Is Catholic Apologetics Too American?

[pianistclare]

Actually Peter made education a top priority. Note:Education is 2nd on Peter’s list.

2 Pet 1:5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,d] to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my bodye] will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

and notice those atributes that we are to add to our faith, must be ever increasing. IOW don’t stop increasing in those attributes, or one’s faith as he says will fail.

yup. few countries do this though.

 

[triumphguy]

I don’t think Catholic Apologetics is “too American” because if it was it would be Protestant. American is NOT a Catholic nation, despite it being the largest “denomination” because Protestants as a whole outnumber Catholics by almost 3:1.

However, with this said, I think the reasons why it seems “American” is because of some of the following:

1. Most of us only visit English speaking apologetics sites.
2. American is the richest nation in the world and has a large Catholic, minority, population (aneki.com/richest.html). American also donate more money to charity than anyone else. Therefore, our Catholic apostolates are far better funded.
3. With 78.2 million baptized members, it is the largest religious denomination in the United States, comprising 25% of the population. The United States has the fourth largest Catholic population in the world, after Brazil, Mexico and the Philippines, the largest Catholic minority population, and the largest English-speaking Catholic population. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_the_United_States and pewforum.org/2013/02/13/the-global-catholic-population/)
4. The United States is the largest English speaking nation in the world, by far. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population). And hence the largest English speaking Catholic population by far.
5. In traditional “Catholic countries,” apologetics isn’t needed as much because they have less of a “Protestant threat.” Those countries need to focus more on Evangelization and Catechizing, as they lose members to secularism & atheism vs. Protestantism. Even though they suffer from big-time Cafeteria Catholicism, Catholicism is still a fundamental part of their national culture. But in the United States, our large Catholic population is a minority (the largest Catholic minority in the World) and orthodox Catholic teaching & disciple often run against America’s Protestant culture. Hence apologetics is needed more here than in some other parts of the world to teach what the Catholic Church really believes to Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

I believe because of these reasons (which are most likely only some of the reasons), Catholic Apologetics seems to be “American.”

God Bless.

Well some groups in the American Catholic church are almost biblical literalists, and a some are Young Earth Creationists, and are anti-evolution etc, and that definitely comes from Protestantism.

Monsignor Georges LeMaitre (who proposed the Big Bang) said the Latin mass every day - there’s no reason why tradition should deny science.

 

[CatholicWhovian]

For clarification, the Church isn’t a democracy, nor is it in the American presidential style of government.

I think you’re confused with my statement, or you didn’t read it correctly. I’m referring to national governments here (the US Government, the Swedish Goverment, etc.), not the Church itself. I am referring to how voters would deal with politicians who run for government office and who might agree on non-negotiable issues.

I’ve never heard of apologetics being limited to an American perspective. That would presume someone is limiting it…agreed?

Who would that be?

It seems like it is limited to an American perspective. However based on previous posts, it seems it is unintentional, rather than intended to reflect an American perspective.

 

[Mystophilus]

It is, indeed, mostly an Anglosphere issue, and runs in parallel to American Protestants being the most vocal on the Anglophone parts of the internet.

As English continues to grow beyond the borders of native-English-speaking countries (and also as the USA’s native-Spanish-speaking population continues to expand), this may well change.

 

[phil19034]

Well some groups in the American Catholic church are almost biblical literalists, and a some are Young Earth Creationists, and are anti-evolution etc, and that definitely comes from Protestantism.

Monsignor Georges LeMaitre (who proposed the Big Bang) said the Latin mass every day - there’s no reason why tradition should deny science.

I’m not sure what you mean by this…? I have never heard any apologists on Catholic Answers push the Young Earth theory nor anti-evolution positions.

I’ve only heard respected apologists defend Divine Evolution and even mention that Monsignor LeMaitre first proposed the Big Bang. At the same time, those apologists also state that if a Catholic wants to believe in Young Earth and deny evolution, the magisterium does not teach that it is wrong. The magisterium only teaches that the theory of Divine Evolution does not contradict Catholic beliefs nor the Bible.

I only consider apologists who are 100% faithful to the magisterium. Any apologist who goes against the magisterium is not one I would listen to.

 

[dmar198]

I’m not sure what you mean by this…? I have never heard any apologists on Catholic Answers push the Young Earth theory nor anti-evolution positions.

I’ve only heard respected apologists defend Divine Evolution and even mention that Monsignor LeMaitre first proposed the Big Bang. At the same time, those apologists also state that if a Catholic wants to believe in Young Earth and deny evolution, the magisterium does not teach that it is wrong. The magisterium only teaches that the theory of Divine Evolution does not contradict Catholic beliefs nor the Bible.

