Is Catholicism A Democracy?

[PPIX]

At the risk of sounding repetetive, it seems so strange to me that so many catholics seem so angry with their church all the time. When people get angry at other churches they just leave and go somewhere else.

But catholics won’t leave because they supposedly believe that it is the one true church, which if that’s the case why be so angry?

What is the point of staying at a church that makes you so angry?

thanks, Richie

Who is angry?

Previous popes made bad examples of themselves. St. Catherine of Siena told the Holy Father to return to Rome when the popes had set up residence in palaces near the French Riviera, actually in Avignon (very close the Riviera)… abandoning their archdiocese of Rome.

When the pope kisses the Koran, it does not make me angry, I am confused why he would do such a thing and concerned about the example he is setting.

If a pope had several mistresses, would it be ok to point out as a poor example for the bishops and priests?

Now I should have edited out the possibly uncharitable parts of MacK’s post, instead of just copying and pasting it with a link.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

http://bestsmileys.com/mouthzippedshut/4.gif

Aw, c’mon Dustinsdad, surely you must have something you’re just dying to say!

 

[Richie_Nelson]

Who is angry?

Um, like dozens of people here who are always complaing about how this priest didn’t do this, or that parish does that, or that person didn’t do something else…Shouldn’t church be a happy place? You can be quiet and reverent, and still be joyful.

It seems like a lot of catholics are really grumpy about everything.

thanks, Richie

 

[JReducation]

This was at an ecumenical meeting in the Argentinian capital (June 19, 2006), where Father Raniero Cantalamessa and a Cardinal Bergoglio, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, where present. In the earlier picture, Father Raniero Cantalamessa was indeed being “prayed over” by a group of protestant ministers - in Charismatic terms, that means these leaders of objectively heretical groups were calling the Holy Spirit down on an ordained priest. The Cardinal knelt down to receive his blessing (link and link) - I’ll refrain from posting the picture for the outrage it would cause. And I say this not to cause scandal or to show disrespect, but only because if we don’t talk about these things, alot of folks wouldn’t believe they were actually going on…and because I think it represents exactly what Pope Pius XI warned against - with the warned about results being manifest more and more the longer such practices persist.

I’m sorry, I’m going to disagree with you. This goes way, way beyond personally praying with a non-Catholic…it is a public pan-Christian “service” that attempts to place the Catholic faith - the One True Religion - on an equal footing and basis with false religions…descending even to the point where those who have been called and blessed and incorporated into the very Priesthood of Jesus Christ Himself bow down and receive “blessings” from leaders of these false religions.

This is pretty serious stuff here. Kind of like reality inverted.

An encyclical is written for the entire Church is it not? An encyclical applies to everyone - diocesan priests, religious, the hierarchy, and the layfolk. So you can’t fairly say that Mortalium Animos wasn’t written also for the Franciscans. And you can’t pit Pope Pius XI against St. Francis, given his glowing words (see here) - so something doesn’t fit.

I think you are trying to make this into a sort of Franciscan thing, but I don’t think it’s fair. It’s basicaly a charismatic / ecumenical thing that a Franciscan happens to be heavily involved in.

How can you say these groups are truly Franciscan, when as Pope Pius XI said so truly regarding St. Francis in the abovementioned encyclical:What evil they do and how far from a true appreciation of the Man of Assisi are they who, in order to bolster up their fantastic and erroneous ideas about him, imagine such an incredible thing as that Francis was an opponent of the discipline of the Church, that he did not accept the dogmas of the Faith, that he was the precursor and prophet of that false liberty which began to manifest itself at the beginning of modern times and which has caused so many disturbances both in the Church and in civil society!

…

As a man who was truly Catholic and apostolic, he insisted above all things in his sermons that the faith of the Holy Roman Church should always be preserved and inviolably, and that the priests who by their ministry bring into being the sublime Sacrament of the Lord, should therefore be held in the highest reverence. He also taught that the doctors of the law of God and all the orders of clergy should be shown the utmost respect at all times."

