L
Living_Stats
Guest
The kind of love that Jesus refers to as “Love your enemy, your neighbor, and pray for those who persecute you.” It seems a little forced, and not quite true love.
- Status
L
Living_Stats
Guest
It was something brought up by Christopher Hitchens and the whole idea of “love your neighbor as yourself” just seemed so forced and obligatory.
C
CountrySteve
Guest
ehh, in this life, we aint forced 2 be Christian anyways its your choice whether you want to follow Christ or not, and 2 be honest I’ve learned as time goes on livinig the Christian life and loving others makes waaaay more since 2 me than hating them just my 2 cents
L
LilyM
Guest
Well, until and unless doing what is good and right becomes natural, there will always be a bit of a disconnect. And given Original Sin and concupiscence, not all of it will ever feel natural.
Think of it this way. You love Jesus, right? You want to be like Him, right? You trust Him? And He loves your enemy as much as He loves you, right? And He prays for them to the Father, right? So there must be something to it, right?
If a parent or loved one tells you to do something for your own good, and it’s on a topic on which they know far more than you, would you not trust them even if you don’t instinctively ‘get it’?
Think of it this way. You love Jesus, right? You want to be like Him, right? You trust Him? And He loves your enemy as much as He loves you, right? And He prays for them to the Father, right? So there must be something to it, right?
If a parent or loved one tells you to do something for your own good, and it’s on a topic on which they know far more than you, would you not trust them even if you don’t instinctively ‘get it’?
T
tonyrey
Guest
What is your idea of love? An overwhelming emotion we can’t control is not the type of love Jesus demonstrated. His anguish at Gethsemane suggests otherwise…
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
I think I’m hearing your point. How can we be commanded to do something that only counts if we do it of our own free will – under threats of punishment and bribes of reward?
One way I’ve learned is to quit taking Jesus’s statements to be of the “thought police” where you’re going to get in trouble if you think that way but not this.
Fact is, until Jesus came, loving each other was not known because everyone was conditioned to be very unloving, judgmental, etc. Jesus is offering us a brain upgrade that delivers its own rewards, called “non-dualistic thinking.” The things he told us to do, mentally, are intended to be suggestions (in the hypnotic sense of suggestions or the suggestion of a good friend – not in the “you better think this way or else” type suggestion) that, if we take them to heart, will eventually reprogram the way we think.
Jesus told us to “be perfect,” but we are told we can never be perfect of our own will. That doesn’t mean Jesus is trying to make an impossible rule we are to follow or we get hurt by Him and His henchmen, it means Jesus is telling us never to accept how we are as good enough. Today business jargon calls it “continuous improvement.”
I’ve thought about this for years since I first heard philosopher Alan Watts propose the question I approximated at the beginning of this thread. Thank you for giving me a chance to try to put some of my thoughts on this into writing.
Short form answer: Jesus tells us things as Friend, Thought Coach, Mindset Teacher, but not as Thought Police.
Alan
B
Bartolome_Casas
Guest
Paul’s Letter to the Romans 13:8-10
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”** 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor* and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you*, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
A person can go to Church and call themselves a Christian without practicing love of neighbor, love of enemies, love of sinners, love of disgusting people, etc., but such a person is FAR from God. Such a person, I think, may even be MORE DISTANT from God than even a non-Christian, even an atheist, who is consistently kind, just and respectful towards neighbors, strangers, opponents, and disgusting people.
Having loving, benevolent regard and orientation towards opponents and disgusting people, or people who are seemingly irrelevant to us is THE MOST DIFFICULT think about living the Christian Life, and, I think it is the think that Christians MOST OFTEN FAIL TO DO. I know I FAIL in this regard A LOT! Lord have mercy!
But, all the teachers of the Faith I have had have said this Commandment, “Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself” is the sine qua non of the Christian Life, the one thing that is indispensable.**
J
JRKH
Guest
Jesus never said being His disciple would be easy…
Keep doing it until it IS true…
Peace
James
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
It’s the only true love.
Love is not a feeling, it is not an attraction, it is doing. If you aren’t doing, the rest is worthless. You can be doing for someone you find personally repulsive. That’s true love.
T
trin40
Guest
For me I now see love as something much bigger than feeling warm and fuzzy towards someone and then it is actually easier to do. As long as your actions show you have their best interests at heart and you puposefully try to always do that then I think that is loving them.
