Is Catholicism disappearing in Europe?

[Image_of_God]

What is happening in Europe? Is the decline of Catholicism really as bad as I think? Is there any hope?

Appreciate answers.

 

[RNRobert]

From what I understand, Europe is contracepting itself into extinction and will probably be mostly Muslim in 30 years.

 

[francesco920]

From what I understand, Europe is contracepting itself into extinction and will probably be mostly Muslim in 30 years.

Contracepting and aborting.

I wonder what freedoms atheists, agnostics, pagans, etc. will have when Europe becomes Eurabia?

Pray for Europe’s conversion.

 

[Ace86]

Contracepting and aborting.

I wonder what freedoms atheists, agnostics, pagans, etc. will have when Europe becomes Eurabia?

Pray for Europe’s conversion.

And who’s fault is it? The Europeans!! (I was going to make a nasty joke about it being the French…snicker snicker )

 

[leonie]

Did it start with the enlightenment? Or, the French revolution? Or was it as late as the world wars?

When did Europe begin to lose its faith? What was the trigger?

 

[El_Paulo]

Contrary to popular opinion, Eurpeans are not converting to Islam, they are being lost to religious apathy. Of course, then the argument is that Muslims will move in and ‘convert’ Europe by osmosis, but that ain’t gonna happen either. Doom-mongers in Europe, such as Maranatha and the Barnabas Trust are predicting that Muslims are already in high positions within European governments and that Sharia law is just around the corner - but again, that’s not dissimilar to the apocalyptic “prophecy preachers” of your great country. Such rhetoric frightens people and stunts dialogue. In Britain, there is relatively little outcry for an Islamic State.

I’m all for the rights of Muslims and other faith groups in Europe - especially if it’s a right that we already enjoy as Christians, it should be extended - Islam’s foray into Europe will be good for the faith since it will HAVE to dialogue with Christian (and Western) values and maybe that will change the religion from the inside-out, doing what the “West” failed to do by going into Afghanistan and Iraq. Fear not, history is full of ups and downs, and Europe’s history is no different

I’m sure it’s something God can handle.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Muslims don’t need to convert Europe. They are repopulating it.

 

[El_Paulo]

Muslims don’t need to convert Europe. They are repopulating it.

By no means.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

Islam’s foray into Europe will be good for the faith since it will HAVE to dialogue with Christian (and Western) values and maybe that will change the religion from the inside-out, doing what the “West” failed to do by going into Afghanistan and Iraq.

who knows, God permits evil so that greater good may come about. i think giving rights to isalm is short sighted. i think they will only use that against us in the end. i’m more pessimistic about the islam in europe. relativistic secularism is going to fall hard by isalm. i think europe and england deserve it.

 

[brotherhrolf]

And who’s fault is it? The Europeans!! (I was going to make a nasty joke about it being the French…snicker snicker )

Go right ahead. I’ll be right behind you. Our French roots are showing

 

[El_Paulo]

who knows, God permits evil so that greater good may come about. i think giving rights to isalm is short sighted. i think they will only use that against us in the end.

Why? If they don’t have the rights that other religions (incuding Christianity) enjoy then they will continue to think that the West has it in for them and our relationship will go even further into decline. This sounds a little like getting a retaliation in first!

i’m more pessimistic about the islam in europe. relativistic secularism is going to fall hard by isalm. i think europe and england deserve it.

As Christians, aren’t we called to prefer the other, to try to understand and to love those who we find strange to us? In actual fact, aren’t Christians supposed to give up their rights for the good of others? There is no evidence that Islamic rights are being introduced to the detriment of other religions in Europe - most of that is to do with a zenophobic media - and if by any chance Islamic laws do start to infringe on those who enjoy citizenship of Europe but are not Muslim, then Christians will stand up for them too I’m sure. At the moment, Muslims in Britain and Europe are a persecuted minority mainly thanks to “Western” foreign policy culminating in the action of the last few years.

There is no crisis. Please don’t belive the scare-mongers who want to portray Islam, and thus every Muslim in Europe, as evil.

 

[Moneo]

What is happening in Europe? Is the decline of Catholicism really as bad as I think? Is there any hope?

Appreciate answers.

Hi Image of God:

I’ve got a couple of posts you might be interested in, vis-a-vis one corner of Europe in any case, in a thread I started in the Catholic News forum. There are some links to news articles in the British media as well, about recent controversies in Spain.

Just saves me time re-typing some of my thoughts here!

 

[Moneo]

There is no crisis. Please don’t belive the scare-mongers who want to portray Islam, and thus every Muslim in Europe, as evil.

