Is Catholicism "legalized magic"?

[Bohm_Bawerk]

As silly as it may sound, is Catholicism really “legalized magic”? I was looking across the internet yesterday for some good novenas, and I stumbled on this site titled “Christian Magic”. At first, I thought it was an oxymoron, but now I’m not so sure. The argument it presents at first is a little bit convincing:

Almost from the beginning of Christianity, its followers have belived in and used certain ritual practices to obtain help in their times of need. Prayers alone are often used and they sometimes obtain the desired result. There are many other instances, however, (even mentioned in the Bible) when a specific procedure (ie.magic) must be used to achieve one’s objective.

We have only to recall Moses using a certain act to produce a serpent from his staff or water from stone, Joshua had his men engage in precise activities days before the felling of Jericho’s walls and Jesus gave specific instructions to the blind man to return his sight. Christianity has also held that there exists a communion, or community, of saints who, though deceased, can intercede for those still in the flesh.

Now I’m not an expert on Catholicism, having only come back to the faith a few months ago. That said, is Catholicism really “legalized magic”? What actually distinguishes the true religion from the other forms of spells and whatnot that exist. I really hope that Catholicism has nothing to do with magic. This is a bit worrying. I did not read the entire webpage, only the introduction, lest it lead me into believing incorrect things.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[MtnDwellar]

Most Christians will deny that their beliefs incorporate any use of magic. The connotations associated with the term magic involve spells, charms, or incantations to summon one’s own internal powers or to invoke preternatural powers to achieve a desired result.

If we use a general definition of magic: The use of supernatural means to influence natural events, then Christians use magic. One difference between Christians and those who practice other magic is that the Christian will accept the results of his efforts whether they are the desired results or not. They will put God’s will in front of their own. Others who practice magic try to inflict their own will on earth.

 

[jazzbaby1]

I’m going to respectfully disagree with you here, MtnDwellar. Jesus was not a magician, He was God. The essential question here is how we view prayer or fellowship with the Almighty. It is obvious to me that continuing fellowship with Him was His intent for us and with the Fall that was broken. Prayer is His invitation to us to approach Him and to join our small broken love to His big beautiful whole LOVE in care for our fellow creatures. A novena, for example, is a discipline, not an incantation. I do agree with you that “magic” puts our concerns before His but I think that there is no “magic” in approaching Him in the way He has instructed us.

 

[Petergee]

In a nutshell, Catholicism is true and “magic” is false.

A “magician” invents spells etc to try to contact supernatural powers and use them to achieve his ends.

The examples from the Bible quoted are where the israelites did what GOD commanded them to do in order to be obedient to Him. Just as Catholics in obedience to God’s directive celebrate the Mass. Catholic rituals don’t cause anything miraculaous or supernatural to happen. God does that,

And the term “legalised magic” is nonsense. There are no laws in western countries against any type of “magic”.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

And the term “legalised magic” is nonsense. There are no laws in western countries against any type of “magic”.

I never meant “legalized” in the strictest and literal sense of the term. You could say it’s somewhat hyperbolic to use the word “legalized”, but what I meant essentially was that it’s accepted both theologically, socially and culturally. I think (or at least thought) readers would have got the gist of what I meant by “legalized”.

Thank you,
**Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk **

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Most Christians will deny that their beliefs incorporate any use of magic. The connotations associated with the term magic involve spells, charms, or incantations to summon one’s own internal powers or to invoke preternatural powers to achieve a desired result.

If we use a general definition of magic: The use of supernatural means to influence natural events, then Christians use magic. One difference between Christians and those who practice other magic is that the Christian will accept the results of his efforts whether they are the desired results or not. They will put God’s will in front of their own. Others who practice magic try to inflict their own will on earth.

I understand what you’re saying completely. But now this is the part where I get very confused:

They will put God’s will in front of their own. Others who practice magic try to inflict their own will on earth.

However, when people use magic, they are attempting to contact supernatural forces to, as you say, “inflict their own will on earth”. However, we also know that God is the supreme being of everything that has existed, is existing and will exist. If people can contact supernatural forces to inflict their own will on earth, doesn’t that mean that God Himself is permitting this? And if He is permitting this, what exactly then is meant by “God’s will”? What is “God’s will” if people can use magic to get whatever they want under God’s very own eyes?

