Is Catholicism A Democracy?

[Jeanette_L]

Nothing negative - that’s for sure.

But it does imply that as the Bride of Christ moved through time, Her understanding of the sacred mysteries deepened, and this deeper understanding was reflected in Her Sacred Liturgies.

I think Our Lord left His bride with the ability to grow ever deeper in Her knowledge of Him and in the Revelation He left to us. We need to treasure and honor these wonderful things Holy Mother Church has given us.

Certainly there is a danger of* false antiquity* (I forget the exact phrase) - that is, the desire to “go back” to the earliest centuries of the Church and transplant bits and pieces here and there into the present as a means of justifying some sort of inorganic reform. Such growth is not organic and can lead to problems. Such was warned about by several popes I believe. There’s a name for it, but it escapes me now.

I don’t know - if all liturgies were equally effective in lifting the hearts and minds of the faithful to the contemplation of the Divine - then we’d never have to change anything, and there would be no need of development at all - organic or otherwise. Not all liturgies are created equal in this regards.

I mean God’s part - if the Sacraments are performed with proper form, matter and intent - are always infinitely perfect. Our part, not so much. It can vary from individual to individual and from liturgy to liturgy.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

So the fact then that the liturgy does continue to organically change is a good thing right?

If God has in fact, orchestrated these changes as the Church has grown and deepened in her understanding, that hasn’t stopped with the TLM has it?

The Church will continue to grow and with that growth, change will occur, which it seems she is *in fact doing *and it is occuring, but not without growing pains it seems.

Just trying to follow this line of thought.

 

[JReducation]

The motu proprio doesn’t really address religous orders - traditional folks I’ve talked with already realize this. How (or perhaps if) it affects religous orders will probably come out in a later clarification.

I think you may be getting ahead of yourself here.

It has already come up and has been brought to the Holy Father’s attention. He has already responded that the NO is the norm and TLM is EF. I’m not getting ahead. I’m sharing what is happening.

It is true that there have been exaggerations and at times social aspects unduly linked to the attitude of the faithful attached to the ancient Latin liturgical tradition. Your charity and pastoral prudence will be an incentive and guide for improving these."

This is the charity that the Holy Father is looking for. This is true and no one with a sound mind would deny this.

JR

 

[JReducation]

If the religious, by invitation of a bishop, is running a parish. Then it would seem the motu proprio would allow folks in the parish to approach the pastor and ask for a TLM. With all charity and reverence and understanding of course, as I suspect it would.

Let these folks - the parishnors and their pastors - take it from there and see what can be worked out. As you say, this really is none of our business unless we happen to be members of the parish or a clergy member of that parish. We don’t need to sit here and invent conflicts when none exists - conflicts come easy enough all by themselves.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Maybe you haven’t seen it, but there was another post on another thread dealing with this question. The poster reported that they, I’m assuming seveal people, had asked their Dominican pastor about an EF liturgy. He responded that it the Dominicans do not feel it is necessary for them to follow St. Dominic. Apparently, he explained that their mission is to preach and that they could preach using the NO as well as TLM. He added that his order would consider it if the numbers were high enough to merit replacing one mass with an EF, but this was not the case in this parish.

This person not only posted the Friar’s private email on CAF, which I find disrespectful, but posted his name and was asking how he/she could take this to Rome, bypassing the local bishop.

I don’t know what you think about this behavior, but I think it’s wrong.

I was surprised that other posters supported this person’s actions and no one called him/her on posting a private e-mail and making offensive comments about this Friar using his name online.

CAF closed down the thread. Of course, CAF never explains why they close down a thread, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this had something to do with it.

You see, there are some people out there who go to extremes.

I would like to help as many people as I can not to end up in those extremes. I hope that you will join me and others in this cause.

JR

 

[JReducation]

It allows for pastors of parishes to provide the TLM - no need for the Bishop to “give the ok” or “permit” it any longer. That’s the crucial thing here.

Couldn’t agree more. I am painfully aware of this as the ugliness of the “democracy” mindset has reared its head in my local diocese. A number of priests have formally asked the Bishop to resign in a written letter - and cc’d the local press this same letter! And the press is more than happy to splash the letter on the front pages of the local paper.

This group of priests have the full support of “Call to Action” by the way - if that tells you where they fall in the conservative-liberal spectrum.

