Is Catholicsm and Islam compatible?

[HarryStotle]

Your neighbor two houses to the left thinks that the President is a great military leader who wants to make everyone American by conquest. He believes the President is always right in everything he does, even when the citizens don’t understand or disagree. We must always submit to the President, he tells you. He relates to you a secret plan the President has to revoke the old constitution and replace it with a new one because, he says, the new one was corrupted by bureaucrats over the years.

According to your logic, there MUST be only one current President of the United States at this time, because although this neighbor says something very peculiar about him, and even despite that your other neighbors only repeat what are commonly held notions about him, this neighbor is telling you what he seems to have contrived or imagined about “the President,” but it’s still the same president, according to you, of whom he is speaking.

When you ask this neighbor where he got this unique information about the president, he tells you a secret messenger from the President, a supernatural being named Jabber woke him up in the middle of the night when he was alone in his tent out in the woods. He claims Jabber told him to write down the new constitution and to begin convincing everyone that it is the President’s plan. Your neighbor leans over to you and quietly admits he hasn’t gotten around to doing that yet, but will get some secretaries to do so when the time is right.

You ask him if he watches the news on TV or reads any newspapers. He responds that he does sometimes but because all the channels have been politically corrupted he only believes what Jabber told him to be true about the President. Oh, and he adds the President hates the idea of religious liberty because everyone ought to submit to him and his new constitution. He also confides that he loves the President’s purple hair and how the spikes give the President an aura of bravado and determination.

Since you insist that even if Christians and Moslems believe differently about God, there is still only one God, then the same applies to the POTUS being promoted by this neighbor. Even if all your neighbors believe different things about the POTUS, no matter how far-fetched, there still can only be one POTUS. That’s your logic. I’m following your line of reasoning.

So, does this guy believe in the same POTUS as everyone else?

Personally, I have a difficult time thinking that he does.

 

[HarryStotle]

Can we factor in the calvinists? A lot of folks say that they also don’t worship the same God because of their belief in double predestination.

WhadYathink?

Refer to my previous post.

Double predestination, in its straight-forward reading, verges on being outlandish and has implications about the nature of God that are unacceptable and incompatible with the God of the Bible.

 

[HarryStotle]

Would we end up with a ‘Mine is better than yours’ scenario and even more war and bloodshed in the name of religion? Or would the Church step down to save lives?

I suppose that if you think saving lives is more important than the truth of the matter, then it wouldn’t seem to matter what anybody believed provided they didn’t aggravate anyone else.

The problem with this is that perpetually aggravated persons and religions do exist.

Notice, I am not advocating taking any lives, but I am advocating seeking and speaking the truth no matter what the cost, no matter if someone will declare war against you and spill much blood because of it. The Truth is the Truth and we either stand with the Truth at all costs or we abdicate the Truth whenever someone gets aggravated at it in order to appease them and hope to prevent their acts of aggression.

 

[Benadam]

In a way. Anyone seeking the good of God even knowing little about Him is seeking the same God as Abraham. that to me doesn’t validate the claim.

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96:

By your logic, your answer is wrong.

My next door neighbor to the right thinks that the President is doing a great job. My next door neighbor to the left thinks the President is doing a bad job.

According to your logic, there MUST be at least 2 different Presidents of the United States at this time, …

Since you insist that if Christians and Moslems believe differently about God, there must be 2 Gods then the same applies to the POTUS. …
That’s your logic. I’m following your line of reasoning.

I am not convinced by your analogy. You begin with the presupposition that they are both referring to the same actual person, and so your point gets “proven.” Unfortunately, I can come up with a similar story where your point gets disproven.

But I have to do it in a second post…

That is because Abraham was the “same actual person”

 

[FrDavid96]

but I am advocating seeking and speaking the truth no matter what the cost,

Unfortunately, you are not.

You are not advocating any “truth” at all.

What you advocate is ignorance and hatred.

If you want to stand up for the truth, you must first learn what that truth is.

