F
- Status
H
HarryStotle
Guest
I’ll give you a different scenario.
On your morning walk you come across a little girl with a brown and black shepherd-border collie cross. The male dog walks at the girl’s heel, is docile, friendly and under her complete control. You pet the dog who licks your hand and rolls over to show its belly. You ask the little girl her dog’s name and she says his name is Yesh.
A little later in the morning you see what appears to be the same dog but this time on a leash held by a young lady. She is obviously having serious difficulty controlling the dog. The dog growls and barks at everyone who passes by. As you draw near in your attempt to see if the dog is actually the same as the one you saw earlier in the morning, the dog starts to snarl and the lady says “I wouldn’t come any closer if I were you!” You ask the dog’s name and she says his name is Al.
The two animals, both known as “dogs” look identical. The first was called Yesh by the little girl walking him, the second was called Al. Could they be the same dog? Perhaps. Could they, on the basis of how the dogs behave, be two different dogs even though they superficially appear to be the same? Is it legitimate to ask if the two dogs are the same dog or different dogs? I don’t see why not. I don’t understand why anyone would say I am foolish or naive or worse just for wondering, based upon how the two dogs behave, if the dogs are actually the same dog.
I thought the question at hand was whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God. There are some things the two Gods appear to have in common – omniscience, omnipotence, immateriality, eternality, etc. These traits could have been arrived at independently by purely natural philosophical thought, as was pointed out earlier in this thread. This would be akin to what you notice about the two dogs - same coloration, both male, both same breed, etc. You, and anyone else, could arrive at those descriptives by purely “natural” and from-a-distance observation without personally encountering either dog. Once you encounter each dog, they “reveal” themselves to you, akin to what the two Gods ostensibly reveal about themselves to each group of believers – Muslim and Christian.
Now after the two dogs reveal themselves to you – Yesh, in the morning, friendly and behaved; Al, later in the morning, aggressive and dangerous – you could legitimately wonder if they are different.
Despite both being dogs of the same breed and looking identical, you would have grave doubts that the two dogs are actually the same dog. Or, maybe you don’t, I don’t know. I do know, however, that I would doubt they are the same dog and have good reasons for thinking they are not.
Based solely upon what the two religions reveal about their God (not their dog,) I have grave doubts that the same God is being referred to by both religions, just as I would have grave doubts that the two dogs are the same dog despite some similarities.
Now you can keep asking two different questions and insist that they mean two different things, but those two questions have little relevance to the question at hand.
On your morning walk you come across a little girl with a brown and black shepherd-border collie cross. The male dog walks at the girl’s heel, is docile, friendly and under her complete control. You pet the dog who licks your hand and rolls over to show its belly. You ask the little girl her dog’s name and she says his name is Yesh.
A little later in the morning you see what appears to be the same dog but this time on a leash held by a young lady. She is obviously having serious difficulty controlling the dog. The dog growls and barks at everyone who passes by. As you draw near in your attempt to see if the dog is actually the same as the one you saw earlier in the morning, the dog starts to snarl and the lady says “I wouldn’t come any closer if I were you!” You ask the dog’s name and she says his name is Al.
The two animals, both known as “dogs” look identical. The first was called Yesh by the little girl walking him, the second was called Al. Could they be the same dog? Perhaps. Could they, on the basis of how the dogs behave, be two different dogs even though they superficially appear to be the same? Is it legitimate to ask if the two dogs are the same dog or different dogs? I don’t see why not. I don’t understand why anyone would say I am foolish or naive or worse just for wondering, based upon how the two dogs behave, if the dogs are actually the same dog.
I thought the question at hand was whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God. There are some things the two Gods appear to have in common – omniscience, omnipotence, immateriality, eternality, etc. These traits could have been arrived at independently by purely natural philosophical thought, as was pointed out earlier in this thread. This would be akin to what you notice about the two dogs - same coloration, both male, both same breed, etc. You, and anyone else, could arrive at those descriptives by purely “natural” and from-a-distance observation without personally encountering either dog. Once you encounter each dog, they “reveal” themselves to you, akin to what the two Gods ostensibly reveal about themselves to each group of believers – Muslim and Christian.
Now after the two dogs reveal themselves to you – Yesh, in the morning, friendly and behaved; Al, later in the morning, aggressive and dangerous – you could legitimately wonder if they are different.
Despite both being dogs of the same breed and looking identical, you would have grave doubts that the two dogs are actually the same dog. Or, maybe you don’t, I don’t know. I do know, however, that I would doubt they are the same dog and have good reasons for thinking they are not.
Based solely upon what the two religions reveal about their God (not their dog,) I have grave doubts that the same God is being referred to by both religions, just as I would have grave doubts that the two dogs are the same dog despite some similarities.