It’s a scandal like I’ve never seen before. Horrible.

Prayers are needed. Many, many prayers.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I don’t think this is liberal or conservative. I think this is stupid. You don’t send this to the press. It’s like throwing blood in a shark pool.

It goes back to what we have been saying. You can ask for whatever you want, but keep it respectful and take what you get.

Dumb Dumb Dumb.

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

I don’t think this is liberal or conservative. I think this is stupid. You don’t send this to the press. It’s like throwing blood in a shark pool.

It goes back to what we have been saying. You can ask for whatever you want, but keep it respectful and take what you get.

Dumb Dumb Dumb.

JR

This happens all the time when people let their passions rule their thinking and behavior. Too much emotionalism is a bad thing no matter what side of the fence you’re staked out on. Nothing good ever comes from it.

 

[JReducation]

If God has in fact, orchestrated these changes as the Church has grown and deepened in her understanding, that hasn’t stopped with the TLM has it?

Jeanette, you’re making an excellent point in the area of ecclesiology. God’s care for his people and his self-disclosure does not stop. It did not stop with Pius V and will not stop with Benedict XVI. God will continue to inspire the Church and the Church will continue to struggle to understand and do its best to implement what it understands. Along the way there will be some bumps on the road, but nothing will stop the Church.

The Church will continue to grow and with that growth, change will occur, which it seems she is *in fact doing *and it is occuring, but not without growing pains it seems.

JR

 

[DustinsDad]

…You will not find a religious founder or community to debate this. We all agree on this.

I figured we did - but it bears repeating sometimes.

…There are religious communities that have already questioned the Holy Father on this and he has clarified for them that the NO is the ordinary form of the mass and that they do not have to change it, if it serves the needs of their religious. …

Sure - but it still looks like you are looking at it from a broader spectrum than the motu proprio addresses.

As per religous priests, in the hypothetical situation where they would be running a diocese parish at the invitation of the Bishop and a request was made or a need was manifest for the EF of the Latin Rite, they would have to determine how best to serve the situation. In other words, these folks will cross this bridge when and if such situations pop up. And later clarifications on the motu proprio and it’s relation to such situations will help in these situations. With prayer and patience and understanding on all sides, I trust such situations will not be conflicts, but opportunities for growth in the lives of the faithful.

As for the religious orders themselves, you are correct. The motu proprio doesn’t attempt to micromanage or “force” the TLM liturgy onto religous orders.

I’m still struggling to see what confilct exactly you are trying to avoid. This is all pretty much common sense.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[JReducation]

It allows for pastors of parishes to provide the TLM - no need for the Bishop to “give the ok” or “permit” it any longer. That’s the crucial thing here.

This is not the case for those of us who live in parishes run by religious. The superior of the house must consent. In our parish, the Pastor was toying with the idea and the superior of the house said that he had to wait until the Major Superior and the chapter decided whether it was good for the friars. Fortunately for us, our pastor and his supeior get along very well.

The pastor did a wonderful job at explaining to the laity that the Brothers had to decide what was best for them, but that we could rest assured that whatever the decision was, it would be good for all, because God takes care of all of us equally.

Some people didn’t understand how a superior who is not a priest could ask a pastor who is a priest to hold off on the EF. The pastor explained the relationship and the chain of command, etc. It was very edifying to all of us. We were able to see the humility that comes with the vow of obedience to a religious superior and the awesome responsibility that a religious superior has to preserve the charism of his community and help his subordinates perform their ministry to the best of their ability. It’s a tight rope.

As I undestand it, the major superior decided that the brothers do not need TLM, but he will consult with the Bishop on his feelings regarding the laity.

I don’t know about everyone else, but I find these balancing acts between traditional liturgy and traditions of religious orders and diocese to be very encouraging. Because they show how everyone is trying to do the best and everyone is trying to act charitably and remain faithful to what their calling in life.

Those of us who live in these parishes are being edified by examples of charity and humility, at the same time we are also learning about the inner workings of the Church, things that we didn’t know.

I hope that sharing this with everyone is a learning experience for those who are not familiar with all of this.

I believe it shows the beauty of the Mystical Body and affirms the truth that there is one spirit, but many gifts and they must all work together.

JR

 

[DustinsDad]

I don’t think this is liberal or conservative. I think this is stupid.