I only consider apologists who are 100% faithful to the magisterium. Any apologist who goes against the magisterium is not one I would listen to.

I haven’t seen any Catholic Answers apologists defend Young Earth Creationism, but I have seen other people defend it who I think are 100% faithful Catholics. The Kolbe Center is an example: www.kolbecenter.org. I’m not aware of any evidence that they are less than 100% faithful to the Magisterium.

 

[Goya]

What about Matthew Kelly, who’s Australian?

Or Jesse Romero–Mexican?

Both are fairly prominent Catholic apologists, and not American. Do they count?

 

[Goya]

I don’t think Catholic Apologetics is “too American” because if it was it would be Protestant. American is NOT a Catholic nation, despite it being the largest “denomination” because Protestants as a whole outnumber Catholics by almost 3:1.

However, with this said, I think the reasons why it seems “American” is because of some of the following:

1. Most of us only visit English speaking apologetics sites.
2. American is the richest nation in the world and has a large Catholic, minority, population (aneki.com/richest.html). American also donate more money to charity than anyone else. Therefore, our Catholic apostolates are far better funded.
3. With 78.2 million baptized members, it is the largest religious denomination in the United States, comprising 25% of the population. The United States has the fourth largest Catholic population in the world, after Brazil, Mexico and the Philippines, the largest Catholic minority population, and the largest English-speaking Catholic population. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_the_United_States and pewforum.org/2013/02/13/the-global-catholic-population/)
4. The United States is the largest English speaking nation in the world, by far. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population). And hence the largest English speaking Catholic population by far.
5. In traditional “Catholic countries,” apologetics isn’t needed as much because they have less of a “Protestant threat.” Those countries need to focus more on Evangelization and Catechizing, as they lose members to secularism & atheism vs. Protestantism. Even though they suffer from big-time Cafeteria Catholicism, Catholicism is still a fundamental part of their national culture. But in the United States, our large Catholic population is a minority (the largest Catholic minority in the World) and orthodox Catholic teaching & disciple often run against America’s Protestant culture. Hence apologetics is needed more here than in some other parts of the world to teach what the Catholic Church really believes to Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

I believe because of these reasons (which are most likely only some of the reasons), Catholic Apologetics seems to be “American.”

God Bless.

 

[phil19034]

I haven’t seen any Catholic Answers apologists defend Young Earth Creationism, but I have seen other people defend it who I think are 100% faithful Catholics. The Kolbe Center is an example: www.kolbecenter.org. I’m not aware of any evidence that they are less than 100% faithful to the Magisterium.

Defending Young Earth is fine. But not when you defend Young Earth and denounce Divine Evolution. Or vice versa.

At this time, being what I would call “faithful to the magisterium” regarding this point would be telling Catholics that they may believe either theory since the Church has not rejected either theory and had approved both of them (Young Earth in the Church’s past and Divine Evolution in modern times).

God Bless.

 

[TimothyH]

Don’t forget that Catholic book publishing in particular and apologetics in general is a business.

Businesses are formed 1) where there is capital to start them and 2) where there are markets to sustain profit. The USA provides both 1 and 2.

Businesses don’t produce products for a non-existent market. If commercial apologetic material is “too American” it is because there is demand for it. Apologetic books will be “too Brazilian” as soon as Brazilians have discretionary income to buy $25 hardcover books that wind up sitting on on the shelf until they are sold for fifty cents at a garage sale. The same goes for China, Luxembourg or Camaroon for that matter.

-Tim-

 

[Church_Militant]

I haven’t seen any Catholic Answers apologists defend Young Earth Creationism, but I have seen other people defend it who I think are 100% faithful Catholics. The Kolbe Center is an example: www.kolbecenter.org

. I’m not aware of any evidence that they are less than 100% faithful to the Magisterium.Why would we seek to defend something that the church does not teach. YE is scientific error and the church does not teach it.

Defending Young Earth is fine. But not when you defend Young Earth and denounce Divine Evolution. Or vice versa.

At this time, being what I would call “faithful to the magisterium” regarding this point would be telling Catholics that they may believe either theory since the Church has not rejected either theory and had approved both of them (Young Earth in the Church’s past and Divine Evolution in modern times).

God Bless.

True.

If anyone has a hang up about this they should invest in
ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZBipkKJDL.AA160.jpg

Chance or Purpose

Jun 16, 2009by Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn

Which gives the actual church teaching about it all.

I don’t see what the gripe is about since I have seen a number of very good Filipino members here discussing the faith and doing it very well. If there are regional or cultural issues that need to be addressed why would Americans even be aware of them. We’re up to our ears in irreligion and immorality here. As with anything take what is useful from CA and then build upon that as needed.