The fact that the God of Christians and Muslims is the one same God of Abraham had nothing to do with wars and blood and people getting aggravated.

Just because you don’t like Muslims (which you clearly don’t) does not give you any sort of moral high ground to take a fact and alter it for the convenience of your rhetoric.

You are more like the Muslim caricature you draw than you realize.

 

[2towers]

When you stop and think how closely related the Sunnis are to the Shiites, and even then, they hate and sometimes kill each other, I think the differences between us and them are substantial.

 

[FrDavid96]

In a way. Anyone seeking the good of God even knowing little about Him is seeking the same God as Abraham. that to me doesn’t validate the claim.

They aren’t just “seeking” they are the descendants of Abraham (whether by direct blood or not is materially irrelevant). They never stopped believing in God, they just gradually came to believe different things about the God of Abraham.

It is amazing to me how people fail to see such basic, common sense logic because they have blinded themselves by political motives.

 

[Benadam]

But the prophetic line from Abraham ended with John the Baptist not Muhammad. Muhammad introduced something entirely new and diffferent that didn’t come from Abraham.

 

[FrDavid96]

But the prophetic line from Abraham ended with John the Baptist not Muhammad. Muhammad introduced something entirely new and diffferent that didn’t come from Abraham.

Which does not change the simple fact that the God Himself did not change. He didn’t become 2 different Gods after John the Baptist.

If only you could realize just how silly it sounds when you make claims like this.

You obviously don’t “want” for Christians and Muslims to have the same God.

That doesn’t change the simple fact that we do.

The fact that we do have the same God does not create the problems that people seem to think it causes. Just because we disagree with Muslims on religion and our cultures certainly disagree and certainly clash, does not mean that God suddenly becomes 2 different Gods.

 

[HarryStotle]

That is because Abraham was the “same actual person”

It isn’t clear to me how Abraham enters into the analogy. I understood your reply to be about two monotheistic views of God (or the President in your analogy.)

 

[Benadam]

Then anyone who believes in one God can claim to believe in the God of Abraham. I wonder if this is true of those who believe the one God ascended to godhood as a created being? Kinda removes substance to the meaning of the Belief Abraham handed down imo.

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96:

That is because Abraham was the “same actual person”

It isn’t clear to me how Abraham enters into the analogy. I understood your reply to be about two monotheistic views of God (or the President in your analogy.)

No, not “views”

Abraham was one person and the God of Abraham is one God, just as the POTUS is one person (at a time).

Just because 2 people have 2 different views of that one person, does not mean that the person becomes more than one person.

The claim that God becomes 2 or more Gods (or God and god) because different people say different things about Him is rather childish form of reasoning.

 

[FrDavid96]

Then anyone who believes in one God can claim to believe in the God of Abraham. …

No. That’s not what I’m saying at all.

What amazes me is how people who try to “prove” that Islam and Christianity have 2 different Gods really end up proving nothing more than the fact that they themselves are incapable of simple reasoned thinking.

It really does amaze me.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

but I am advocating seeking and speaking the truth no matter what the cost,

Unfortunately, you are not.

You are not advocating any “truth” at all.

What you advocate is ignorance and hatred.

Actually what I am advocating is an honest assessment of the differences between Christianity and Islam. The word “ignorance” implies a willful state of oblivion with regard to those differences. My analogy was an attempt to clarify those differences, just as your analogy appeared to be an attempt to do likewise.

Your reply to me now seems that you have no answer and so you are resorting to ad hominems. That is an option you can take, if you wish, but it appears counterproductive if understanding in the sense of trying to clear up the issue is your real goal.

If you want to stand up for the truth, you must first learn what that truth is.

Again, that is what I was trying to do, but you seem to be abdicating your role if you are representing yourself to be doing some instructing on the issue.

The fact that the God of Christians and Muslims is the one same God of Abraham had nothing to do with wars and blood and people getting aggravated.

Christians being crucified, beheaded and threatened with extinction in the Middle East seems to argue against the “nothing to do with” position you are advocating.

