Is Catholicism too complex?

[goodcatholic]

What’s often not made explicit—and perhaps often not even realized by those who promote it—is that “personal relationship” theology portrays Jesus primarily as a friend. After all, one doesn’t usually have a personal relationship with a king or a ruler, or even with a teacher. We most commonly have personal relationships with equals.

How about just “relationship” then?

 

[goodcatholic]

At this point, “good works” needs to be defined. The way you have the sentence worded, “good works” is not probable without faith.

-visiting the sick in Hospital
-helping at a homeless soup Kitchen
-helping the aged in their homes
(need I continue?)
You don’t have to have faith to do these things? Non Christians can do them. So if non-Christians do them, they aren’t called good works?

 

[anon65111186]

How about just “relationship” then?

Sure but even then how do you determine whether we have a relationship with Jesus? By what criteria do you evaluate that a relationship is there or not?

Just curious about your answer.

 

[goodcatholic]

Sounds like a Zen Koan which I’m going to skip and let you answer your own question.
Simple catholics need simple faith. Follow Jesus. Follow the Gospels. Work on your relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don’t have a relationship with Jesus Christ through prayer, how can you call yourself a Catholic/ Christian? By just attending Mass?

 

[anon65111186]

Sounds like a Zen Koan which I’m going to skip and let you answer your own question.

Simple catholics need simple faith. Follow Jesus. Follow the Gospels. Work on your relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don’t have a relationship with Jesus Christ through prayer, how can you call yourself a Catholic/ Christian? By just attending Mass?

No offense but what is with people on CAF today? Nobody knows how to give a straight answer to straight forward questions anymore.

If you can’t define relationship then how can you know if you have one or not?

You mentioned prayer, is that all that is necessary?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

You don’t have to have faith to do these things? Non Christians can do them. So if non-Christians do them, they aren’t called good works?

I think it depends why a person is doing those good works. If they are doing them for their own prestige or because someone else is looking, then that don’t count as what St. Paul meant when he said “faith without works”.

This is where faith comes into play. A Christian is supposed to believe that God wants us to do these things for our love of God and neighbor. A nonChristian has had the benefit of 2K years of Christian influences on civilization that has made this virtue of charity known to them even though they aren’t Christian - and that is where the historical context of the New Testament comes into play. Two thousand years ago, that Christian influence had not saturated the civilized world yet, so it was necessary to say that faith without works is a dead faith. That still applies today. However, people can do “works without faith”, and that fact is just taken more for granted today.

It’s not that it’s not possible to do good works without faith, it was just not as common back then as it is today. Jesus makes it known that whoever does the will of God is his family. If someone knows the will of God without knowing the Abrahamic God, then fine. But how likely was that to be 2K years ago? It’s much more likely today because there has been 2K years of Christian influence.

 

[Shakuhachi]

I think through the centuries we came up with some answer for everything and left no room for mystery. The complexity is in accepting those answers as “teaching”.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Sure but even then how do you determine whether we have a relationship with Jesus? By what criteria do you evaluate that a relationship is there or not?

Love

“Love one another as I have loved you. This is how people will know you are my disciple.”

Simple yet so difficult. Start with loving our enemies.

 

[Bon_Croix]

I agree, but would add:

It is simple if its practice in its entirety is handed down from generation to generation.

 

[Kts1816]

Yes,I agree with this.
As for Catholicism too complex I dont see it this way.
Orthodoxy seems more complex to me,Protestantism too simple

 

[RKS89]

I’d have to disagree there. Christ elevates the disciples to “friends” in John 15. And I’d have to think that spending basically all day, every day with Jesus for 3 years would have made those men friends. Furthermore, what’s more personal than receiving His body and blood each week at Mass? While the personal relationship stuff can be a bit diluted theologically I hardly think it’s outside of Scripture, much less Christ’s intentions. Were He only to remain Lord, Master etc, I don’t know that He would have eaten with the sinners or spoken to the woman at the well. Of all men born, none would be as personable as Jesus of Nazareth. In His ministry Christ evangelizes on a relational level as well as preaching to large crowds. How can we, as His followers, attempt to evangelize someone if we have no relationship with them? That doesn’t seem to fit the Biblical model and seems to trivialize the Incarnation and His earthly ministry.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Christ elevates the disciples to “friends” in John 15

And he so often referred to himself as “Son of Man”. An interesting title with layers of meaning.

 

[HeDa]

Catholicism has had almost 2000 years to think while the oldest protestants have 500 years. A church started 10 years ago hasn’t had time yet to develop their theology without looking into other churches. That means that the Catholic Church has had time to go deeper and really dig deep into the faith. That doesn’t mean that everyone should read the complex documents but grow in the pace that they can.

In 1992, I had enough programming skills to be able to completely delete the hard disk on a computer. Today I don’t, even though I can use a computer for a lot more work than I could in the 1990s. Gone are the days when it took 5 minutes before the computer was connected to the internet…

 

[Bon_Croix]

No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[anon65111186]

’d have to disagree there. Christ elevates the disciples to “friends” in John 15. And I’d have to think that spending basically all day, every day with Jesus for 3 years would have made those men friends. Furthermore, what’s more personal than receiving His body and blood each week at Mass?

True, in John 15:14, Christ tells the apostles, “You are my friends if you do what I command you” and says they are no longer servants but “friends.” And in Luke 12:4, he refers to the disciples as “my friends.” However, other than these few references, nowhere else is Jesus presented as a friend. That is telling.