 

[dmar198]

Why would we seek to defend something that the church does not teach. YE is scientific error and the church does not teach it.

Some people think YE is a scientific truth and evolution is an error. The Church allows us to hold either view, therefore people choose sides.

For myself, I try not to pick a side and instead I just try to say what the Church does: either position is permissible, and neither contradicts the Bible.

 

[James82]

There are lot’s of resources out there that are not American in nature or temperament. For the English speaking world Catholic Answers is an excellent resource. However, I have found other sources (Italian, German, etc) that the site itself will translate or Google. Really, it’s just the language barrier.

Personally I find that some of the CA apologists, while veritable tomes of knowledge, tend to be a little heavy handed and rule bound with the Protestants. To an extent, this is understandable as America is a Protestant country and the pressure of shallow theology is probably felt in all areas of your average American Catholics life.

However you will find that in other countries, their is a different temperament within the Catholic paradigm (and while still obeying Church dogma).

In France for example, traditional Anglicans are allowed to take Holy Communion in a Roman parish if they do not have access to their own.

Google is your best friend

 

[dmar198]

There are lot’s of resources out there that are not American in nature or temperament. For the English speaking world Catholic Answers is an excellent resource. However, I have found other sources (Italian, German, etc) that the site itself will translate or Google. Really, it’s just the language barrier.

Can you give some examples of significant apologetics sites from other countries? The ones I have found all seem to be like personal blog sites, though I haven’t searched Italian and German sites.

However you will find that in other countries, their is a different temperament within the Catholic paradigm (and while still obeying Church dogma).

In France for example, traditional Anglicans are allowed to take Holy Communion in a Roman parish if they do not have access to their own.

The example you gave does not seem to fit the point you were trying to establish. If Anglicans are allowed to take Holy Communion in a Catholic parish, that seems to violate Canon 844 of the Code of Canon Law: “Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone.” source If I’m understanding that correctly, the practice you are describing violates Canon Law, and therefore is done in obedience to the Church. It is my understanding that it is a dogma that the Church must be obeyed, so your example doesn’t seem to show a different paradigm “while still obeying Church dogma.” Am I missing something?

 

[thistle]

There are lot’s of resources out there that are not American in nature or temperament. For the English speaking world Catholic Answers is an excellent resource. However, I have found other sources (Italian, German, etc) that the site itself will translate or Google. Really, it’s just the language barrier.

Personally I find that some of the CA apologists, while veritable tomes of knowledge, tend to be a little heavy handed and rule bound with the Protestants. To an extent, this is understandable as America is a Protestant country and the pressure of shallow theology is probably felt in all areas of your average American Catholics life.

However you will find that in other countries, their is a different temperament within the Catholic paradigm (and while still obeying Church dogma).

In France for example, traditional Anglicans are allowed to take Holy Communion in a Roman parish if they do not have access to their own.

Google is your best friend

I do not believe that. Where do you get this information?

 

[phil19034]

There are lot’s of resources out there that are not American in nature or temperament. For the English speaking world Catholic Answers is an excellent resource. However, I have found other sources (Italian, German, etc) that the site itself will translate or Google. Really, it’s just the language barrier.

Personally I find that some of the CA apologists, while veritable tomes of knowledge, tend to be a little heavy handed and rule bound with the Protestants. To an extent, this is understandable as America is a Protestant country and the pressure of shallow theology is probably felt in all areas of your average American Catholics life.

I think this might feel this way for a few reasons, such as:

1. Catholic Answers was created partly in response to fundamental protestants leaf lettering cars in the parking lot of a Catholic Church during mass.
2. There are a number of former Protestants employed by Catholic Answers: Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Trent Horn, Michelle Arnold, etc. Also, some of the guests like Steve Ray and Dr. Scott Hahn are also former Protestants.
3. I’ve heard Steve Ray say that when he learned the truth about the Catholic faith, he became angry… Angry at Protestant leaders to spreading untruths and angry at Catholics for not fighting back hard enough to let people know what we really believe. I have to imagine that a number of convert apologists felt similar.

However you will find that in other countries, their is a different temperament within the Catholic paradigm (and while still obeying Church dogma).

In traditionally Catholic nations, like France, Spain, Italy, etc Protestantism isn’t a cultural force to deal with. Secularism, socialism, and “Cafeteria Catholicism” are, but not so much Protestantism. Catholicism is very much still part of their culture, even the Cafeteria Catholics.

The United States has the 4th largest Catholic population, but it’s a minority population, even though it’s the largest “denomination” in the US. In other English speaking nations, Catholicism is not the largest denomination and no where near being one of the largest Catholic nations. The US is very much a Protestant dominated culture. Catholic culture runs against the American culture.