That would be lovely to believe, but then things like this, and this and this keep happening, and, mate, I have to wonder. Yes, I know; scare-mongers. But then, how many of these incidents must occur before you begin to think that there may just be a problem after all?

Then again, the U.S. isn’t exactly immune from the problem either. See here.

Of course, the tensions could just be, as you say, the result of being a persecuted minority … ooops! Silly me … wrong minority.

I’m sorry El Paulo, but I just don’t buy it any longer.

 

[RNRobert]

That would be lovely to believe, but then things like this, and this and this keep happening, and, mate, I have to wonder. Yes, I know; scare-mongers. But then, how many of these incidents must occur before you begin to think that there may just be a problem after all?

Then again, the U.S. isn’t exactly immune from the problem either. See here.

Of course, the tensions could just be, as you say, the result of being a persecuted minority … ooops! Silly me … wrong minority.

I’m sorry El Paulo, but I just don’t buy it any longer.

I agree. And add to the above the Dutch filmmaker who was murdered by a Muslim, the riots over the Danish cartoons, and the Islamic riots in France.

After September 11, the talking heads fell all over themselves saying that Islam is a religion of peace. It’s a religion of peace only where it’s a minority.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

el paulo, are you sure you’re catholic? you sound like a imposter–where’s the inquisition when you need it.

seriously, you are the minority. everyone i talk to is worried about islam, even the pope. what they do is ask for certain rights under the guise of being unjustly discriminated against and use those rights ultimately against us so that they can establish a islamic state.

In actual fact, aren’t Christians supposed to give up their rights for the good of others?

that doesn’t make sense. a right is something good that is irrevocable, such as the right to life. you may not do evil so that good may result.

i’m glad you’re in england and not here in the u.s. we take this more seriously than you. we lost over 2,900 innocent americans on sept. 11, most of which were catholic. hopefully, we won’t be stupid enough to let muslims take our country and way of life from us. i respect islam inasmuch as they pray to the God of abraham, give alms and stand for natural law. but their track record sucks. i call a spade a spade. the only good muslim is a westernized moderate muslim.

england has been going down the sewer pipe since the sins of henry the 8th–the fat jerk that he was.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

Slightly off topic, but can our US friends please, please stop refering to the UK as England. It is offensive and irritating to UK citizens of Wales, Scotland and Northen Ireland.

 

[rpp]

Slightly off topic, but can our US friends please, please stop refering to the UK as England. It is offensive and irritating to UK citizens of Wales, Scotland and Northen Ireland.

Well, it wan’t me. I learned this lesson after being slapped silly by a Scotsman at a business dinner. Actually he did not strike, he was most polite, in fact. But he was quite firm, and complete with historical examples, as if he was well practised at that sort of correction. He was a very bright fellow - er - chap.

Back to the thread…

I think from what I see, there are a couple of problems. The terrible after-effect of the Reformation is still pressurring Europe. Many believe that their violent history was due to the Catholic/Protestant controversies. That is sadly untrue, but nevertheless, the impression of many.

As a consequence, some do not view with particular dismay the growing influence and prevelance of Islam in Europe. Particularly in the way Islam is growing; not by conversion, but by immigration. That is a very dangerous scenario.

Many seem indifferent to it or believe that it might actually be a positive thing. These people have been tragicly misled by the preposterous concept that all cultures are somehow equal and deserve equal repect.

I not say Islam is evil. I will say that Islam, as it is practised appears to tolerate gross and stupendous evils. Personally, I give Europe between 8 and 12 years before there is a major violent showdown with Islamic nations. There will be a war. Europe will loose. Visit Rome while you can.

 

[El_Paulo]

I want appeal to a sense of balance and to give a response to this issue that I believe is measured and reasonable - because it affects the lives of many people in our countries (though I speak with particular knowledge of the English experience).

I’d like to take the previous posts in two parts - first of all with regard to some of the content…

I was going to make a nasty joke about it being the French…snicker snicker

Go right ahead. I’ll be right behind you.

england has been going down the sewer pipe since the sins of henry the 8th–the fat jerk that he was.

i think europe and england deserve it.

the only good muslim is a westernized moderate muslim.

My initial response to these remarks, unless I have misunderstood them, is to find them bigoted and designed to offend and antagonize - I do not see how they can be justified - if there was an underlying point to them, it has been poorly made.
In making this conclusion, how can I then take the other comments, made about Europe and Islam, seriously when there is nonsense like the above being spouted as well?

el paulo, are you sure you’re catholic? you sound like a imposter–where’s the inquisition when you need it.

I hope that was a joke, though I can’t quite tell from the way you’ve worded it!
However, I will not respond in kind. My Catholicism is the very thing that is informing my approach to this difficult issue (I’m sure the same is true for you) - but I think the situation regarding Islam and Europe needs a thoughtful response rather than a knee-jerk reaction that obscures the humanity of all those involved.

