Is Catholicism disappearing in Europe?

[rpp]

El Paulo.

I appreciate you helping to keep this conversation civil.

However, I must disagree with you on some of your points.

Not everyone, in fact I would actually say few people who fear Islam, as I do, do so out of Revenge for Sept. 11, or the July 7 attacks in London, or the March 11 attackes in Madrid, the bobing of the US Navy ship the USS Cole, or the bombing of the African embasies, or the bombings of the Khobar Towers, or the…

No many people like me fear Islam for what it is, a religion that from it’s very inception, has used war and the sword to spread. When I say from the beginning, Mohammed himself lead battles and attackes. He killed soldiers and non-combatants alike. So when a Moslem, confronted by a moral decision says to himself “What would the Prophet do?” they get a different answer than a Christian who asks “What would Jesus do?”

In the same generation that saw the American Revolution saw Islamic armies attack, besiege and nearly conquer Vienna Austria. Europe won that battle by the skin of it’s teeth in 1793.

While it is true they have very strict moral codes, there is no tradition of toleration whatsoever. None at all. Examples? In Indonesia, non-Moslems cannot adopt children, even if the children come from non-Moslem parents. In Saudi Arabia, travellers and visitors cannot bring a Bible or Christian prayer books. The same is true in Tunisia, and, for that matter, most Islamic countries.

Islam teaches that it is permissible to convert a person using coercian including threats oif death to the person or their family. This is exactly what happened to two Fox News journalists who were Kidnapped by Hamas in 2006.

There is much to fear in Islam. That fear has nothing to do with revenge for recent events. It is a fear based on theie consistant behaviour for nearly 1400 years.

 

[rpp]

Isn’t Portugal safe?

Personally, I only consider Heaven safe.

 

[BlazingBolt]

I thought that was something from the apparitions at Fatima, that Portugal would never lose the faith…

 

[awalt]

CA Live had an excellent show on January 3rd, you can grab it here

The speaker was Serge Trifkovic, who has a pretty extensive educational, writing, and speaking background.

His main point - Islam is not only a faith, it is a political state. To assume Islam does not have intention, directly out of the Kuran and other books he has cited, to turn the world into either Islamic rule and worship or secondary citizens is ignoring their teaching. I don’t explain it as well as he does of course.

You should listen to this radio broadcast - pretty scary.

 

[Moneo]

I want appeal to a sense of balance and to give a response to this issue that I believe is measured and reasonable …

I applaud your desire to do so. I too found some of the comments gratuitous and offensive, but one will always find that on forums where people are allowed to post anonymously.

I certainly never insinuated that evil such as this wasn’t going on. The persecution of human beings anywhere on the planet is a scandal and it’s a childish reaction to ‘play them off’ against each other as if one is worse than the other - BOTH are an affront to the image of Christ, in the persecuted and the persecutor. By making a comment like that, one validates it.

I’m sorry you feel that the comment was “childish”; I was aiming for ironic. But I don’t mind telling you that I disagree with you: it wasn’t and it validates nothing. Because, my friend, I just don’t see the sort of widespread, systematic persecution to which Christians who live in Muslim societies whose civil law is based upon the Shariah actually happening to Muslims in the West. Muslims in western countries enjoy *enormous *religious and civil liberties that Christians in Islamic countries simply do not. They are free to build mosques, practise their faith and proselytize openly, and educate their children in Quranic schools.

Muslims should enjoy the rights than any person living in Europe enjoys - surely there can’t be an argument against this?

No, there most certainly isn’t; I want them to be able to do so! As long as, and only if, they are capable of abiding by the rules and learning to play nice with the rest of us. Playing nice means, among other things, not having a collective tantrum every time someone says anything which is unfavourable or even the least bit critical of Islam. You found a lot of the comments in previous posts bigoted and intentionally antagonistic? Well, so is the Muslim claim that every single objection to their precious “revelation” is merely the product of “prejudice”, “bigotry”, “Islamophobia”, “racism” etc., etc. ad nauseum. As I wrote elsewhere on these forums, it honestly gets tiring because it is childish, anti-intellectual and really sounds like the defense of a group of people who don’t actually have any arguments to offer.

I see and hear reports like this every day, and I’m certainly not denying that it goes on - what I’m trying to highlight (and I think it needs highlighting from what has been written on this thread so far) that this is not the whole story. In England, Muslims (in the main) are currently going though a hard time for the sins of their brothers and sisters, which I as a Catholic deplore along with them. An understanding and supportive response is the ONE THING I believe is going to start breaking the clouds that hang over Islam and the West.