In France for example, traditional Anglicans are allowed to take Holy Communion in a Roman parish if they do not have access to their own.

This cannot be not true. If there is a parish or group of parishes doing this, then it must be something like one of the following:

1. the priest doesn’t know that the people are not Catholics and/or Anglican Use Catholics
2. they are breaking canon law and potentially allowing the Anglicans to commit the grave sine of sacrilege
3. Actually an “Old Catholic” parish which some of in communion with High Anglicans. “Old Catholics” are a schismatic sect which broke away after Vatican I. Many of them have since become liberal and some have open communion with Anglicans.

God Bless.

 

[Church_Militant]

Some people think YE is a scientific truth and evolution is an error. The Church allows us to hold either view, therefore people choose sides.

For myself, I try not to pick a side and instead I just try to say what the Church does: either position is permissible, and neither contradicts the Bible.

True and this is the best path to take.

 

[James82]

I think this might feel this way for a few reasons, such as:

1. Catholic Answers was created partly in response to fundamental protestants leaf lettering cars in the parking lot of a Catholic Church during mass.
2. There are a number of former Protestants employed by Catholic Answers: Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Trent Horn, Michelle Arnold, etc. Also, some of the guests like Steve Ray and Dr. Scott Hahn are also former Protestants.
3. I’ve heard Steve Ray say that when he learned the truth about the Catholic faith, he became angry… Angry at Protestant leaders to spreading untruths and angry at Catholics for not fighting back hard enough to let people know what we really believe. I have to imagine that a number of convert apologists felt similar.

In traditionally Catholic nations, like France, Spain, Italy, etc Protestantism isn’t a cultural force to deal with. Secularism, socialism, and “Cafeteria Catholicism” are, but not so much Protestantism. Catholicism is very much still part of their culture, even the Cafeteria Catholics.

The United States has the 4th largest Catholic population, but it’s a minority population, even though it’s the largest “denomination” in the US. In other English speaking nations, Catholicism is not the largest denomination and no where near being one of the largest Catholic nations. The US is very much a Protestant dominated culture. Catholic culture runs against the American culture.

This cannot be not true. If there is a parish or group of parishes doing this, then it must be something like one of the following:

1. the priest doesn’t know that the people are not Catholics and/or Anglican Use Catholics
2. they are breaking canon law and potentially allowing the Anglicans to commit the grave sine of sacrilege
3. Actually an “Old Catholic” parish which some of in communion with High Anglicans. “Old Catholics” are a schismatic sect which broke away after Vatican I. Many of them have since become liberal and some have open communion with Anglicans.

God Bless.

anglican.cz/response-apostolic-constitution/

About the fifth paragraph down he mentions the French Catholic Bishops Conference allowing Anglicans who are otherwise unable to communicate at an Anglican Church to be permitted to allow to communicate through a Roman Church. This was decided twenty five years ago apparently.

The first time I heard of this it was actually in a discussion on Catholic Answers, and it was a Roman Catholic who mentioned it

I’m sorry that this disturbs you guys so much. If you are not happy with it, I’m sure the Church in France will hear complaints from the other side of the Atlantic via email.

HOWEVER, the link I provided is, I’m assuming, written by a person who is under the auspices of those in communion with the ill-begotten Church of England. It’s important to know this because he attempts to inject that he knows of RC clergy co-celebrating Mass with a woman Anglican priest (if you call her that). Now that IS a gross travesty of Holy Communion, and if true should be made known to the local Bishop.

 

[James82]

Can you give some examples of significant apologetics sites from other countries? The ones I have found all seem to be like personal blog sites, though I haven’t searched Italian and German sites. The example you gave does not seem to fit the point you were trying to establish. If Anglicans are allowed to take Holy Communion in a Catholic parish, that seems to violate Canon 844 of the Code of Canon Law: “Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone.” source If I’m understanding that correctly, the practice you are describing violates Canon Law, and therefore is done in obedience to the Church. It is my understanding that it is a dogma that the Church must be obeyed, so your example doesn’t seem to show a different paradigm “while still obeying Church dogma.” Am I missing something?

Yes I believe you are. That would be that Church Dogma and Canon Law ARE NOT the same thing. Dogma are those precepts which are held to be essential to salvation. Canon Law is…well…Canon Law.

 

[dmar198]

Yes I believe you are. That would be that Church Dogma and Canon Law ARE NOT the same thing. Dogma are those precepts which are held to be essential to salvation. Canon Law is…well…Canon Law.

Isn’t obedience to Canon Law “held to be essential to salvation”? That’s the impression I get from the First Vatican Council: Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world. source If the Church teaches that we must obey its Canon Law, isn’t a violation of that obedience a case of not following the Catholic dogma of obedience?