Secondly, I want to address the reasoning which many of the previous comments seem to have been ‘backed up’ with…

Of course, the tensions could just be, as you say, the result of being a persecuted minority … ooops! Silly me … wrong minority.

I certainly never insinuated that evil such as this wasn’t going on.
The persecution of human beings anywhere on the planet is a scandal and it’s a childish reaction to ‘play them off’ against each other as if one is worse than the other - BOTH are an affront to the image of Christ, in the persecuted and the persecutor. By making a comment like that, one validates it.

That would be lovely to believe, but then things like this, and this and this keep happening, and, mate, I have to wonder. Yes, I know; scare-mongers. But then, how many of these incidents must occur before you begin to think that there may just be a problem after all?

.
I see and hear reports like this every day, and I’m certainly not denying that it goes on - what I’m trying to highlight (and I think it needs highlighting from what has been written on this thread so far) that this is not the whole story. In England, Muslims (in the main) are currently going though a hard time for the sins of their brothers and sisters, which I as a Catholic deplore along with them. An understanding and supportive response is the ONE THING I believe is going to start breaking the clouds that hang over Islam and the West.

Please don’t misunderstand, I didn’t say there wasn’t a problem. What I’m saying is that the ‘problem’ in most of Europe, and in the UK (which is where I can speak for) is not the crisis that people are making it out to be. That’s why comments like the one below are dangerous since they do not recognize the current state of things and fail to acknowledge the wonderful work that is being done by Christians and Muslims and which is bearing much fruit…

Personally, I give Europe between 8 and 12 years before there is a major violent showdown with Islamic nations. There will be a war. Europe will loose. Visit Rome while you can.

…Britain and Islam (and certainly Christians) aren’t about to go to war! I live in a city of a million people - 140 000 are Muslim and we are trying to live in some harmony - we need to set an example. My view may be a minority view but at least it’s from a position of experience as we try to support a community that feels attacked from within AND without, from those who want to exact revenge for 9/11, 7/7 etc, and from those in their ranks who support, at least vocally, attacks against the West. Our community was not responsible for 9/11 and 7/7, no matter how many people want to make them responsible for it.

 

[El_Paulo]

This thread is about Catholicism disappearing in Europe - it is going through a hard time - but someone then mentioned that Europe would be Muslim in 30 years time - this view is a sound bite that is designed to set one culture against another and to foster distrust against a faith that most people do not dialogue with on serious basis. Again, do not join in.
Even if it goes pear-shaped tomorrow at least I can rest easy in the knowledge that I did my part to remain a friend to the Muslims I know - I’ll take St Francis’ example. It’s not about winning, it’s about doing what’s right.

that doesn’t make sense. a right is something good that is irrevocable, such as the right to life. you may not do evil so that good may result.

Muslims should enjoy the rights than any person living in Europe enjoys - surely there can’t be an argument against this? An enlightened democracy cannot remove them, even from those who might not ultimately extend the same courtesy.
When I was talking about giving up our rights for the good of others I was pointing to Christ’s example - he gave up his rights as God; he emptied himself for those who did not deserve or understand the act - the relationship of Israel to Roman Empire at that time could be likened to the “Muslim” world and the West today, but consider Jesus’ response; They will know we are Christians by our love…?

…we’ll see.

seriously, you are the minority. everyone i talk to is worried about islam, even the pope. what they do is ask for certain rights under the guise of being unjustly discriminated against and use those rights ultimately against us so that they can establish a islamic state.

You’re talking about Islam throughout the world. In my part of the world they ARE discriminated against - in other parts, they do the discriminating - either way, Christians should be there standing up for the oppressed and not justifying oppression because of their misguided brethren elsewhere. There needs to be balance, that’s all I’m saying.

i’m glad you’re in england and not here in the u.s. we take this more seriously than you. we lost over 2,900 innocent americans on sept. 11, most of which were catholic. hopefully, we won’t be stupid enough to let muslims take our country and way of life from us. i respect islam inasmuch as they pray to the God of abraham, give alms and stand for natural law. but their track record sucks. i call a spade a spade.

Cheers for that comment!

So let’s hear people’s thoughts and none of this rhetoric. I’ve pointed out what I feel is right in this situation and what concerns I have with some of the previous posts, and I own the position I have taken.
I’d be interested to know, how do folks propose to stop Muslims ‘taking over’ without resorting to injustice and violence, because it seems to me that any non-violent and democratic way of doing it has been argued away? What do people suggest?

 

[BlazingBolt]

Isn’t Portugal safe?