Please don’t misunderstand, I didn’t say there wasn’t a problem. What I’m saying is that the ‘problem’ in most of Europe, and in the UK (which is where I can speak for) is not the crisis that people are making it out to be. That’s why comments like the one below are dangerous since they do not recognize the current state of things and fail to acknowledge the wonderful work that is being done by Christians and Muslims and which is bearing much fruit…

I wish I were as optimistic as you are, I truly, truly do. And if you genuinely live the way you type, then I have no problem telling you (no irony here mate!) that you are an exceptional human being. But you see, I do happen to think we’ve got a serious problem brewing here, and it’s one that promises to get a whole lot worse before it gets any better in my opinion. I don’t think that whitewashing or glossing it over does anyone any good.

'Cos you see, what I definitely don’t see is an organised, sustained effort on the part of the supposedly “moderate Muslims” in western countries to organise, speak out and condemn those who are supposedly hijacking their “religion of peace” and distorting its face to the world. The very few who do (and who definitely deserve our support, of course) live in fear of being condemned as heretics or apostates and attacked and killed themselves. What’s more, the continuous stream of fatwas from high ranking Islamic clerics and scholars makes it clear that the principal schools of Quranic thought are most definitely not in their corner.

Then there’s *this *cuddly little Paddington Bear from the UK’s very own protest march in London in the midst of the Danish cartoon controversy … now just imagine how long this guy and his mates would last on the streets of London if he were a BNP supporter with a sign that read “Exterminate those who preach Islam”. This is the kind of aggressive nonsense we tolerate in the West which makes me fear for our future.

I repeat, you seem a very good sort who is genuinely striving to do what Christ commanded us to do. I would appreciate your prayers for me that I might do so too. God bless.

 

[Eireann]

Slightly off topic, but can our US friends please, please stop refering to the UK as England. It is offensive and irritating to UK citizens of Wales, Scotland and Northen Ireland.

Some citizens in the northern part of Ireland take offense at putting UK and Ireland in the same sentence.

 

[tdandh26]

Two extremely good and in depth books you can get that will help you understand how mohomedism progressed and works, are “The Crusades” and “The Great Heresies” both by Hilaire Belloc.

 

[El_Paulo]

Thanks for the responses to the two posts Moneo and rpp - I guess I did ask for them!
In addition, I apologise if I caused offence - beliefs are held very strongly on this subject and that is to be respected - I did not want to diminish the importance and feling of what was said. Peace.

However, I would like to summarize my standpoint coz I realize that I did waffle on a bit in what was a long post! - I think this is partly to do with the fact that I was focussing on a purely British/European experience of Muslim communities which, I will concede, is very different from that of other parts of the world.

1. I agree with many here that there is a fundamental problem with Islam, and with the Muslim assertion that it is a ‘religion of peace’.
2. European Islam (as I experience it) is a very different animal, and those communities must not be treated as if they hold the same views as the majority their fellows in the rest of the world (as you rightly say Moneo). Many are here to escape that very thing! Islam is made up of many tribes and cultures and not all of them friendly with one another - this is to the Christian advantage.
3. I am dismayed at the continual quoting of Islamic atrocities (though I detest them as much as the next person) - the reason being that those Muslims who are sorry for them, know all too well what has been done ‘in their name’ - and those who revel in them, simply don’t care. For European host communities, these litanies serve only to thrust a wedge between them and their next door neighbours, stunting dialogue, raising suspicions and re-enforcing stereotypes.
4. Christianity is Good News, and must be in dialogue with Islam - there is great stuff happening here in Europe but more NEEDS to be done! An example can be found in a group of young Christians and Muslims who meet in the south of our city. They debate and socialise and pray together for peace.
5. The ‘Christian’ West needs to look at its part in the 1400 year history of Islam and ask whether it contributed to the situation we have today.

To conclude, I would like to ask people for a response to the question I asked earlier…

How do we stop Islam ‘taking over’ and perpetrating similar atrocities to those elsewhere? What should a Catholic response in Europe to this look like?

Blessings and prayers,

El Paulo.

 

[Moneo]

… 4) Christianity is Good News, and must be in dialogue with Islam - there is great stuff happening here in Europe but more NEEDS to be done! An example can be found in a group of young Christians and Muslims who meet in the south of our city. They debate and socialise and pray together for peace …

To conclude, I would like to ask people for a response to the question I asked earlier…

Hello again El Paulo!

I am going to mull over your question this afternoon and give it my best shot later. I may not get back to it today, but get back to it I shall, because it is an issue that I am very concerned about indeed.