Just because you don’t like Muslims (which you clearly don’t) does not give you any sort of moral high ground to take a fact and alter it for the convenience of your rhetoric.

Actually, you are failing here to distinguish between Muslims as individuals who happen to believe certain things (for whom I harbour no a priori ill-will, depending upon what they actually do believe and how they act) and the teachings of Islam (which I do have deep, in principle, concerns about.)

Note also, I have not personally attacked you, nor any Muslims, but have merely pointed out issues with certain beliefs which do not comport with reality, yet you have taken the option of attacking me personally as if you know who I am and what are my beliefs better than I do. I won’t do the same in response, other than to merely observe which of us has wandered down that trail.

You are more like the Muslim caricature you draw than you realize.

Well, here is your opportunity to instruct and inform. What exactly is the “Muslim caricature” that I draw and how do I resemble it?

 

[FrDavid96]

Well, here is your opportunity to instruct and inform. What exactly is the “Muslim caricature” that I draw and how do I resemble it?

What you do not understand is that the question of whether or not we have the same God is an objective one. It would not change if Muslims had a long history of peace and justice. How they act has nothing to do with it.

It is a fact, that doesn’t depend on opinions.

Whether you happen to like it or not, whether it’s convenient or not, we do worship the same God, the God of Abraham.

 

[FrDavid96]

I’ve been down this road many times before.

I know the futility of trying to explain a simple fact to people who refuse to believe it because they find it inconvenient for them.

I won’t waste any more time on this thread.

 

[Benadam]

The reasoning isn’t difficult I just don’t agree. I think my posts show I am able to understand what you mean.

 

[HarryStotle]

The claim that God becomes 2 or more Gods (or God and god) because different people say different things about Him is rather childish form of reasoning.

The locus of the question isn’t whether more than one God actually exists, just as no one would deny that in both our analogies only one President actually exists. That isn’t the issue.

The question is whether both Islam and Christianity properly conceive of and by implication actually worship the same God, just as whether all of your neighbors properly conceive of and respect (or not) the same President.

Thus my example was to show that your neighbor analogy might demonstrate an accurate awareness by some of your neighbors who have a fairly realistic view about the person filling the office of President. They may play up some aspects they like and play down other aspects to justify their liking or disliking of the person who fills that role. It is in how they align the likes and dislikes that determine their approval or disapproval of the person who happens to now be the President. The facts are generally agreed upon by anyone with a proper understanding of the office of the President and who it is that currently fills that role, although their tastes or judgements might differ.

The neighbor in my example seems to have a somewhat accurate understanding of the office of president, but has completely misconstrued the aims and goals of the person holding that office. In that sense, this neighbor does not recognize the same person who is president, at least, nothing like in the same way that your other neighbors do. His “President” is clearly not the same President recognized by the others, even though the “office” being referred to is the same, and even though he uses the same name to refer to the person holding that office. His “facts” are wildly at discord with reality.

Please note, that just as the office of President can be separated from the person holding that role and, therefore, different neighbors may alter their opinions of the holder of that office, even as they retain a common view of what the executive powers of that office involve.

Something like the distinction between person and office that can be made with respect to the President, can also be made with respect to the “office” of God (defined by his 3-Omni traits) and the Person(s) of God. This adds another dimension to your analogy, does it not?

I mean if some of your neighbors have certain feelings about the “office” of President and a completely other set of feelings about the person holding that office, that would be one thing. However, suppose some of your neighbors thought there was only one person holding that office, while others thought there were three persons holding that office. Would you not agree that such a disagreement necessarily entails that holders of these differing views are not showing a fundamental agreement about what or who the President really represents.

Continued…

 

[HarryStotle]

Ergo, if we separate out the “office” of God and the “Person(s)” holding that office, you would have to admit, would you not, that Christians and Muslims do not agree about the nature of the Godhead at a very fundamental level? They could not be said to recognize, respect or worship the same God because of those fundamentally discordant views – remembering that, in reality, the “office” of God and the Person(s) holding that office are indistinguishable from each other.