Now you can keep asking two different questions and insist that they mean two different things, but those two questions have little relevance to the question at hand.
Last edited:
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Since you didn’t answer me the first time, I need to ask again.
Let me give you a scenario.
I visit my friend. My friend has a dog. 5 years later, I visit that same friend. My friend’s dog walks over to his food dish, picks it up and drops it in front of my friend.
I ask 2 questions.
Is that the same dog you had 5 years ago?
Is your dog hungry?
Now please tell me. Please answer my question: do you understand that those 2 questions mean 2 different things?
Yes or no, do you understand it?
E
ErraticFaith
Guest
Allah and God are nothing alike.
About as different in nature as a Saint and a fascist dictator. It’s bemusing this is even taken seriously (no offense intended to the OP) because it’s quite laughable.
Allah only has love for Islam and it’s adherants. It’s virtually a guidebook on the opposite to Judeo-Christian value.
As such I can’t entertain the idea of a similarity at all.
In a simplified sense; if you can can draw a parallel between Jesus and Muhammad - you must be some sort of magician with the truth. Because history records them as so different, I’m surprised it’s a discussion.
‘I have been made victorious through Terror’ said Muhammad. Do tell me how you draw a line between that and anything Jesus said about loving your neighbour. Should be an amusing exercise in futility to say the least.
About as different in nature as a Saint and a fascist dictator. It’s bemusing this is even taken seriously (no offense intended to the OP) because it’s quite laughable.
Allah only has love for Islam and it’s adherants. It’s virtually a guidebook on the opposite to Judeo-Christian value.
As such I can’t entertain the idea of a similarity at all.
In a simplified sense; if you can can draw a parallel between Jesus and Muhammad - you must be some sort of magician with the truth. Because history records them as so different, I’m surprised it’s a discussion.
‘I have been made victorious through Terror’ said Muhammad. Do tell me how you draw a line between that and anything Jesus said about loving your neighbour. Should be an amusing exercise in futility to say the least.
Last edited:
D
D.Caldera
Guest
I believe it was Hilaire Belloc who once said Islam was a corruption of Catholicism. I believe what he meant is that Muhammad put himself in the place of Christ. In the Koran, you will read, many times, words such as “Allah and the prophet,” or “Allah and his messenger.” This phrase is repeated many, many times. It suggests that one cannot obey Allah and disobey the prophet, or disobey Allah and obey the prophet. As Jesus claimed, “I and the Father are one,” it seems Muhammad tried to usurp the Lord’s place by making his will and intellect equal to God’s.
Therefore, it doesn’t matter if Islam “promotes” belief in the God of Abraham. The point is that it has no authority to define the doctrines or dogmas of God. In virtually all other aspects of faith, other than identifying the “one” God, it is wholly incompatible with Catholicism.
Therefore, it doesn’t matter if Islam “promotes” belief in the God of Abraham. The point is that it has no authority to define the doctrines or dogmas of God. In virtually all other aspects of faith, other than identifying the “one” God, it is wholly incompatible with Catholicism.
A
AlNg
Guest
It is confusing because if a Catholic prays to Jesus he is praying to God and the Muslim will say that he is not praying to God.
A
anikins
Guest
ITT: Zero people who know anything about Islam.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Before answering that, one must first understand what the question itself means.
If you don’t understand the question, what makes you think you can insist on knowing the answer?
H
HarryStotle
Guest
I don’t need to consider whether a particular dog is hungry to grasp what the question under consideration means.HarryStotle:
Before answering that, one must first understand what the question itself means.
If you don’t understand the question, what makes you think you can insist on knowing the answer?
Look, I think it is a legitimate question to ask whether the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New. Some have claimed they are not. It is in actually reconciling the apparent differences between what is said about or by God in the New and Old that we come to better understand that God who is the same in both. The apparent differences can be reconciled, but there is no need to assume that merely because both refer to God that they necessarily refer to the same God or same conception of God.
What if any differences between the two comceptions of God could NOT be reconciled? In that case, since the two conceptions would be logically irreconcilable it rules out the possibility that both conceptions refer to the same God, does it not?
One of the following would have to logically be the case, since, as Aquinas pointed out, only one Uncaused Cause, only one God of classic monotheism could be logically possible:
- One conception properly describes the true God, while the other does not.
- Neither conception properly describes the true God.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Same old thing. You are still confusing the 2 issues.
Which God?
What do they say about God?
Are two different questions. You keep trying to answer the first question by responding to the second question.
Instead, the first question must be asked all by itself. It has its own answer.
