E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
IF there has not been a stable group at the parish looking for the TLM then there is no reason to swap it into any of the mass ‘slots’.
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C
catharina
Guest
Adding to Post # 200 so that I’m not misunderstood … “I’m beginning to think that often we find the reverence at Mass that we have brought with us to the Mass.”
**
I mean that it seems obvious that if we are willing to allow the grace of God
to work in us when we are called to attend Mass then we will always find overwhelming blessings. The grace is built into the experience of attending Mass.**
**
I mean that it seems obvious that if we are willing to allow the grace of God
to work in us when we are called to attend Mass then we will always find overwhelming blessings. The grace is built into the experience of attending Mass.**
D
DustinsDad
Guest
If ifs and ands were pots and pans, there’d be no work for the tinkermen.
J
JReducation
Guest
Huh?
J
JReducation
Guest
Before I proceed to answer some questions and posts. I’d like to invite everyone on the thread to join me today, in spirit, to pray for Catharina’s brother, her and their family and friends.
Maybe we can all perform an extra act of charity today and offer it for the repose of his soul and the consolation of his family and friends. There is no greater prayer than charity.
Thanks,
JR
Maybe we can all perform an extra act of charity today and offer it for the repose of his soul and the consolation of his family and friends. There is no greater prayer than charity.
Thanks,
JR
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
Praying for the repose of Catharina’s brother’s soul, and for comfort for the entire family.
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
I agree Catharina. It all comes down to the heart and mind of the individual. And that is what’s going to be judged by the only One who is worthy to do so, not which Mass he/she preferred.
J
JReducation
Guest
No. Than you!
All diocesan priests are secular priests, but so are those who belong to apostolic institutes such as Maryknoll and Vincentians. There are also societies made up of secular preists, such as Opus Dei. These priests live in community, but they do not take vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. They do not follow a prescribed rule of life as religioius do. Their life in community is for the purpose of their ministry.
Religious, men and women, take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. They followed a prescribed rule of life for their sanctification first and the sanctification of the Church. Community rules and life are primary and ministry is secondary. Ministry is considered to be a by-product of their life of prayer and their life with each other. Therefore, they are usually very intimately connected. They eat together, pray together, recreate together, sometimes wear the same garb, they are governed by their rule and their chapter which makes all of their laws and rules.
There are two kinds of communities of men: clerical and fraternal. A clerical community is a religious congregation where the members are priests.
A fraternal community is a religious order, where all the members are Brothers and some of the brothers are also priests, but they are first and foremost Brothers. Their identity is defined as a Brother, even if they are ordained.
A good example is Cardinal O’Malley, OFM Cap of Boston. If you visit his blog you will notice that he does not wear the Cardinal’s garb except for liturgy. He is a Capuchin Brother. He wears the Brother’s habit. He dresses up as a Cardinal only for official functions. Just as other Brothers who are priests wear vestments only for mass. You can’t tell which Brothers are priests and which are not, because they usually wear a habit, secular clothes or a Roman collar. When they’re at home, everyone cleans, cooks, does laundry, takes turns shopping, everyone recreates together, eats together, prays together and follow the exact same schedule and traditions.
Diocesan priests are not bound by any of this. A rectory is not a community. Though, often the priests who share the rectory get along well enough that they do some things together, but they have no obligation to do so. They are not a community of any kind, congregation, order or society. Even if the law on celibacy changed, it would not apply to them, because they take a vow of consecrated chastity. Those who are priests do not promise obedience to the bishop. This part of the rite of ordination is removed for them.
In addition, secular priests may own property and are paid a salary for their work. Religious are not paid and they cannot own property or even have medical insurance. Secular priests who belong to societies share their money.
A secular priest who belongs to a diocese is often called a diocesan priest. He promises obedience to the bishop and he works in the ministries of his diocese. He never leaves his diocese, unless the bishop sends him for some special reason. He is celibate because of Church law, but does not make a vow of chastity.
Society priests, even though they are secular, go where ever their society works. They are not bound to a bishop or diocese. But they are still secular, becaue of what I said above, no vows and no rule of life.
Religious are never bound to a diocese. Their obedience is first to their founder, second to their rule and constitutions, third to their community, fourth to their superior and fifth to the bishop, if they work for a bishop. Bishops never interfere in their internal affairs. They deal only with the ministry, if it’s a diocesan ministry that the religious have undertaken. Religious have ministries of their own, which are not official ministries of the diocese. They get permission from the bishop to open a soup kitche, for example, after that they are on their own. In the case of a parish, all parishes belong to the diocese. Religious who work in a parish must follow the bishop’s policies on anything regarding the parish. If they don’t like these policies, they are free to leave the parish with the consent of their superior. The bishop cannot force them to stay, as he can with diocesan priests.