I think it goes beyond stupid. It goes to the very heart of what the Church** is** - and rejecting it.

As far as “liberal or conservative” - I’m going to have to disagree with you. I could go into details on the situation in the diocese I live in but will refrain. I will only say that like in much of the west - there is a sort of “silent schism” going on - and it’s not on the tradtional side.

As it relates to the topic of this thread “Is Catholicism a Democracy”…in a certain sense you are preaching to the choir telling this to traditional minded folks.

For some decades now a certain “mindset” has been very effectively pushing the concept of democracy within the Church, and now that the motu proprio has given certain rights and recognition and validation to tradtional concerns, the “left” if you will, seems to be in panic mode. That’s my humble observation anyway.

It’s very interesting.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

This is not the case for those of us who live in parishes run by religious. The superior of the house must consent. In our parish, the Pastor was toying with the idea and the superior of the house said that he had to wait until the Major Superior and the chapter decided whether it was good for the friars. Fortunately for us, our pastor and his supeior get along very well.

The pastor did a wonderful job at explaining to the laity that the Brothers had to decide what was best for them, but that we could rest assured that whatever the decision was, it would be good for all, because God takes care of all of us equally.

Some people didn’t understand how a superior who is not a priest could ask a pastor who is a priest to hold off on the EF. The pastor explained the relationship and the chain of command, etc. It was very edifying to all of us. We were able to see the humility that comes with the vow of obedience to a religious superior and the awesome responsibility that a religious superior has to preserve the charism of his community and help his subordinates perform their ministry to the best of their ability. It’s a tight rope.

As I undestand it, the major superior decided that the brothers do not need TLM, but he will consult with the Bishop on his feelings regarding the laity.

I don’t know about everyone else, but I find these balancing acts between traditional liturgy and traditions of religious orders and diocese to be very encouraging. Because they show how everyone is trying to do the best and everyone is trying to act charitably and remain faithful to what their calling in life.

Sounds like a good situation to me. Folks being charitable, understanding, and not automatically rejecting anything but proceeding with caution, and I assume, much prayer. Good job.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[JReducation]

I think it goes beyond stupid. It goes to the very heart of what the Church** is** - and rejecting it.

As far as “liberal or conservative” - I’m going to have to disagree with you. I could go into details on the situation in the diocese I live in but will refrain. I will only say that like in much of the west - there is a sort of “silent schism” going on - and it’s not on the tradtional side.

As it relates to the topic of this thread “Is Catholicism a Democracy”…in a certain sense you are preaching to the choir telling this to traditional minded folks.

For some decades now a certain “mindset” has been very effectively pushing the concept of democracy within the Church, and now that the motu proprio has given certain rights and recognition and validation to tradtional concerns, the “left” if you will, seems to be in panic mode. That’s my humble observation anyway.

It’s very interesting.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I can’t speak to your diocese. I can only speak to the dioceses for which I have worked. They have all been in the East and in Latin America. I’ve seen individuals do and say stupid things on both sides of the fence.

I guess that’s why do not identify myself as either conservative or liberal, but simply as Catholic.

As to whether or not Catholics have a “right” to the EF, that’s a matter of interpretation. When Cardinal O’Malley spoke with the Pope, his Holiness said that the NO is the ordinary form of the mass and TLM is the exception.

It’s up to those in the know to decide how the word “exception” is to be interpreted.

Several religious orders have also asked for clarification and have received the same answer.

Throw into the mix that the papal theologian MUST be a Dominican Brother, I believe that things are going to get interesting. This was in the Vatican News report. Benedict seems to be very partial to Dominican theology and spirituality. I was surprised that he did not select a secular priest for this office, one who has no ties to a particular tradition or religious culture.

At least we’re learning. I hope.

JR

 

[DustinsDad]

Maybe you haven’t seen it, but there was another post on another thread dealing with this question. The poster reported that they, I’m assuming seveal people, had asked their Dominican pastor about an EF liturgy. He responded that it the Dominicans do not feel it is necessary for them to follow St. Dominic. Apparently, he explained that their mission is to preach and that they could preach using the NO as well as TLM. He added that his order would consider it if the numbers were high enough to merit replacing one mass with an EF, but this was not the case in this parish.

No I don’t think I saw this thread. So far so good with the above - sounds okay so far.

