married and more are cohabiting).
Now look at the statistics for Catholics:
10 annulments in1929
62,000 annulments in 1990
35000 annulments in 2007
today the number is lower, but then again fewer Catholics are getting married to begin with. Many couples are cohabiting.

 

[AlNg]

I said the “mandatory prep” is a joke.

I thought that in the true Church, they would treat preparation for marriage very seriously and not as a joke. This is a problem I have also with clown Masses. The clown is supposed to be a buffoon or a jokester. I don’t see where it would be proper to treat Mass as a joke, since it is very serious business.

 

[rcwitness]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

This isn’t in regards to a marital relationship.

Yeah.

If your spouse sins against you and you have to go get one or two outside people to hear you present your case against your spouse, that sounds like we’re already headed for marital supernova. That’s not how a happy marriage operates–although that might be how you’d do an intervention for an addict.

Sinning against anyone means an unhappy relationship. Obviously things are not great! Thats the whole point of needing help.

Why go to any type of counselling according to your mentality?

 

[7_Sorrows]

Sure.

OK, Uh-huh.

I’m out.

Annulments are sought by people who want to return to the church, not a free ticket to a new marriage.
I know people who have sought annulments who are not even dating anyone. They just want to put their PAIN behind them.

Why would any practicing Catholic think that this is a bad thing?

Accusing the church of scandal is itself scandalous.
Goodbye.

i sought my annulment while not being in a relationship and not because i wanted to remarry at this time. my marriage ended 36 years ago and i have not been involved with anyone else since the divorce. once i became Catholic i knew if one day i wanted to remarry i would have to have my marriage annulled.
at this time i still have no plans to remarry nor am i in a relationship.
like you say, i just wanted to put the PAIN behind me.

 

[Xantippe]

This is a problem I have also with clown Masses.

Have any of us ever seen a clown mass?

I have seen documentation for one in the 1970s at Holy Trinity in Georgetown, but otherwise, it’s like the sasquatch, the abominable snowman, or the Loch Ness monster–everybody talks about them, but nobody can ever produce one.

Plus, nowadays, almost everybody hates clowns–we have never been safer from a clown Mass in our lifetimes than we are today.

 

[Xantippe]

Why go to any type of counselling according to your mentality?

Counseling is not at all what you’re talking about, where one spouse is getting called on the carpet by another in the presence of two witnesses.

 

[rcwitness]

Right, its convicting wrong doing in a manner that is unfortunately necessary, on account of pride.

 

[Phemie]

Amen Deacon! Even though I think abstaining from sex for a just cause, until serious behavior flaws are reconciled for and improved, is understandable. And that means no contracepted sex!

To me that sounds like, “I’m withholding sex from my spouse to punish her for not doing what I want.”