This is why I said above that we have to consider the impact that TLM has on bishops and religious superiors.
Let’s say that a religious community wants to celebrate TLM in the parish they run and the bishop does not. It’s his parish. They can’t do it. The other way around may happen. The Bishop wants it and the religious are not comfortable with it. They either have to bite the bullet or leave the parish. If it’s one religious who has a problem, superiors will usually transfer that religious to a house in another diocese. If it’s a problem for several religious, the religious superior may replace all of them with other religious or he may return the parish to the bishop and pull his order out.
I saw this happen in a diocese. A bishop and a certain religious order did not agree on certain policies. They couldn’t settle their disagreement. The religious superior pulled his order out of the diocese. They handed four parishes back to the bishop. This was very hard on the bishop, because he did not have enough diocesan priests to cover. He had to close three parishes. He appeald to Rome and Rome responded that they had no authority over the Order, because the order was acting legally.
I know this is more than what you asked for.
JR
C
catharina
Guest
Thank you for the big slice of information! (Now I must study it.)No. Than you!
All diocesan priests are secular priests, but so are those who belong to apostolic institutes such as Maryknoll and Vincentians. There are also societies made up of secular preists, such as Opus Dei. These priests live in community, but they do not take vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. They do not follow a prescribed rule of life as religioius do. Their life in community is for the purpose of their ministry.
Religious, men and women, take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. They followed a prescribed rule of life for their sanctification first and the sanctification of the Church. Community rules and life are primary and ministry is secondary. Ministry is considered to be a by-product of their life of prayer and their life with each other. Therefore, they are usually very intimately connected. They eat together, pray together, recreate together, sometimes wear the same garb, they are governed by their rule and their chapter which makes all of their laws and rules.
There are two kinds of communities of men: clerical and fraternal. A clerical community is a religious congregation where the members are priests.
A fraternal community is a religious order, where all the members are Brothers and some of the brothers are also priests, but they are first and foremost Brothers. Their identity is defined as a Brother, even if they are ordained.
A good example is Cardinal O’Malley, OFM Cap of Boston. If you visit his blog you will notice that he does not wear the Cardinal’s garb except for liturgy. He is a Capuchin Brother. He wears the Brother’s habit. He dresses up as a Cardinal only for official functions. Just as other Brothers who are priests wear vestments only for mass. You can’t tell which Brothers are priests and which are not, because they usually wear a habit, secular clothes or a Roman collar. When they’re at home, everyone cleans, cooks, does laundry, takes turns shopping, everyone recreates together, eats together, prays together and follow the exact same schedule and traditions.
Diocesan priests are not bound by any of this. A rectory is not a community. Though, often the priests who share the rectory get along well enough that they do some things together, but they have no obligation to do so. They are not a community of any kind, congregation, order or society. Even if the law on celibacy changed, it would not apply to them, because they take a vow of consecrated chastity. Those who are priests do not promise obedience to the bishop. This part of the rite of ordination is removed for them.
In addition, secular priests may own property and are paid a salary for their work. Religious are not paid and they cannot own property or even have medical insurance. Secular priests who belong to societies share their money.
A secular priest who belongs to a diocese is often called a diocesan priest. He promises obedience to the bishop and he works in the ministries of his diocese. He never leaves his diocese, unless the bishop sends him for some special reason. He is celibate because of Church law, but does not make a vow of chastity.
Society priests, even though they are secular, go where ever their society works. They are not bound to a bishop or diocese. But they are still secular, becaue of what I said above, no vows and no rule of life.
Religious are never bound to a diocese. Their obedience is first to their founder, second to their rule and constitutions, third to their community, fourth to their superior and fifth to the bishop, if they work for a bishop. Bishops never interfere in their internal affairs. They deal only with the ministry, if it’s a diocesan ministry that the religious have undertaken. Religious have ministries of their own, which are not official ministries of the diocese. They get permission from the bishop to open a soup kitche, for example, after that they are on their own. In the case of a parish, all parishes belong to the diocese. Religious who work in a parish must follow the bishop’s policies on anything regarding the parish. If they don’t like these policies, they are free to leave the parish with the consent of their superior. The bishop cannot force them to stay, as he can with diocesan priests.