This person not only posted the Friar’s private email on CAF, which I find disrespectful, but posted his name and was asking how he/she could take this to Rome, bypassing the local bishop. I don’t know what you think about this behavior, but I think it’s wrong.

Heh, of course this is nuts. The motu proprio lays out I think the proper channels to go through - steps to take - if someone really feels the need for the EF is strong but is being ignored unfairly. And I don’t think posting private email addresses on Internet disussion boards is listed as an option.

I was surprised that other posters supported this person’s actions and no one called him/her on posting a private e-mail and making offensive comments about this Friar using his name online.

Well, I didn’t see the thread, but as you describe it, it doesn’t sound right at all.

CAF closed down the thread. Of course, CAF never explains why they close down a thread, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this had something to do with it.

I think posting names of clergy alongside charges like you mention is against the rules here - the thread as you describe it would have violated it.

I would like to help as many people as I can not to end up in those extremes. I hope that you will join me and others in this cause.

But of course .

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

I can’t speak to your diocese. I can only speak to the dioceses for which I have worked. They have all been in the East and in Latin America. I’ve seen individuals do and say stupid things on both sides of the fence.

For the record, I live in one diocese and a member at the neighboring St. Louis Archdiocese. The beforementioned letter and situation is in the diocese where I live on the east side of the Mississippi. This clarification just for the folks who know me and might be confused as to which diocese I was referring to.

Throw into the mix that the papal theologian MUST be a Dominican Brother, I believe that things are going to get interesting. This was in the Vatican News report. Benedict seems to be very partial to Dominican theology and spirituality. …

At St. Francis de Sales Oratory where I attend, we just had our Lenton Retreat weekend before last. The first two conferences (talks) were given by a Dominican priest. Very good talks. He’d have made the Holy Father proud!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

So the fact then that the liturgy does continue to organically change is a good thing right?

Yes.

If God has in fact, orchestrated these changes as the Church has grown and deepened in her understanding, that hasn’t stopped with the TLM has it?

No of course not. But alot of folks within the Church have forgotten to value and revere and hold fast to alot of what HMC has given us throughout the centuries. And rediscovering this is an eye opener and a great thing for many.

For myself as an example, I was born in 1969, fell away for all to long, then came back home by the grace if God and had the reconversion expereince. Then, later still, when I discovered the TLM and the traditional devotions and the older encyclicals and such, it was like just going deeper and deeper and deeper spiritually. I must admit, there was a feeling of a certain amount of being “cheated” - in the sense of wondering “where has this been hiding all my life!?! And why?!?”

But more than that passing thought, the real powerful aspect of finding “traditon” if you will, has been in a sense like falling in love all over again with this* same* awesome Bride of Christ, who is even more awesome and more beautiful than I ever realized before - even when I was fired up and back in the faith strongly.

I don’t know, hard to explain in words. It’s just that growth shouldn’t mean repudiating or forgetting the good and true of what HMC has given us. Growing means building on that to build up the body of Christ the Church, and using that to grow deeper spiritually ourselves.

The Church will continue to grow and with that growth, change will occur, which it seems she is *in fact doing *and it is occuring, but not without growing pains it seems.

Just trying to follow this line of thought.

Yeah, but I think some of these growing pains we are experincing now came from going too fast, too soon, and in many areas, going where the Church never intended to go in the first place. We’ve got to be honest with ourselves and realize that not every change is or was good, that just because something is “new” doesn’t make it “better.” Sometimes we gotta turn around and look where we are, just to make sure we haven’t wandered off the authentic path of HMC.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[JReducation]

At St. Francis de Sales Oratory where I attend, we just had our Lenton Retreat weekend before last. The first two conferences (talks) were given by a Dominican priest. Very good talks. He’d have made the Holy Father proud!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

The Dominican Friars are excellent preachers. That’s what they were founded for and they have done a very good job at it for 800 years. I have great respect for them.

They have produced some excellent theologians and philosophers.

Even they have said that they will treat the EF as the exception, not the norm and the papal theologian seems to agree with this.

They are also very strong on balance between belief and intellect. I like their love for the Church while at the same time they have a great love for Dominic. They have been treated badly by many conservatives, unfarily so, because they have just been fulfilling Dominic’s wishes, to explore all possibilities in order to preach the truth.

