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freeRadical
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I know what Capitalism is and that Karl Marx coined it.
Government regulation and taxation can be a part of Capitalism, there is nothing inherently wrong with government regulation and taxation.
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Government regulation and taxation can be a part of Capitalism, there is nothing inherently wrong with government regulation and taxation.
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freeRadical
Guest
Do you support tariffs and quotas?
By your definition, it has never existed ever.
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Abu
Guest
It’s not merely a “stance”. The teaching on the pursuit of economic growth to enable the improvement of societies is clear and irrefutable:
**St John Paul II is clear in Centesimus Annus #42, 1991: **
‘If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI is equally clear and decisive and so precisely reveals the value of free enterprise and the market economy as the value of human dignity against human frailty, in Caritas et Veritate, 2009, #36:
“Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations. Admittedly, the market can be a negative force, not because it is so by nature, but because a certain ideology can make it so. It must be remembered that the market does not exist in the pure state. It is shaped by the cultural configurations which define it and give it direction. Economy and finance, as instruments, can be used badly when those at the helm are motivated by purely selfish ends. Instruments that are good in themselves can thereby be transformed into harmful ones. But it is man’s darkened reason that produces these consequences, not the instrument per se. Therefore it is not the instrument that must be called to account, but individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility.”
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Seraphim73
Guest
Absolutely not.
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JRRTFAN
Guest
It is quite clear to me, on the other hand, that the Church - officially - favors an economic system dubbed “distributism” by Belloc and Chesterton. It’s a pretty horrid name for Americans but that’s because we associate such words with Mr. Obama rather than the popes. Check this out: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism and note the references to Rerum Novarum, Quadragesimo Anno and Centessimus Annus by popes for the last 125 years.Peace be with you,
In my experience, Catholics and other Christians are unanimously in favor of capitalism and view all alternatives as anti-Christian. I was wondering if anyone could explain this to me? What is Christ-like about capitalism? Is it the only Church-approved economic system? Why do you think is there so much greed, corruption, poverty and social inequality in capitalist societies? I’m just looking for some explanations, because I’ve never had a fellow Catholic explain why they believe capitalism is ideal. Scripture and catechism citations in support of capitalism would be great! Thank you and blessings.
Now, when you get into the American Bishops you hit a vast wasteland of economic knowledge and Church economic preference. These men are not distributists by any stretch of the Chestertonian imagination, they are, as a group, left leaning redistibutists in the mold of Mr. Obama.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
Very good, FreeRad. I’m sorry to hear that YOU would resort to physical coercion. I thought you were a stand up guy.
The only function of the government Laws), in a Free Market society, is the task of protecting man’s rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force; the government acts as the agent of man’s right of self-defense, and may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use; thus the government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of force under objective control.
A Free Market is based on individual and property rights and their respect and protection are sacrosanct. This is the only reason to have a government or laws, for that matter.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
I explained government’s very limited role in a Free Market. Of course taxation is necessary to support even a very limited government. But there is no reason why taxation should not be voluntary rather than theft.
Yes there is something inherently wrong with government regulation of a Free Market.
A Free Market ceases to be FREE when the first regulation is imposed.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
Of course not.
The essence of a Free Market’s foreign policy is free trade. There should be no trade barriers, no protective tariffs, or special privileges. the Free Market requires the opening of the world’s trade routes to free international exchange and competition among the private citizens of all countries dealing directly with one another.
If you have read any of my previous posts on this subject you know that I very sadly admit that.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
How would you solve the free rider problem in voluntary taxation?
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Abu
Guest
False. Certainly there is nothing from the Popes supporting “distributism”.
**July 7, 2009 11:30 AM
Caritas in Veritate in Gold and Red
By George Weigel **
‘….*Centesimus Annus *not only summarized deftly the intellectual structure of Catholic social doctrine since Leo XIII; it proposed a bold trajectory for the further development of this unique body of thought, emphasizing the priority of culture in the threefold free society (free economy, democratic polity, vibrant public moral culture). By stressing human creativity as the source of the wealth of nations, Centesimus Annus also displayed a far more empirically acute reading of the economic signs of the times than was evident in the default positions at Justice and Peace. Moreover, Centesimus Annus jettisoned the idea of a “Catholic third way” that was somehow “between” or “beyond” or “above” capitalism and socialism — a favorite dream of Catholics ranging from G. K. Chesterton to John A. Ryan and Ivan Illich.’