Is that the same dog you had five years ago? That is a simple yes or no question. It either is, or it is-not.
and it is simply not the same thing as asking
Is that dog hungry?
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Here, you are over-simplifying the issue. It is not merely because Moslems “refer to God.”
It is because (as I tried to explain to you earlier) that there is a historic continuity between the God of Abraham and the God of the New Testament and the God who would later be mentioned in the Koran.
At no point did anyone stop worshipping that God of Abraham and replace one God with another.
At no point did Mohammed tell his followers to stop believing in the God of Abraham and start believing in a new God whom he introduced.
Instead, he told them the exact opposite. He claimed to be a messenger (prophet) of the very same God that they already worshipped. He claimed to be a messenger of the same God bearing a new message.
You just insist on confusing the message with the God.
L
Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
Islam=Right channel, VERY bad reception
D
De_Maria
Guest
Do you have a source for that? Because if I compare the Islamic attributes of Allah to the Christian attributes of God, they seem totally different.
We can begin with the Christian description that God is love. This is ridiculed by Muslims.
We can also compare the Islamic idea of God’s omnipresence. Which is severely limited compared to the Christian Doctrine that God is transcendent and immanent.
So, they call their deity, God (i.e. Allah). But they describe Him differently and worship Him differently. I, for one, can’t remember reading any ancient Catholic text that agrees that we worship the same God. I do seem to remember some saying that the Muslims worship a demon.
Last edited:
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Yes. Lumen Gentium 16.
Again, as if the past 122 posts didn’t even exist, you just repeat the same faulty logic I’ve been refuting here over and over again.
What God the Muslims worship
is not the same thing as
What do the Muslims say about that God.
D
De_Maria
Guest
No. Lumen Gentium was written in 1964. You said, “We have always known it, from the beginning of Islam.” Islam was founded sometime in the 7th century.
Do you have any source from the 8th, 9th or earlier than the 20th century, which says that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?
Do you have any source from the 8th, 9th or earlier than the 20th century, which says that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?
D
De_Maria
Guest
Which God the Muslims CLAIM to worship is not the same thing as which God they ACTUALLY worship.De_Maria:
Yes. Lumen Gentium 16.
Again, as if the past 122 posts didn’t even exist, you just repeat the same faulty logic I’ve been refuting here over and over again.
What God the Muslims worship
is not the same thing as
What do the Muslims say about that God.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Look, the Church knows this—Christians and Muslims worship the same God; the God of Abraham.
You don’t like that. Fine. Whether you like it or not won’t change the fact.
You say you know better than the Church because you are unable to make a distinction between the God and what people say about the God.
D
De_Maria
Guest
So, you don’t have any source that says that the Church has always known this, from the beginning. That’s all the answer I need. Why the bluster?De_Maria:
Look, the Church knows this—Christians and Muslims worship the same God; the God of Abraham.
You don’t like that. Fine. Whether you like it or not won’t change the fact.
You say you know better than the Church because you are unable to make a distinction between the God and what people say about the God.
Another question. Is the Church infallible in statements of that which other people of other faiths’ believe or just in Catholic Doctrine?
In other words, is it possible that the Catholic Church might be wrong when declaring what Muslims believe? Just a question. Don’t get upset.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
There you go again. Putting words into my mouth. You really do enjoy doing that, for some reason I cannot fathom.
Because you use the same fallacious techniques over and over again; such as putting words into my mouth by claiming that I said something which I did not say.
You also love to ask non-sensical questions and then insist that my silence somehow answers your question.
You know, someone could actually write a philosophy textbook on fallacious arguments using just your posts. It’s amazing. It brings back memories for me. I am actually refreshing my memories of “Philosophy 101” by reading your posts. You actually employ at lease one logical fallacy each and every time you post something.
Please lookup the logical fallacy called “raising the bar.”
What you are trying to claim here is that if this is not taught as “infallible” then neither is it true.
No. It is not possible because the Church is doing nothing more than stating a plain fact.
The Church knows that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. It is a fact. It is not anything that any reasonable, thinking, mature, knowledgeable person tries to deny.
The Church has not “declared” anything. The Church is merely stating a plain fact.
No it is not possible that the Church could be wrong. This is not something that falls into the category of being open to debate or question. The Church observes the fact and recognizes it, in the same way that the Church does not “declare” but rather knows that 2 + 2 = 4 or that the country of Italy is located within the Mediterranean Sea.
D
De_Maria
Guest
It’s a simple question. You’re simply getting upset because you can’t support your statement with facts.
It does, actually. The Catholic Church is infallible when Teaching the Deposit of Faith. Those Teachings which Jesus Christ Taught and commanded to be passed down.
Since when is the Catholic Church infallible in the doctrines of Mohammed?
- Status