People can’t seem to separate the pulpit from the university classroom. Just because the Dominicans do good theology in the classroom, which often calls into question traditional Church teaching doesn’t mean that they are preaching this from the pulpit. They have been given a bumb rap for being good scholars.

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

Yes.

No of course not. But alot of folks within the Church have forgotten to value and revere and hold fast to alot of what HMC has given us throughout the centuries. And rediscovering this is an eye opener and a great thing for many.

For myself as an example, I was born in 1969, fell away for all to long, then came back home by the grace if God and had the reconversion expereince. Then, later still, when I discovered the TLM and the traditional devotions and the older encyclicals and such, it was like just going deeper and deeper and deeper spiritually. I must admit, there was a feeling of a certain amount of being “cheated” - in the sense of wondering “where has this been hiding all my life!?! And why?!?”

But more than that passing thought, the real powerful aspect of finding “traditon” if you will, has been in a sense like falling in love all over again with this* same* awesome Bride of Christ, who is even more awesome and more beautiful than I ever realized before - even when I was fired up and back in the faith strongly.

I don’t know, hard to explain in words. It’s just that growth shouldn’t mean repudiating or forgetting the good and true of what HMC has given us. Growing means building on that to build up the body of Christ the Church, and using that to grow deeper spiritually ourselves.

Yeah, but I think some of these growing pains we are experincing now came from going too fast, too soon, and in many areas, going where the Church never intended to go in the first place. We’ve got to be honest with ourselves and realize that not every change is or was good, that just because something is “new” doesn’t make it “better.” Sometimes we gotta turn around and look where we are, just to make sure we haven’t wandered off the authentic path of HMC.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

And what you are saying about the TLM, I say about the NO - those that I have experienced. I have found beauty in it and a sense of wonder every time. I can’t imagine going to a Mass and receiving the Eucharist and not finding beauty and wonder, no matter what is going on around me.

And I understand that there have been a lot of abuses because the Church is so big and keeping a tight reign on every parish during a transition is nearly impossible, it takes time for the dust to settle and for God’s work to shine through. But we have to have faith that it will all work out and for the better, for everyone. If we don’t have faith in this, then what are we saying about the Church and what we actually believe about her and her destiny? Even if it takes another generation or two, the Holy Spirit will prevail.

The big picture, that’s all I’m saying. If we keep our hearts and minds centered on Christ, we will all make it through this transition.

 

[JReducation]

Yes.
For myself as an example, I was born in 1969, fell away for all to long, then came back home by the grace if God and had the reconversion expereince. Then, later still, when I discovered the TLM and the traditional devotions and the older encyclicals and such, it was like just going deeper and deeper and deeper spiritually. I must admit, there was a feeling of a certain amount of being “cheated” - in the sense of wondering “where has this been hiding all my life!?! And why?!?”

But more than that passing thought, the real powerful aspect of finding “traditon” if you will, has been in a sense like falling in love all over again with this* same* awesome Bride of Christ, who is even more awesome and more beautiful than I ever realized before - even when I was fired up and back in the faith strongly.

I don’t know, hard to explain in words. It’s just that growth shouldn’t mean repudiating or forgetting the good and true of what HMC has given us. Growing means building on that to build up the body of Christ the Church, and using that to grow deeper spiritually ourselves.

DustinsDad

As I’m reading your personal experience here, I can see something about you that I had not seen before. You’re returning to the Church after having been estranged from her.

Now you’re looking for the depth that was there and that you missed out on. It feels like being cheated.

You know, the depth is still there. Yes, there have been idiots who have made mistakes and who have done harm. But the good thing with the Church is that you can never destroy her. She heals well.

If I may be so bold as to suggest that you move ahead one step. You may find it beautiful and find that not everything is so different. If you haven’t already done so, why don’t you try to adopt one of the spiritualities of the Church. You may be looking for a deeper and more intimate experience of God. This is not to say that the liturgy does not do this. But even the great saints found that the liturgy was both the focal point and the starting point. It served as the beginning and the end of the spiritual life.

Have you ever read Teresa of Avila’s The Way of Pefection? If you like a simpler spirituality, read St. Bonaventure’s or Chesterton’s biographies of St. Francis of Assis or St. Francis’ rule of 1223. You may want to look at the Lay Missionaries of Charity (Mother Teresa’s group). Read their rule and spirituality here.

laymc.bizland.com/

I belong to them. It’s an awesome community.