I just want to let you know once more (in case it wasn’t clear from my response to your previous post ) that I really am enjoying this little give and take that we have going (it’s what these forums are for after all!) and I admire the thoughtfulness and CHARITY that you bring to the conversations. Thank you!!

I’ll be gettin’ back to you… God bless!

 

[Moneo]

Two extremely good and in depth books you can get that will help you understand how mohomedism progressed and works, are “The Crusades” and “The Great Heresies” both by Hilaire Belloc.

I’ve just bought a copy of The Crusades and am looking forward to it very much! Thanks for the tip on the other book too!

 

[gam197]

Many believe that their violent history was due to the Catholic/Protestant controversies. That is sadly untrue, but nevertheless, the impression of many.

If the students of the world get taught protestant history which condemns the monarchs, the crusades, the inquisitions and house arrest of Galelio, it is pretty tough to come out of any school and feel good about being catholic. This constant attack on catholic history has helped the liberal cause tremendously.

Even during the Protestant British attack on Ireland, papers were handed out with protestant propaganda showing catholics do barbaric things.

originally posted by El Paula
I want appeal to a sense of balance and to give a response to this issue that I believe is measured and reasonable - because it affects the lives of many people in our countries (though I speak with particular knowledge of the English experience).

A 27 year old relative just came over from England she told me they are having problems in England with the muslims. She had not heard of the problems in France which stunned me but she thought that the reason she had not heard this news was due to the language barriers which make communication more difficult throughout Europe.

 

[gam197]

oringinally posted by leonie
Did it start with the enlightenment? Or, the French revolution? Or was it as late as the world wars?

When did Europe begin to lose its faith? What was the trigger?

It stated with Erasmus and Martin Luther but the French revolution was a major event. Catholic Spain was fighting to hold and it did but Catholic France fell to the liberals. Yet it was taught by the protestants that this was a great thing when in fact, it was a terrible thing. The French liberals killed off thousands of nuns, priests, and bishops. I am sure this affected the Russian Czar’s fall.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

See

FRANCE IS NO LONGER CATHOLIC,

The survey showed a steep decline in the number of French people identifying themselves as Catholics: from 80% just 15 years ago to just over one-half-- 51%-- today. Over the same period the number of professed atheists rose from 23 to 31%.

 

[leonie]

It stated with Erasmus and Martin Luther but the French revolution was a major event. Catholic Spain was fighting to hold and it did but Catholic France fell to the liberals. Yet it was taught by the protestants that this was a great thing when in fact, it was a terrible thing. The French liberals killed off thousands of nuns, priests, and bishops. I am sure this affected the Russian Czar’s fall.

France has given us so many great saints. so sad

 

[Image_of_God]

France has given us so many great saints. so sad

St. Louis IX
St. Martin of Tours
St. Gregory of Tours
St. John Vianney
St. Therese of Liseux

I know it is sad…they are some of the most popular.

 

[Moneo]

France has given us so many great saints. so sad

Let’s not just be sad, let’s pray! In fact let’s pray to the saints that gam197 mentioned: St. Louis IX, St. Martin of Tours, St. Gregory of Tours, St. John Vianney, and St. Therese of Liseux … and let’s throw some in to St. Vincent de Paul, St. Louise de Merrilác, St. Bernadette Soubirous, St. Catherine Labouré and St. Bernard of Clairvaux while we’re at it too.

But, echoing the question that El Paulo asked above, is praying enough? Yes, we all like to make cracks about the French (a few have appeared, or at least very nearly appeared, on this very thread…) but do we genuinely care about what is happening to them? Perhaps it’s not up to these saints to act; perhaps it’s our time to act. They lived their lives and did what God asked of them. What is God asking of us?

You know, it’s easy for us to lament the loss of the Faith in France, England, Spain and the rest of Europe, but what are we going to do about it? The cathedrals, the ancient monasteries, the shrines … they’re beatuiful, romantic, breathtaking and picturesque. And they’re fast becoming Greek and Roman temples … empty shells bearing witness to former glories and a dead faith. If there is still faith in the U.S., if Americans are still more religiously active on average than the Europeans, it wouldn’t be had the seed not been planted by them in the soil of the American continents first.

Could it be time to re-pay the debt?

Others are busy doing *their *work here people … Saudi Arabia is investing hundreds of millions of euros for the construction of mosques and Islamic schools and the propagation of the Islamic religion in Europe. The Mormons are sending missionaries here. Not a day goes by that I don’t see them here. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are knocking on the doors of my neighbours every week. Part of the reason for this is that they’re minorities, but they are motivated and active. We are complacent. What kind of testimony to the Truth of Christ is that?