(Pope Pius XI, Rite Expiatis, cf 23)
Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Thanks for your post. Your observtions are noted. NOW it’s time to move on.

JR

 

[PPIX]

It seems like a lot of catholics are really grumpy about everything.

thanks, Richie

If true, it is something that should be amended. All the problems should not result in a loss of peace. Especially in the most difficult times.

 

[JReducation]

When we take a look at this “scandalous” picture of a Franciscan in the midst of “heretics”, what you see as shocking, I also see as shocking, but in a completely exciting way! 20 - 30 years ago, you would not have seen or heard of a group of Evangelicals even believing that a Catholic was a Christian, let alone one who was welcomed to come and minister to them. If you don’t see the breakthrough here, then you have my pity more than my animosity.

I agree that this is a breakthrough for our separated brothes and sisters. The fact that they would consider us worthy of their prayers rather than their contempt, as had been the case for almost 500 years is a sing that the Holy Spirit is moving them in the right direction.

I don’t think anyone who loves the NO is resentful of the continuation of the TLM, they shouldn’t be, but the fact that those who prefer the TLM have an aweful tendancy to scandalize the Church by insisting that the NO is an inferior form of worship and not worthy, even though the Church herself says it is, is a point of contention between us, as it should be.

The underlining is mine. I strongly disagree with this part. Many people who love the EF of the mass also love the Church and their Catholic brothers and sisters who love the NO. They are very holy and chritable people. It is their innate holiness and charity that drives them to the EF, just as there are many holy and charitable people who are driven to the NO. Each person moves in the direction that the Holy Spirit moves them. The Church gives us two forms of the same Latin rite, to allow the Holy Spirit more space to work, not that the Holy Spirit can’t find the space, but the Church cooperates as the Bride of Christ that she is.

That being said, there are people who are offensive in their presenation or defence of what they believe or prefer. You will find them among those who prefer the EF and among those who prefer the NO. Arrogance and ignorance are not the private monapology of any group. In addition, we cannot generalize. Generalities rarely work.

I STRONGLY suggest that we drop the issue and let the Holy Spirit work. If someone has a question as to the history or specific symbols of either form, of course they deserve a response. As to a discussion of the merits of either form, such a discussion only leads to debates and feelings being hurt.

JR

 

[JReducation]

Deo Gratias, St Francis refused the hospitality of the Sultan

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. However, I m going to correct one historical deta. Francis’ chroniclers do not say that he refused the hospitlity of the Sultan. St. Bonaventure and Thomas of Celano, the first authors of his biography state that he failed to convert the Sultan, but he did manage to get the Sultan to agree to treat Christian prisoners more kindly and to allow the Franciscan Order to move into Jerusalem and take over many of the Holy Christian Sites, which they run to this day along with our Orthodox bretheren.

In addition, he won the admirtion of the Sultan who said, “If all Christians were like this little man, I would convert immediately.”

Check out Celano and Bonaventure.

JR

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. However, I m going to correct one historical deta. Francis’ chroniclers do not say that he refused the hospitlity of the Sultan. St. Bonaventure and Thomas of Celano, the first authors of his biography state that he failed to convert the Sultan, but he did manage to get the Sultan to agree to treat Christian prisoners more kindly and to allow the Franciscan Order to move into Jerusalem and take over many of the Holy Christian Sites, which they run to this day along with our Orthodox bretheren.

In addition, he won the admirtion of the Sultan who said, “If all Christians were like this little man, I would convert immediately.”

Check out Celano and Bonaventure.

JR

I also have heard this story about how St. Francis wanted to convert the Sultan. And I think that’s one of the main points of the story; that St. Francis was attempting to convert him to the Catholic faith.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I don’t think anyone who loves the NO is resentful of the continuation of the TLM, they shouldn’t be, but the fact that those who prefer the TLM have an awful tendency to scandalize the Church by insisting that the NO is an inferior form of worship and not worthy, even though the Church herself says it is, is a point of contention between us, as it should be.