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[puzzleannie]

Now I’m not an expert on Catholicism, having only come back to the faith a few months ago. T

this advice is for you and all new Catholics, and all Catholics who are not yet firmly grounded in the faith and still learning.
Stay away from non Catholic books, shows, TV networks, preachers, churches, and especially websites. they will bring no guidance, no spiritual benefit and no knowledge, only confusion and doubts and uneasiness.

What did you learn about the Eucharist when you prepared for reception into the Church? That is the truth. If you only recently became Catholic you should still be in some formal mystagogy, that is, deeper study of what happened and why it happened. Call the person or pastor who prepared you and ask these questions. Now.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

this advice is for you and all new Catholics, and all Catholics who are not yet firmly grounded in the faith and still learning.
Stay away from non Catholic books, shows, TV networks, preachers, churches, and especially websites. they will bring no guidance, no spiritual benefit and no knowledge, only confusion and doubts and uneasiness.

What did you learn about the Eucharist when you prepared for reception into the Church? That is the truth. If you only recently became Catholic you should still be in some formal mystagogy, that is, deeper study of what happened and why it happened. Call the person or pastor who prepared you and ask these questions. Now.

No, I was raised Catholic, but I was Agnostic for a while. . .thanks for the advice however

By “not being an expert”, I do mean just that. If you were to ask me, say, to give a full historical account of the Great Schism, or to answer a philosophical question such as why God allows Satan to exist, then I would probably look at you dumbfounded. I’m currently trying to expand my knowledge on Catholicism, indeed of Christianity as a whole. But you would have to have a very optimistic outlook of Catholics as a whole if you think that a great deal are experts. I just know the bare basics right now. Everyone starts from somewhere

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[EmeraldWings]

As silly as it may sound, is Catholicism really “legalized magic”? I was looking across the internet yesterday for some good novenas, and I stumbled on this site titled “Christian Magic”. At first, I thought it was an oxymoron, but now I’m not so sure. The argument it presents at first is a little bit convincing:

Now I’m not an expert on Catholicism, having only come back to the faith a few months ago. That said, is Catholicism really “legalized magic”? What actually distinguishes the true religion from the other forms of spells and whatnot that exist. I really hope that Catholicism has nothing to do with magic. This is a bit worrying. I did not read the entire webpage, only the introduction, lest it lead me into believing incorrect things.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

Don’t worry, it’s not in any way shape or form “magic”, magic is something which is “believed” to have to do with people being able to control nature by their own means or by “spirits” which are all around us, but it never tries to give credit to God or claim God as the source,
in reality, those who “practice” magic and actually see results, are simply being manipulated by the devil,

we must remember, that no human has the power of himself alone to control anything, God alone has power, and it is God who controls whatever happens through us, such as Padre Pio who was known for many miracles,

when certain people, such as Moses, or Jesus Himself, preformed certain miracles or cured people by some physical gesture, that was simply a sign, and not something which of itself had any power,
because we are physical creatures, and we have no control of the spiritual or even the ability to see it, so then we have no way of knowing what is going on or how to do anything that effects the spiritual, *except *in the manner that God has told us,
it is a matter of trust in God, because we are physical, God has told us that by certain gestures, words, or procedures that we will accomplish or bring about certain things, not of our own power, but by Gods power, which we cannot see.
it is a means to “see” what we are doing, and to be sure that it will happen, simply by our trust and obedience to God.

and these things, unlike “magic”, are not manipulated in any way by us, they are not things we can “harness” or control, we can only execute or carry out these procedures in the way we have been commanded,

if you want to learn these things and truly understand them, seek your information from the church and from God, pray for the virtues of wisdom and knowledge, and put your trust in God,
something is called “magic” when it comes about through human or natural means, but we as Catholics believe that all miracles come from God, and no one else, and that we cannot control or manipulate anything, so by its very definition and meaning and what it is understood as, magic is most certainly not used in our faith.