(If you’re reading, El Paulo, this isn’t much of an answer … but perhaps it’s the beginning of one! I’m going to keep thinking it through, including out loud here on this thread. There’s somewhere I’m trying to get, but I still haven’t connected all of the dots. Stay tuned … )

 

[Image_of_God]

Let’s not just be sad, let’s pray! In fact let’s pray to the saints that gam197 mentioned: St. Louis IX, St. Martin of Tours, St. Gregory of Tours, St. John Vianney, and St. Therese of Liseux … and let’s throw some in to St. Vincent de Paul, St. Louise de Merrilác, St. Bernadette Soubirous, St. Catherine Labouré and St. Bernard of Clairvaux while we’re at it too.

But, echoing the question that El Paulo asked above, is praying enough? Yes, we all like to make cracks about the French (a few have appeared, or at least very nearly appeared, on this very thread…) but do we genuinely care about what is happening to them? Perhaps it’s not up to these saints to act; perhaps it’s our time to act. They lived their lives and did what God asked of them. What is God asking of us?

You know, it’s easy for us to lament the loss of the Faith in France, England, Spain and the rest of Europe, but what are we going to do about it? The cathedrals, the ancient monasteries, the shrines … they’re beatuiful, romantic, breathtaking and picturesque. And they’re fast becoming Greek and Roman temples … empty shells bearing witness to former glories and a dead faith. If there is still faith in the U.S., if Americans are still more religiously active on average than the Europeans, it wouldn’t be had the seed not been planted by them in the soil of the American continents first.

Could it be time to re-pay the debt?

Others are busy doing *their *work here people … Saudi Arabia is investing hundreds of millions of euros for the construction of mosques and Islamic schools and the propagation of the Islamic religion in Europe. The Mormons are sending missionaries here. Not a day goes by that I don’t see them here. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are knocking on the doors of my neighbours every week. Part of the reason for this is that they’re minorities, but they are motivated and active. We are complacent. What kind of testimony to the Truth of Christ is that?

(If you’re reading, El Paulo, this isn’t much of an answer … but perhaps it’s the beginning of one! I’m going to keep thinking it through, including out loud here on this thread. There’s somewhere I’m trying to get, but I still haven’t connected all of the dots. Stay tuned … )

Don’t forget St. Joan of Arc!

…and St. Louis de Monfort.

 

[JWilson]

I’m hearing some sadness and regret that Europe is supposedly going to be mostly Muslam in 30 years?Are we taught to give up and walk away?NO!!!Pray that their hearts will be open to Christian teaching and accept Jesus as their savior.Let’s not give up the fight now because it’s not going to get easier as Jesus’ return nears.An interesting report I heard the other day said that more christians are being killed today then ever before in history.Persecution of christians will only get worse as time moves on and we must be strong in the Lord to defend the faith.Prayer is very powerful.Let’s not forget to use it!

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m hearing some sadness and regret that Europe is supposedly going to be mostly Muslam in 30 years?Are we taught to give up and walk away?NO!!!Pray that their hearts will be open to Christian teaching and accept Jesus as their savior.Let’s not give up the fight now because it’s not going to get easier as Jesus’ return nears.An interesting report I heard the other day said that more christians are being killed today then ever before in history.Persecution of christians will only get worse as time moves on and we must be strong in the Lord to defend the faith.Prayer is very powerful.Let’s not forget to use it!

We should have all Christian Leaders, Pope, Patriarchs, Protestant Ministers do a Eucharistic Adoration for the Conversion of Europe if it becomes part of Islam.

If it happens, the Western Hemisphere, N. America, C. America, and S. America will the only Christian countries left… wait… We also have Christians in Africa and Asia…too…

 

[El_Paulo]

(If you’re reading, El Paulo, this isn’t much of an answer … but perhaps it’s the beginning of one! I’m going to keep thinking it through, including out loud here on this thread. There’s somewhere I’m trying to get, but I still haven’t connected all of the dots. Stay tuned …

Many thanks for your reply Moneo - sorry it’s taken some time for me to get back to you.

All the posts on this thread have kept sending me back to think about this issue all over again - if I think I’ve made up my mind, something else comes to destabilise my equalibrium. What I do know, as many have said, is that prayer is the key to this. For me it’s praying for the courage to discuss, to listen, to learn, to think, to hope, to befriend (even in the face of great danger and threats) and to minster (physically and spiritually).

Islam has it’s problems, but in some parts Europe there is a ‘different’ Islam which Christians are dialoguing with - and it fills me with such joy. I am telling you this so that you can pray for an event happening in Birmingham (below). It doesn’t matter if you can’t read it all, but you get the feel of it!!

Blessings and peace.