The underlining is mine. I strongly disagree with this part. Many people who love the EF of the mass also love the Church and their Catholic brothers and sisters who love the NO. They are very holy and chritable people. It is their innate holiness and charity that drives them to the EF, just as there are many holy and charitable people who are driven to the NO. Each person moves in the direction that the Holy Spirit moves them. The Church gives us two forms of the same Latin rite, to allow the Holy Spirit more space to work, not that the Holy Spirit can’t find the space, but the Church cooperates as the Bride of Christ that she is.

That being said, there are people who are offensive in their presentation or defense of what they believe or prefer. You will find them among those who prefer the EF and among those who prefer the NO. Arrogance and ignorance are not the private monopoly of any group. In addition, we cannot generalize. Generalities rarely work.

JR

Point taken. I did not word my post appropriately, you are right. I made it way too generalized and that is a disservice to the many Catholics who love the TLM but do not cause distress over the NO and the Church’s implementations of both forms of Liturgical worship.

My apologies.

 

[JReducation]

I believe that Richie’s question deserves a thoughtful response. As a convert to Catholicism, I went through various stages to get to where I am today. In the end, I love the Catholic Church with all of her faults and her blessings. I went through a period of discernment and came to the conclusion that Catholicism was logical. It was its logic that made me feel at home, if you get what I mean. That’s the way I function. Not everyone functions the same way.

Generalizations can be dangerous. Not all Catholics are angry at the Church. I would say that most are not. If you go to a typical parish, you will find that most people are very happy with their Church. Remember, the local parish is the Church for most Catholics. Few lay Catholics are directly involved at the diocesan or Vatican levels of the Church. The best place to judge how people feel about the Church is through the local parish.

I can speak for my parish. It’s small compared to many urban parishes. We have about 5000 members, as we are in a predominantly Jewish part of Florida. On the Tuesday of Holy Week we had a penance service and there were more than 300 people from ages 9 – 90 on line for confession. I say that’s a pretty good number. I don’t know how many went to confession on the Saturday before or by appointment. On Holy Thursday we had two masses simultaneously. One was in the main church and the other was in the friary chapel, because there was no standing room in the main Church. There were about 1000 people in the main church and I believe it sits about 800 and several hundred in the friary chapel which is smaller. The adoration of the Blessed Sacrament took place under a huge tent in the friary garden, because there was no physical space to accommodate the crowd. The traffic of people continued until midnight. Between the Easter Vigil and Easter Sunday we had 10 masses. Only three of our friars are priests. We had to rent priests from local hospitals and a college to help with the masses as the friars can only celebrate two masses each. I attended the Easter Vigil and it was filled to capacity, despite torrential rain. People still came out for it. I understand from a colleague that despite Sunday’s torrential rains, the other nine masses were also full.

This is a testimony of one of many parishes like this across the world. The problem is that those who are angry always make more noise than those whose heart is at peace. Remember, a peaceful heart is also a soul where there is interior silence. This is not the person who is going around announcing their displeasure in an angry tone. These were the souls of the mystics and the reformers. They worked peacefully, without murmuring. Look at Mother Teresa. She contributed to the transformation of the Church with mercy, love, penance, and charity toward all people. The only time that she spoke forcefully was not against her Church, but against the injustices against the poor. St. Terese, The Little Flower, is another great example of a reformer who transformed the Church through silence and prayer. A true mystic is a man or woman who is at peace within and who is not angry, but energetic. You will find many of these folks in your average parish, just look and see.

JR

 

[JReducation]

I also have heard this story about how St. Francis wanted to convert the Sultan. And I think that’s one of the main points of the story; that St. Francis was attempting to convert him to the Catholic faith.

Actually, Celano and Bonaventure attempt to get their reader to focus on several qualities which they felt should be lived by all.