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
I agree- we can’t control our emotional responses. But we can train them. Try this exercise:
You (naturally) ‘hate’ your enemy
Then let this hatred change to contempt
Then let this contempt change to pity
Then let this pity change to compassion
Then let this compassion be love
Another way of looking at it is that only actions count. If, in your mind and heart, you are (unwillingly) wishing someone a slow and painful death, but in your actions, you are treating them with courtesy and generosity- you are still loving them, in action.
At a certain level, our internal emotions and thoughts have no reality- it is only the actions which count. In the same way, it is nothing to ‘wish people well’ in your heart, if there is no action.
J
JRKH
Guest
Beautiful…
Here you lost me a bit…
According to the teachings of our Lord, it is NOT just the actions that count. remember that the person who “looks…with lust” has already committed adultery. So it would be wrong for someone to think it is OK to harbor hatred in their heart as long as they “act” charitably.
It appears that you recognize this since given the note that you placed as a caveat in the above. In this I would agree that, as one seeks to grow in holiness, their emotional state may not have caught up with their knowledge and their actions. In such a case, the actions, along with resisting the emotional in favor of the rational, will build up Love and reduce the hatred.
The journey continues…
Peace
James
L
levinas12
Guest
And at some point in your spiritual journey, you may even begin to like that person, nay, you may even take absolute positive delight in his or her being. Because that’s how God loves.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
Beautiful…
I agree with Qoeleth on this, but I think it has to do with flesh/spirit. I don’t love the guy on the street asking for money in any way that has to do with feelings. I might find him darned repulsive. Doesn’t matter. It matters that I love him: clothe him, feed him, pray for him.
As for looking with lust. There is a difference, I think, in the appreciative response look and starting to undress someone in your mind and indulging fantasies about them. The first is a flesh response, the second, even if only mental, is a purposeful action. And not one of love.
It’s possible when caring for an invalid, to have to repress a lot of personal feelings in order to give them the care they need. Maybe we have to repress feelings of love because we have to make them uncomfortable for their own good, sometimes. Maybe they start to be repulsive to us for whatever reason, but we wish to care for them, and so duty is love.
Love is definitely action, IMO. God in us, live in us, always compels action. I think.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
I wish I would get to such a place, someday. I don’t think I will live long enough. Sometimes, the best I can do is not do anything to hurt anyone if I can and sometimes God lets me be a bit useful. I’m very blessed.
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
L
Lady_Love
Guest
Love is willing the good of the other.
I heard a statement once that helped me so much with loving my enemies, “Only hurt people hurt people.”
Keeping that in mind we don’t have to take their actions “personally.” I believe Jesus was able to endure such injustice on account that we are so wounded. I think of an injured dog who bites if you get near its wounds, even if you only want to heal it. It’s a reaction to try to protect itself. We often do the same thing.
I believe Jesus manifested in His own body during the crucifixion the wounds that we all bear. He mirrored physically the condition of our souls, the consequences of original sin and our choices. His commitment to us propelled Him to endure everything that we endure. He is a just and compassionate judge because He knows us inside and out.
Sin is self-mutilation. That is why it is so offensive to God. This is why we must love our neighbor, even when they are our enemies, because they are the most wounded of all and in most need of love.
“Those who are most difficult to love are the ones who need it the most.”
I heard a statement once that helped me so much with loving my enemies, “Only hurt people hurt people.”
Keeping that in mind we don’t have to take their actions “personally.” I believe Jesus was able to endure such injustice on account that we are so wounded. I think of an injured dog who bites if you get near its wounds, even if you only want to heal it. It’s a reaction to try to protect itself. We often do the same thing.
I believe Jesus manifested in His own body during the crucifixion the wounds that we all bear. He mirrored physically the condition of our souls, the consequences of original sin and our choices. His commitment to us propelled Him to endure everything that we endure. He is a just and compassionate judge because He knows us inside and out.
Sin is self-mutilation. That is why it is so offensive to God. This is why we must love our neighbor, even when they are our enemies, because they are the most wounded of all and in most need of love.
“Those who are most difficult to love are the ones who need it the most.”
L
Living_Stats
Guest
Lady Love, I think that’s what Quoeleth meant by “turning contempt into pity and pity into compassion, etc.” That’s a good way of thinking about it.
- Status