nationalreview.com/articles/227839/i-caritas-veritate-i-gold-and-red/george-weigel
What entrepreneurs should learn from Blessed John Paul II
By Phil Lawler | December 20, 2011
Andreas Widmer is a former member of the Swiss Guard…
'In this anti-poverty work The Pope and the CEO], Widmer disdains the organizations that “patronize the poor,” and warns against those who use world poverty as an excuse to establish their own fiefdoms. To work effectively for the poor, he insists, one must understand their needs, unlock their abilities, and help them to generate new wealth by themselves.
'Helping people to realize their potential: this, Widmer argues, is the key not just to anti-poverty work, but to any successful enterprise. He uses Blessed John Paul II as an illustration of his point. The late Pontiff touched and inspired countless millions of people because he cared for them: genuinely, deeply, consistently. A great leader succeeds by serving others.
‘The lessons in leadership furnished by John Paul II are inextricably entwined with the Pope’s spiritual teachings, Widmer points out. A good leader—in the business world or in any other line of work—should exhibit the cardinal virtues: prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude. It takes humility, too, to recognize one’s own limitations and to recognize good advice. And Widmer, following John Paul II, takes the extra step to say that prayer is essential as well, to help keep everything in proper perspective.’
catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=878
Distributism has never had wide-spread support. One of the reasons may be that “the market economy consists of voluntary property exchanges. There is no mechanism of ‘distribution’ whatsoever.” (Thomas E Woods, The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 161, 201). While Distributism is unworkable as a societal norm, especially as Catholic social teaching recognises the tremendous benefits of free enterprise, condemns socialism, and proposes no “third way”, anyone is free to practise it.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
Simple.
The same way the Catholic Church deals with free riders.
The Catholic Church has been doing fine for over 2000 years without FORCING Catholics to pay tribute.
But
In Zoltan’s voluntary tax program…only tax payers have a vote. Free Riders don’t .
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freeRadical
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So does someone who pays a penny have the same voting power as someone who pays a hundred dollars?
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freeRadical
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There is established economic literature on why taxation is not voluntary, it’s called the free riding problem. Maybe you should read up on game theory.
No, there is nothing inherently wrong with government regulation.
A free market can still be free even with government regulation. It seems you don’t understand what a free market truly is. You do know that Adam Smith was in favor of some government regulation right?
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freeRadical
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I never said that I would personally use physical coercion, I merely said that a free market cannot prevent physical coercion. Even though you claim that it can.
And please, don’t talk to me like a child.
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freeRadical
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That was directed at ZC.
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Seraphim73
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So the rest of us aren’t allowed to participate in your discussion?
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freeRadical
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It wasn’t really a discussion. I specifically asked ZC if he supported tariffs and quotas in response to a post he made.So the rest of us aren’t allowed to participate in your discussion?
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ThomasJMullally
Guest
What a joy I feel jrrtfan, to be directed to this! This sounds like the “third way” I have been espousing, with its overarching goal of dissolution of large bureaucracy in whatever sphere, whether public or private, in order to unshackle the common man. Those Catholics who feel that the right to private property and unfettered trade spreading worldwide is “end of story”, are disregarding the concentration of capital and power as we have witnessed in the past generation.
Instead of espousing that the state simply should be reduced indefinitely to performing simply as the guard dogs for industrialists, and without regard to disarming the industrialists, there are some posters herein who need to continue learning through the words of their Eminences Francis, Leo, and Pius as they are quoted in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism. Hallejujah!
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freeRadical
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I think it is an unfair to assume that those who support free markets, free enterprise, and private ownership of the means of production want government to be reduced indefinitely and simply be guard dogs for the “industrialists”. There is proper role for government in when it comes to society and the economy.
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magnet
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How many people pay no taxes. Every time you turn around there is a tax lurking there.
- Social Security Tax
- Obama Care Tax
- Medicare Tax
- Workman’s Compensation Tax
- Unemployment Tax
- Real Property Tax
- Private Property Tax
- Gasoline Tax
- Sales Tax
- Excise Tax
- Airline Travel Tax
- Hotel Tax
- Resort Tax
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