1. Francis wanted to bring the faith to those who were not Christian. They want to point out to his missionary spirit, which should be the spirit of every Christian.
2. Francis approached the Sultan and his people with great humility and apologized for the sins committed against them by Christians. They wanted to point out Francis’ ability to recognize not only the sins of others, but our own as a Church as well. They wanted us to imitate his honesty. He didn’t point the finger, but admitted that we are all sinners.
3. Francis gained the respect of the Sultan to the point that the Sultan said he would convert to Christinity if all of us were like Francis. Bonaventure and Celano want to hold Francis up as the perfect model of Christianity. As he was called at his canonization, The Mirror of Perfection. We are all called to be mirrors of perfection.
4. Francis did not convert the Sultan, but did soften his heart toward the Christian prisoners of war. Bonaventure points out how even this small step toward greater justice, on the part of the Sultan, was a significant achievement. For Francis, even the little achievements were great in his heart. We are called to learn to walk using small steps and leave the rest up to God.
5. Francis secured the Holy Christian sites in Jerusalem under the direction of the Franciscans the Orthodox Church. He was willing to share this responsibility. Bonaventure and Celano want to point us to Francis’ spirit of universal brotherhood, with Christians, Muslims, Orthodox, and even the Sun and the Moon. We are called to recognize that we are all children of the same God and are therefore brothers and sisters. We must love and live together as such. To this day the Franciscan Commiseriate of the Holy Land runs the Holy Sites in union with the Orthodox Church. They even cross over to each other’s sites to celebrate the sacraments in their own faith.

Francis succeeded in many ways. Not the way that he hoped for, but as Bonaventure puts it according to God’s will. We have to try for the big things and settle for the small achievements as a sign of God’s graces.

JR

 

[Richie_Nelson]

I believe that Richie’s question deserves a thoughtful response. JR

ok, thanks, Richie

 

[DustinsDad]

St. Francis never failed to preach the need for conversion of the non-Catholics to the one true Church of Christ for salvation.

============================

ST. FRANCIS VISITS THE SULTAN OF BABYLON
When they proceeded farther, the Saracen sentries fell upon them like wolves swiftly overtaking sheep. By divine providence they were led to the Sultan, just as Francis had wished.** When the Sultan inquired by whom, why and how they had been sent, Francis replied with an intrepid heart that the Most High God had sent him to point out to the Sultan and his people the way of salvation and to announce the Gospel of truth**.

Inspired from heaven, Francis continued: “If you wish to be converted to Christ along with your people, I will most gladly stay with you for love of him. But if you hesitate. . .then command that an enormous fire be lit and I will walk into the fire along with your priests so that you will recognize which faith deserves to be held as holier and more certain.”

Selections from Saint Bonaventure, The Major Legend of Saint Francis, Chapter 9.
franciscanfriarstor.com/stfrancis/stf_st_francis_and_the_muslims.htm

============================

Around 1219, after a General Chapter of the Order, Saint Francis decided to undertake a mission to the Muhammadans in Egypt, where also there was a Crusade being fought.

During this time, Francis stayed with the Christian army, and then crossed over to the Moslem lines. Once outside the Christian lines, he was seized by Moslem soldiers. Francis told the soldiers that he wanted to preach Christ to the Sultan, who allowed him into the camp.

When brought to the Sultan, Francis said, “I am sent by the Most High God, to show you and your people the way of salvation by announcing to you the truths of the Gospel.” And when Saint Francis preached, the Sultan felt himself very much drawn to Francis and to the power of his words. So much so, that he invited Francis to stay with him.

John Vennari, from **‘The “Spirit of Assisi” vs. Saint Francis of Assisi’

 

[DustinsDad]

Regarding Mark 9:38-41, if you think these folks were preaching heresy, you are reading into the text something that is not there.

Take it if you will, in balance with 2 John 10: If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.

DR footnote on this passage: "This admonition is in general, to forewarn the faithful of the dangers which may arise from a familiarity with those who have prevaricated and gone from the true faith, and with such as teach false doctrine. But this is not forbidding a charity for all men, by which we ought to wish and pray for the eternal salvation of every one, even of our enemies."