How can we, as His followers, attempt to evangelize someone if we have no relationship with them?

There are plenty of times when Peter or Paul met people for the first time, with no previous relationship and they were baptized on the spot. The relationship was father to son, or father to daughter, as they called Peter and Paul “Father” and they called them sons, daughters, my dear children etc.

St. Paul does not present Jesus as a “friend” either. Then how does Paul portray Jesus? The answer provides a model for our own evangelization efforts today.

Let’s look at three Pauline passages: Colossians 1:12-20, Philippians 2:6-11, and Ephesians 1:3-10.

Col 1:

1. “firstborn of all creation,”
2. “the beginning,”
3. “head of the body, the Church.”
4. “the image of the invisible God.”
5. “In him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.” The Greek word for “fullness” [pleroma] signifies a completeness or perfection. In Christ we have the one, true God made flesh.

Phil:

1. “in the form of God,”
2. “Lord.” At his name “every knee should bow”

Paul doesn’t see Christ as an equal, or someone who is simply a friend. He sees—and preaches—a Christ who is above all things. We don’t simply have a “personal relationship” with him—we bend our knees to worship him.

Eph:

1. Redeemer
2. One who forgives our trespasses
3. The one in whom all things in heaven and earth are united to in the fullness of time
4. reconciler of the fallen universe.
5. reorderer of a disordered universe.

 

[Bon_Croix]

Are you referring to a water baptism or a fire baptism or both?

 

[anon65111186]

Are you referring to a water baptism or a fire baptism or both?

Water baptism.

 

[Curious11]

I’m not a Catholic but here’s my two cents:

If you’re a parent, I assume that when your children were small you told them many times: be a good boy/girl and don’t misbehave. That’s a pretty simple instruction, but when it’s time to put it into practice it gets complex. What do my parents mean by misbehaving? If a kid hits me in school can I fight back? Can I play innocent jokes on the teacher? Do I have to do my homework now or can I have dinner first?

So being a good child is about following a seemingly simple instruction from your parents, but applying it to every circumstance you encounter each day requires some reflection and becomes more complex.

Same thing with God. Jesus said: love God above all else, and your neighbor like yourself. But how do you apply it in each circumstance. How can you best love your neighbor? Do you sometimes adopt a tough love harsh truth attitude with your friends or should you be easygoing always? And of course, the real fight comes when you have to resist the temptation to commit a sin that you want to commit, normally because it brings pleasure of some kind.

So I think Catholicism isn’t that complex, but applying it to mortal and sinful beings makes it complex

 

[Le_Cracquere]

As he so often did, Chesterton had something useful to say on this subject. As he put it: yes, Catholicism can be a complex thing. But then again, LIFE is a complex thing. When we think about seemingly pointless, weird shapes, one thing that comes to mind is a key. The key pokes out where a more regular implement wouldn’t. It curves inward when it makes no sense. It’s full of ripples and bends that don’t seem called for. It’s downright impossible to justify the shape of a key … except in one single respect: it fits the lock.

And it seemed to Chesterton (and seems to me) that the odd complexity of Catholicism happens to fit the lock that is our equally odd-seeming and complex created, fallen nature. I mean no offense to the Protestant pastor you quote, who I’m sure is a decent, well-meaning fellow who loves God … but his quote strikes me as the rough equivalent of wielding an uncut blank key from the hardware store, and trusting that its simplicity will cause the tumbler pins to fall into place.

 

[Thingsnotseen]

Quick History:
I was a Protestant for the first 50 years of my life. I still have family that are either Pastors or in leadership positions. I have literally put several hundred hours ( 400 +/- ) or so into Catholicism since January 2017. My wife and I enter the Church at Easter Vigil. My wife and I are both far more Catholic now than Protestant and we love it.

I said that to help you understand my view on this.

Both my wife and I early on thought that Catholicism was too complex. Remember, we came from the alleged simple system you speak of. Catholicism was completely 100% new for us and being so different than protestantism it seemed too complex. However, I continued to study and learn about Catholicism and found that it is very Christ centered and my eyes have stayed on Christ through this journey.

I know from experience and many that I have seen around me that protestant “simple” isn’t really simple. Working on your relationship with God takes commitment, the reality of the committed Protestant, I’m talking about the truly faithful Protestant that has what sounds like a simple plan is that they go to Sunday School on Sunday morning, Sunday morning worship, serve in leadership roles or in other areas of the church, go to Wednesday night Bible study, do devotions with their families, have church gathering after gathering, read their Bibles often, go to additional men or women’s Bible studies in addition to the Wednesday night one. Faithful protestants also visit the sick, donate their time to charity, do prison ministries, etc. etc. etc. So you talk about a relationship with God, the faithful protestant is truly WORKING ON IT many, many, many hours per week.

Here’s what happens to many protestants: They slowly stop doing things things that I just mentioned and the next thing you know they haven’t attended church in a year or two or three. So simple is not so simple because it takes work to have a relationship with God even in a Protestant church.

Take it from someone who knows Protestantism, it sounds simple, but it’s no more challenging than living as a faithful Catholic. I prefer the Catholic life obviously because living Catholic for me ( remember I’m not fully there yet ) has drawn me as close or closer to Christ than I’ve ever been in my life.

Catholics like Protestants have to keep their priorities in line with their attention on Christ. The grass is not greener on the other side. I’m glad that I discovered the Catholic Church.