Let me know what you think.

JR

 

[JReducation]

And what you are saying about the TLM, I say about the NO - those that I have experienced. I have found beauty in it and a sense of wonder every time. I can’t imagine going to a Mass and receiving the Eucharist and not finding beauty and wonder, no matter what is going on around me.

And I understand that there have been a lot of abuses because the Church is so big and keeping a tight reign on every parish during a transition is nearly impossible, it takes time for the dust to settle and for God’s work to shine through. But we have to have faith that it will all work out and for the better, for everyone. If we don’t have faith in this, then what are we saying about the Church and what we actually believe about her and her destiny? Even if it takes another generation or two, the Holy Spirit will prevail.

The big picture, that’s all I’m saying. If we keep our hearts and minds centered on Christ, we will all make it through this transition.

Jeanette:

Yours is the faith of the great reformers such as Francis of Assisi, St. Bruno, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Vincent de Paul, St. John Baptiste de La Salle, Archbishop Carrol, Mother Teresa.

They knew that there were abuses. They also knew that things would take time, but they also saw Christ in what they were doing. They knew that as the dust settle, Christ’s face would shine through it all. I believe this was also the mind of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II.

You’re in good company.

JR

 

[DustinsDad]

As I’m reading your personal experience here, I can see something about you that I had not seen before. You’re returning to the Church after having been estranged from her.

Now you’re looking for the depth that was there and that you missed out on. It feels like being cheated.

Yeah sort of. Keep in mind this return was about 15 years ago. Being “cheated” may be a harsh term - but discovering the TLM (and everything that goes with it) is sort of like discovering a brilliant diamond that had been put in a closet and ignored…a brilliant diamond that many refered to as a hunk of unnecessary granite.

Part of it for me was* already* being drawn into the faith deeply (and much thanks to folks like CA, and the popular conservative apologists) - I already loved the mass, I already had a strong faith in Our Lord in the Eucharist. Experiencing the TLM was like outwardly expressing in a crystal clear way, living, what we are already *profess *to believe as Catholics.

In addition to the liturgy itself, looking around me at the TLM I saw young children, teenagers, young adults, adults, the elderly - all of them to a person, along with the priests and servers at the altar - just so deep in prayer - so reverant - so obviously aware of the reality of what was going on on the altar, that it just, I don’t know, took my breath away. I was humbled. Now at the time I was lucky to be in a pretty good orthodox N.O. parish with a good solid priest. I had seen alot of abuses elsewhere, but it wasn’t like I was desparate, I just recognized something there that I had never seen before. And the fact that most catholic folks I knew, even the faithful non-cafeteria variety, looked at the TLM (and the fact that I was so “struck” by it) with suspicion…I don’t know…it made me realize something was amiss in Holy Mother Church. Or I should say, in the minds of many individuals within Holy Mother Church.

Reading the actual text of the TLM, the prayers, also struck me…it’s not just (like I had previously thought) simply the regular mass said in another language. It was more than that. The TLM did deepen my appreciation and understanding of the* sacrificial* nature of the mass - the mass remember, that I already loved.

And then when one goes beyond the TLM itself and reads the old encyclicals, the documents of the previous Councils, etc., you begin to realize that alot - an awful lot - has been put in the closet so to speak.

You know, the depth is still there. Yes, there have been idiots who have made mistakes and who have done harm. But the good thing with the Church is that you can never destroy her. She heals well.

And let’s just hope and pray that folks don’t rebel too strongly against the medicine.

Now I do believe that we are in a state of* extreme* crisis right now - huge. Not crisis as in the Church is going to fail - that’s impossible. I know the Church prevails until the end of time - that’s a given. But we are not assured it will prevail in our own back yard - or within our own families, etc. In short, we are the Church Militant, and we are at war. The Church wins in the end but souls are won and lost in the process here and now.

Part of the medicine for this crisis is rediscovering that “stuff” that’s been in the closet for all-too-long. I said part. The other part is prayer, prayer, and more prayer.