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

And now a pop quiz…Who wrote the following words? JR, I’d appreciate it if you refrained from answering until a few other’s have a chance.

Whence all who saw the Lord Jesus according to the Humanity and both did not see and believe according to the spirit and the Divinity, that He Himself is the true Son of God, have been damned; so even now all who see the Sacrament, which is sanctified by the words of the Lord upon the altar by the hand of the priest in the form of bread and wine, and do not see and believe according to the spirit and the Divinity, that this is truly the Most Holy Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, have been damned, since the Most High Himself testifies, who said: “This is My Body and” My “Blood of the New Testament [which is poured forth on behalf of the many]” (Mt 14:22,24); and “He who eats” My Flesh “and drinks” My Blood, “has life eternal” (cf. Jn 6:55). Whence of the Spirit of the Lord, who dwells in His faithful, is he who receives the Most Holy Body and Blood of the Lord. · All others, who do not share this same Spirit and presume to receive Him, eat and drink “judgement upon themselves” (cf. 1 Cor. 11:29).

 

[Like]

DustinsDad, IMO you posted some good sites here, with the exception of the last one, “Tradition in Action” They give “Traditionalist” a bad name.

Tradition in Action claims to be “committed to defend the perennial Magisterium of Holy Mother Church and Catholic traditions. TIA also works for a restoration of Christian civilization, adapted to contemporary historical circumstances.”

However, TIA’s members attempt to do this by ridiculing the Roman clergy, the Pope, and many prominent Catholic leaders and religious. Their manner of presenting pictures and commentary completely aside from any context is both a misrepresentation of facts and disgraceful to the Church and Her hierarchy. While ostensibly seeking to reinstate traditions in the Church, this site ridicules the living Tradition of the Church’s Magisterium and therefore, it cannot validly claim a right to defense of Holy Mother Church. We recommend avoiding this site altogether.
catholicculture.org/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=3026&repos=2&subrepos=&searchid=210891

 

[eelpis]

Experience is sometimes the best teacher. While I’m not anticipating another Protestant Reformation, I am not expecting this to be a simple thing. I have spent many years working with religious and training religious. I can tell you from personal experience that they are not all going to be comfortable with someone imposing the EF on them. They are not used to having bishops impose on them. They usually work pretty autonomously and they are very curious to know how something like the EF fits into the spirituality and charism of their order, before they adopt it.
JReducation;3428932:

The Mass is the Mass in whatever form.
I’d be very suspicious of an order who thinks that Mass is not compatible with their spirituality. The Mass is the center and summit of Christian life.

 

[DustinsDad]

DustinsDad, IMO you posted some good sites here, with the exception of the last one, “Tradition in Action” They give “Traditionalist” a bad name.

I actually agree with you. Just critique what I posted, not that particular group. I like Venarri, his stuff is usually well researched and cited. The site just happened to have the article.

 

[catharina]

Indeed the Mass is the Mass in whatever form.
Such Orders celebrate the Mass when they celebrate the NO Mass.

Any who imply that the MP Mass is the ONLY Mass are teaching error.

 

[DustinsDad]

Good things…very good things…



ROME, Mar 24, 2008 / 09:30 am (CNA).- A day after he was received into the Catholic Church by Pope Benedict XVI during the Easter vigil, Magdi Allam, a widely known Italian Muslim, wrote a letter to his own paper on Easter Sunday in which he issued a twofold call: first to he encouraged other Muslims who have converted to Catholicism to come out publicly and secondly he called on the Church to be “less prudent” about converting Muslims…

…But Allam says that the most decisive factor was his meeting with the Pope “whom I have admired and defended as a Muslim for his brilliance in presenting the indissoluble link between faith and reason as the foundation of true religion.”

He praised the Pontiff for agreeing “to personally give me the Sacraments,” thus launching “an explicit and revolutionary message to a Church up to now too prudent regarding the conversion of Muslims.”

(Full article: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12129 )