ok, if you have any other questions i’d be glad to help.
take care.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Don’t worry, it’s not in any way shape or form “magic”, magic is something which is “believed” to have to do with people being able to control nature by their own means or by “spirits” which are all around us, but it never tries to give credit to God or claim God as the source,
in reality, those who “practice” magic and actually see results, are simply being manipulated by the devil,

we must remember, that no human has the power of himself alone to control anything, God alone has power, and it is God who controls whatever happens through us, such as Padre Pio who was known for many miracles,

when certain people, such as Moses, or Jesus Himself, preformed certain miracles or cured people by some physical gesture, that was simply a sign, and not something which of itself had any power,
because we are physical creatures, and we have no control of the spiritual or even the ability to see it, so then we have no way of knowing what is going on or how to do anything that effects the spiritual, *except *in the manner that God has told us,
it is a matter of trust in God, because we are physical, God has told us that by certain gestures, words, or procedures that we will accomplish or bring about certain things, not of our own power, but by Gods power, which we cannot see.
it is a means to “see” what we are doing, and to be sure that it will happen, simply by our trust and obedience to God.

and these things, unlike “magic”, are not manipulated in any way by us, they are not things we can “harness” or control, we can only execute or carry out these procedures in the way we have been commanded,

if you want to learn these things and truly understand them, seek your information from the church and from God, pray for the virtues of wisdom and knowledge, and put your trust in God,
something is called “magic” when it comes about through human or natural means, but we as Catholics believe that all miracles come from God, and no one else, and that we cannot control or manipulate anything, so by its very definition and meaning and what it is understood as, magic is most certainly not used in our faith.

ok, if you have any other questions i’d be glad to help.
take care.

This pretty much refuted the site’s claim. Thanks for your reassurance

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[MtnDwellar]

I’m going to respectfully disagree with you here, MtnDwellar. Jesus was not a magician, He was God. The essential question here is how we view prayer or fellowship with the Almighty. It is obvious to me that continuing fellowship with Him was His intent for us and with the Fall that was broken. Prayer is His invitation to us to approach Him and to join our small broken love to His big beautiful whole LOVE in care for our fellow creatures. A novena, for example, is a discipline, not an incantation. I do agree with you that “magic” puts our concerns before His but I think that there is no “magic” in approaching Him in the way He has instructed us.

Of course you disagree with me. You are using a different definition of the term magic than I used. Many words have different definitions. As I stated, if we define magic as “The use of supernatural means to influence natural events”, then Christ was a magician.

 

[MtnDwellar]

I understand what you’re saying completely. But now this is the part where I get very confused:

However, when people use magic, they are attempting to contact supernatural forces to, as you say, “inflict their own will on earth”. However, we also know that God is the supreme being of everything that has existed, is existing and will exist. If people can contact supernatural forces to inflict their own will on earth, doesn’t that mean that God Himself is permitting this? And if He is permitting this, what exactly then is meant by “God’s will”? What is “God’s will” if people can use magic to get whatever they want under God’s very own eyes?

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

Nothing happens without the power of God. The difference between Christians and others is what they will “accept” as the result of their efforts. A Christian knows that the results of his prayers may not be what he expected or wanted. We have faith that all things happen for a reason and that there is a divine plan by which, if followed, will lead us to a greater good.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Nothing happens without the power of God. The difference between Christians and others is what they will “accept” as the result of their efforts. A Christian knows that the results of his prayers may not be what he expected or wanted. We have faith that all things happen for a reason and that there is a divine plan by which, if followed, will lead us to a greater good.

I see

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[Petergee]

I never meant “legalized” in the strictest and literal sense of the term. You could say it’s somewhat hyperbolic to use the word “legalized”, but what I meant essentially was that it’s accepted both theologically, socially and culturally.

So is magic.

I think (or at least thought) readers would have got the gist of what I meant by “legalized”.

If you invent a new meaning for a word which is different from its very clear and well-known meaning, you can’t expect others to read your mind.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

So is magic. If you invent a new meaning for a word which is different from its very clear and well-known meaning, you can’t expect others to read your mind.

I never invented a new meaning for the word “legalized”. It’s called hyperbole.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[Petergee]

I never invented a new meaning for the word “legalized”. It’s called hyperbole.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

Now you’ve inventede a new meaning for hyperbole.
Hyperbole is exaggeration of a word’s meaning for effect.
“legalised” is not an exaggeration of “accepted theologically, socially and culturally”. They are two quite different concepts, they don’t mean something larger nor smaller than each other.

Many things have long been legal which are not accepted theologically, socially and culturally. And many things have long been illegal but are accepted theologically, socially and culturally.