If I may be so bold as to suggest that you move ahead one step. You may find it beautiful and find that not everything is so different. If you haven’t already done so, why don’t you try to adopt one of the spiritualities of the Church. You may be looking for a deeper and more intimate experience of God. This is not to say that the liturgy does not do this. But even the great saints found that the liturgy was both the focal point and the starting point. It served as the beginning and the end of the spiritual life.

Have you ever read Teresa of Avila’s The Way of Pefection? If you like a simpler spirituality, read St. Bonaventure’s or Chesterton’s biographies of St. Francis of Assis or St. Francis’ rule of 1223. You may want to look at the Lay Missionaries of Charity (Mother Teresa’s group). Read their rule and spirituality here.

laymc.bizland.com/

I belong to them. It’s an awesome community

Let me know what you think.

Thanks, I will take a look. I’ve recently been diving into St. Francis de Sales “Introduction to the Devout Life”. Have you read/studied it?

And peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[JReducation]

Part of the medicine for this crisis is rediscovering that “stuff” that’s been in the closet for all-too-long. I said part. The other part is prayer, prayer, and more prayer.

Thanks, I will take a look. I’ve recently been diving into St. Francis de Sales “Introduction to the Devout Life”. Have you read/studied it?

And peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I’m not so sure that TLM is the medicine for everyone. Though I will admit that it will help many people. There is more to be done in the Church than bring back TLM. There is also much good going on, that we do not see or that does not make the daily news.

I guess I’ve been very fortunate. Because I feel the same at all four forms of the liturgy: NO, TLM, Byzantine and Orthodox. They each bring an element that I find uplifting and spiritually nurturing. Even though the elements are different, my experience of Christ, his Church and his glory are the same at all of them.

The next step for me was to explore the mystical side of the Christian life. I knew that the faithful has always benefited from the liturgy, but I had also heard of the mystics. I had heard that they had transcended and entered into the mystery of the Eucharist even when they were not at mass. That’s why I went to graduate school to study theology. I wanted to learn about this experience. I majored in mysticism. Then I was curious as to the logic behind it and I went back to study philosophy of theology. That did it for me. Everything became very clear. As St. Ambrose said, “theology sheds light on faith.”

Among the mystics that greatly affected my life were St. Francis, Teresa of Avila, John XXIII, Mother Teresa, John Paul II, Elizabeth Seton, Edith Stein, and John the Evangelist.

I am also familiar with the other mystics. St. Francis de Sales and Jane de Chantal are two of my favorites. I especially enjoy their letters to each other, because they bring the spiritual life to its practical dimension, the eveyday affairs.

I remember having to write a very long paper on the Introduction to the Devout Life from a philosophical perspective for one of my PhD courses. I had read it in my MA program and discussed it at great length, but this time I had to analyze its logic and how it complemented reason. I found it fascinating. The first time I read it, I read it in English and found it a little arid. By the time I read it the second time, my French was much improved and I read it in French and it made much more sense. I found it beautiful.

One of the benefits of going to school in Europe is that they make you learn the languages of the writers and you have to read them in their original texts. I found many parallels between St. Francis de Sales and Francis of Assisi, espcially their love for simplicity in the search for union with God Letting go and letting God be God, as I call it, was refreshing, because it takes a great deal of stress out of the devout life. We often try so hard at being good Christians that we end up burning outselves out and are still stuck at the door.

Another important contribution that de Sales makes to Christian spirituality is the concept of trust. God is everything to him and God can do anything. If we put him in context of the France of his day, we know that this was not an easy time to be a Christian, probably worse than today. Yet, de Sales approaches faith with such a light heart and a sense of humour. You may want to read his biography before you finish reading the Introduction. The biography will give you some insight into what he is talking about, because the Introduction flows from his experience. His great love for children inspired me to shift from teaching at the unviersity to working with disabled children. I chose the disabled under the inspiration of St. Francis of Assisi.

What I did was put the two together. That worked for me. Now, when I go to the Eucharist, in any form, I find Christ and his glory much more accessible. A spiritual rule of life, certainly helps. It’s like a map. Mother Teresa and St. Francis of Assisi have a wonderful map that they share.

Don’t forget to check out that site that I sent you. I think you may like it.

It’s the whole idea of a map that has always attracted me to finding parishes administered by religious. Because they not only celebrate the sacraments, but they put them within the context of a map, if that makes any sense.

Try it, you’ll like itl

JR