This is why I said above that we have to consider the impact that TLM has on bishops and religious superiors.
Let’s say that a religious community wants to celebrate TLM in the parish they run and the bishop does not. It’s his parish. They can’t do it. The other way around may happen. The Bishop wants it and the religious are not comfortable with it. They either have to bite the bullet or leave the parish. If it’s one religious who has a problem, superiors will usually transfer that religious to a house in another diocese. If it’s a problem for several religious, the religious superior may replace all of them with other religious or he may return the parish to the bishop and pull his order out.
I saw this happen in a diocese. A bishop and a certain religious order did not agree on certain policies. They couldn’t settle their disagreement. The religious superior pulled his order out of the diocese. They handed four parishes back to the bishop. This was very hard on the bishop, because he did not have enough diocesan priests to cover. He had to close three parishes. He appeald to Rome and Rome responded that they had no authority over the Order, because the order was acting legally.
I know this is more than what you asked for.
JR
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
Actually, it’s a lot to take in, I think I’m going to print it so I can refer to it when I get confused somewhere down the road, like tomorrow.I know this is more than what you asked for.
JR
C
catharina
Guest
JR and Jeanette and any others inclined to spare a prayer for my brother’s repose and for all of our family: thank you. I’m one of 36 first-cousins, aged 42 yrs to 75 yrs, and being part of such a large, related group is unusual these days but it means so much in times of grief and loss.
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
:console: You are very blessed to have that support.
J
JReducation
Guest
CORRECTION: I put this in the wrong paragraph. This applies to religious, not to secular/diocesan priests.
JR
Sorry
JR
C
catharina
Guest
Sorry this is so disjointed.
That reflects my emotions at the moment but I do want to add this thought. All of us, the 36 first-cousins were raised to “do the will of God.” One important aspect of that is to remain faithful to the Church. As a result, none of us has ever imagined we should be free to demand this or that from the Church, including our own personal preferences for the Mass; rather we know we are to bring reverence to and find reverence in any Mass.
J
JReducation
Guest
This is an interesting perspective, because I was raised Jewish and this is the same thing that Jews teach their children. We bring the reverence to worship and draw its fruits.
By the way, I’ve got you beat. My mother came from a family of 18 brothers and sisters. We’re 65 first cousins and I lost count of how many children and grandchildren each has. I don’t even know some of them.
I guess that my Jewish grandparens took very seriously the idea of preserving the Jewish race, but they seemed to want to do it themselves.
JR
J
JReducation
Guest
This is an interesting perspective, because I was raised Jewish and this is the same thing that Jews teach their children. We bring the reverence to worship and draw its fruits.
By the way, I’ve got you beat. My mother came from a family of 18 brothers and sisters. We’re 65 first cousins and I lost count of how many children and grandchildren each has. I don’t even know some of them.
I guess that my Jewish grandparens took very seriously the idea of preserving the Jewish race.
JR
C
catharina
Guest
Thanks for sharing the info re your Jewish relatives. It’s clear that the true traditions of Judaism flowered in Christianity; that’s as it was to be. The notion of keeping the faith, guarding the faith, sharing the faith, being willing to grow in faithfulness is all-encompassing even if/when we don’t necessarily understand why we’re asked to submit our will to God in His ChurchThis is an interesting perspective, because I was raised Jewish and this is the same thing that Jews teach their children. We bring the reverence to worship and draw its fruits.
By the way, I’ve got you beat. My mother came from a family of 18 brothers and sisters. We’re 65 first cousins and I lost count of how many children and grandchildren each has. I don’t even know some of them.
I guess that my Jewish grandparens took very seriously the idea of preserving the Jewish race, but they seemed to want to do it themselves.
JR
D
DustinsDad
Guest
Well if no one is looking for the TLM there no one is going to be asking to swap anything anyway. I’m not sure what the point is here.
I hope we’re not looking for ways “around” the Holy Father’s motu proprio rather than actually listening to he has to say and being open to it.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
D
DustinsDad
Guest
Amen to that.
D
DustinsDad
Guest
And let’s not forget the FSSP. I’m not sure of the ICKSP - and shame on me for not knowing since the Oratory I attend is ran by them.
I’m not sure the motu proprio doesn’t impact this - specificaly article 5. If a religous order is in charge of a parish (at the bishop’s permission and request of course), the pastor there could determine whether or not to offer a mass in the EF. Of course if the Bishop was real upset he could “disinvite” the religous order and replace them, I’m just not sure he could use the EF as the reason without getting into some hot water.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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